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Spoony Exercise 1: Thinking About Your Own Range

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spoonitnow

02-14-2010, 01:59 AM Post subject: Spoony Exercise 1: Thinking About Your Own Range

#1 (permalink)

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The following is an exercise in thinking about ranges and what they mean. After each action Hero makes there will be a number like [1], [2], etc. For each number, list what your range is at that point in the hand if you were Hero and playing this hand for real at the table. That's all there is to it.

Assume 100bb starting stacks. The BU is a nitty TAGG who does not 3-bet very much pre-flop and does not seem to call raises with a wide range of hands. He plays fit-or-fold post-flop for the most part. Assume something like 11/9 in FR or 17/14 in 6-max. The SB is a loose-ish TAGG (think something like 18/15 in FR or 27/24 in 6-max) who 3-bets pre-flop 6% and is capable of 3-bluffing OOP. He also leads a lot of flops, c-bets 85%, and c-bets the turn 60%, being very aggressive. The BB is a complete unknown.

It folds to our Hero pre-flop in the CO who raises to 3 times the big blind [1]. The BU calls, and the blinds fold. The flop pot is 7.5 big blinds, and the flop comes T

. Hero bets 5 big blinds [2] and the BU calls. The turn pot is 17.5 big blinds with 92 big blinds behind. The turn card makes the board T

. Hero bets 13 big blinds [3] and the BU calls. The river pot is 43.5 big blinds with 79 big blinds left behind. The river card makes the board T

. Hero bets 26 big blinds [4], and the button folds.

We're going to use our answers in a later exercise.

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paws

02-14-2010, 08:48 AM Post subject: Re: Spoony Exercise 1: Thinking About Your Own Range

#2 (permalink)

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[1] In the CO, I'd see us open with a rather wide range, especially when the button is tight and not difficult to play against. So I'd say the range would be something like 22+, A5s+, ATo+, KTo+, any suited connector, any connected cards from JTo+.

[2] This is not a very good flop for a c-Bet because of the lack of high cards. But if the button plays fit or fold, I'd assume that he has a high fold-to-cbet, so I'd see us betting the whole range here.

[3] The button has called our c-bet, so obviously his hand has sufficient equity against the T+ (more likely) / overpair (less likely) we're representing, so I guess his range includes a straight draw or a T with good kicker.

Since this the flop didn't have a super drawy board, the straight draw should less than 50% of his range. So I guess it's questionable to 2-barrel with total air here. We might be pricing our river card for our 34/78/89/QK with a straight draw or two spades with a decent high card strength for a flush draw. Or we're betting for value with AT / JT / QQ+ or a set.

[4] So we're betting again. This generally means that either we have no showdown value (like a missed draw) and we are hoping for our opponent to fold a better hand, or we have a very strong hand that might get called by a strong, but weaker hand. Since the board is paired, we could only really expect an Tx type of hand to call, so the non-air part of our range would be 66,55,JJ,JT.

If we do have air, the question remains whether bluffing the river makes any sense. Are there many hands in villains range with showdown value that he'd fold to a bet? I guess not, so I think we'd check the river with air, and we really do have a strong hand here.

inV1NCEble

02-14-2010, 09:24 AM Post subject: Re: Spoony Exercise 1: Thinking About Your Own Range

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by paws

2] This is not a very good flop for a c-Bet because of the lack of high cards. But if the button plays fit or fold, I'd assume that he has a high fold-to-cbet, so I'd see us betting the whole range here.

Should we bet 77-99 here?

Quote:

4] So we're betting again. This means that either we have very little showdown value (like a missed draw)

I personally wouldn't bet a missed fd, the way I see it BU's range is pretty strong and I don't see him folding alot on the river after calling the turn on this board. Only flushdraws, maybe 77-99,56 is unlikely. Hero's small riverbet can be QQ+,JQ+ to b/f. We prob don't have a monster since we would bet bigger if he already showed strength by calling 2 streets.

OMG POKERTRACKER IS RIGGED!

rong

02-14-2010, 10:24 AM

#4 (permalink)

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[1] I'm raising 3bb with 22+, A6s+, K9s+, A9+, KT+, TJ+ 56s+ 79s+

Villains range for calling: 22-66, A9-AJ, 78s-KQs, QT-QJ, KT-KQ,

[2] I am Cbetting with my entire range as I think we get a tight villain to fold over half the time here so it works out profitable.

Villains calling range: 55-66, 78s, T9s- JTs, AT, KT, QT, A9-AJd, KQ-KTd, QJd (Maybe assume he raises with the tptk/tpgk & sets, but IDK as I would raise all of what I've put as his calling range.)

[3] At this point I'm getting concerned and I'm not betting without a hand or a good prospect of hitting one.
My range now for betting 13bb is: 55-66, TT+, 56s, TJs, KQ, A6+(S or D) K9-KT(S or D), 89(S or D)
Villains range for calling: 55-66, 78s, TJs, 9Td, ATd, KQ – KTd, QT-QJd, A9-AJd,

[4] As the J hits on the river what am I betting with? Well, I guess the first question is how much of villains range s calling a bet or raising.

So villains calling or raising range is:55-66, TJs, 9Td, ATd, QTd, QJd, AJd, KTd
Which is 15 hand combinations from his turn calling range of 23.
So I’m raising trips or better = TJ+, 55-66, TT - JJ, AJ(d or s), KJ(d or s).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.

dranger7070

02-14-2010, 12:47 PM

#5 (permalink)

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dranger7070 has a little shameless behaviour in the past

[1] 22+, A2s+, A8o+, K9s+, Q8s+, J8s+, 34s+, 89o+, all broadways. My range is going to be pretty wide here (obviously). Probably wider than normal since the BTN is a nit/TAG basically allowing us to play the BTN twice every orbit. The only thing that keeps my range slightly tighter than it would be otherwise is that the SB is a possibly thinking aggressive player.

[2] For me, this is pretty much an auto c-bet with my entire range. Villain is folding a vast majority of his hands. He's continuing with all PPs, AT, KT, QT, TJ, maybe some overcards like KQ, QJ, AQ, AJ. So this is obviously a +EV cbet.

[3] The turn is a pretty interesting card. When we double barrel the overcard + coordinating board will likely make him fold out all his PPs 22-44, 77-99. It hits a fair portion of our range, improving our TJ-AJ, gives our SCs FDs, and gives us overcards + draws, OESDs, etc. Our sizing makes me think its more of a value bet or betting a strong draw than a double barrel, considering we know the villain in the hand is pretty fit or fold.

[4] Once we fire the the 3rd barrel I'm convinced we have a hand like TT+, TJ-AT, QJ-AJ, and missed draws.

dranger7070

02-14-2010, 12:48 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Obviously 55-66, 56 are in our range too. -.-

inV1NCEble

02-14-2010, 01:20 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Spoon, fix the 6 on the river. It changes color

OMG POKERTRACKER IS RIGGED!

daviddem

02-14-2010, 01:33 PM

#8 (permalink)

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OK.

Preflop

Hero
Preflop my CO steal/opening range is a little tighter than usual because of the loose-aggro SB:
22+,A6s+,K7s+,Q8s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,ATo+,KT o+,QTo+,JTo
This comes to 23% of hands.

Villain
Would re-raise JJ+,AK
Calls a CO raise on the button with 22-TT, AQ-AT, suited connectors 76s+, connectors T9+

Flop

Hero
I know I cbet too much so I made an effort to exclude some hands like big overcards, top pair/dubious kicker and draws with which I would not want to be raised out of the pot with. I excluded 77-99,AKs,QTs,JTs,T9s,T8s,78s,AKo,QTo,JTo, so that leaves me cbetting with TT+,66-22,AQs-A6s,K7s+,QJs,Q9s-Q8s,J9s,97s+,86s,76s,AQo-ATo,KTo+,QJo

Villain
Assume he would raise top pair top kicker and better and fold his air, that leaves him with a draw or top pair with dubious kicker: JT,T9,98s,87s (he calls the c-bet with the gutshot based on implied odds)

Turn

Hero
Now I value bet only my made hands. I do not bet the draws I picked up, as I could be raised out of the hand, and I do not second barrel my air. My betting range is TT+,66-55,AJs-ATs,KJs-KTs,QJs,J9s,AJo-ATo,KJo-KTo
My range against his flop calling range is a 65% favorite.

Villain
He would raise JT, he would fold T9 except Ts9s (low kicker, one overcard and facing a considerable bet) so that leaves only 87s, 98s (with which he just picked up an open ended straight draw) or Ts9s (flush draw). He calls the turn bet with his draws based on implied odds, however I think he is more likely to call the turn bet with combo straight/flush draws than with pure straight or flush draws.

River

Hero
With the T on the river, I will value bet only with my hands that beat his trip T's, should he have it. Why? Because if he does not have trip T, he will not call a bet with the rest of his range, and if he has trip T he will not fold to a bet. So I can bet profitably only with hands that beat trip T's. If I check, since he is straightforward, he will only bet with trip T's, so I can safely fold.
So my river betting range is: JJ-TT,66-55,ATs,KTs,ATo,KTo

Villain
He folds so he obviously did not have Ts9s. That leaves only 98s or 78s, more likely spades.

Are we getting grades for the assignment?

spoonitnow

02-14-2010, 03:17 PM

#9 (permalink)

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inV1NCEble, you're welcome to do the exercise as well.

Donachello

02-14-2010, 03:51 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Donachello will become famous soon enough

[1]In the CO my opening range is going to be 22+, Axs, A9o+, 56s+, QJo+, and broadways like QTo, KTo, KJo, etc. If we are assuming that the BU TAGG is intelligent I'll assume that his range for me is approximately this. Also assuming that my standard open is 3BB not 4BB and that this bet sizing does not say anything about my hand.

[2]Due to the fit-or-fold nature of the BU and preferring to not play OOP I am going to be betting this flop with my entire range expecting any suited connector stuff without a straight draw to be folding here as well as some broadways and weaker Ax hands he may have called with. I am expecting him to call with most hands that got a piece of the board since there is a straight draw and most hands that he may be holding that could have a pair also probably have a straight draw.

If we are to assume that either the villain doesn't pay attention to our table image or that it is good, then my betting range probably excludes a lot of the junky air I raised preflop with though there is certainly some still in there since I am Cbetting my whole range in reality. He may see our range as something like. 55+(assume that we do not slow play the three possible sets), Tx hands where x = 9-A, 56-89, and then some air broadways that I am Cbetting. At this point I feel like our range and villain's range are quite similar though his does not include air and does not include the over pairs though I will include sets in his range at this point but these are the very top and a tiny part of his range.

[3]Betting the turn card (assuming we are not going to be 2-barrel bluffing here often if ever) significantly tightens our range. It still probably includes all the straight draws. It also certainly still includes the Tx hands we had previously, and now excludes most broadways except the ones that caught up on the turn, Jx hands J9+, all the over pairs we had previously, and of course our sets.

His call makes me believe he either has a Tx hand, or a straight draw and probably nothing else at this point. I eliminate sets at this point because I think he is raising by now if he holds one.

[4]The third shell fired by us excludes all our air imo, especially due to the non-stationy nature of the villain. The bet sizing is also telling in that this is a value bet meant to be called by his entire range, though he is not going to be calling with the busted straight draws. That means that his calling range is almost exclusively Tx hands. If we believe he is calling/raising with all the Tx hands which makes up probably close to half of his range then we are obviously not betting anything worse than an KT or AT hand here, maybe QT. I'd say our range at this point is QQ+ and trips or a boat the rest of the time. We will be betting QQ+ simply because he does have a significant portion of missed straight draws in his range. If we were to check these hands we are risking getting bluffed off our hand since his line looks a lot like Tx up to this point and he may be capable of this. So the bottom of our range is QQ-AA and the middle-top of it is QT+, 55, 66, JJ. There's like a 1% chance we hold quads here haha but that means he'd pretty much have to have slow played a set to get here and his fold means obviously this is not the case.

I think mostly he has busted straights here unless he is nitty enough or good enough at ranges to fold a worse T.

[00:29] <daven> dc, why not check turn behind
[00:30] <DC> daven
[00:30] <DC> on my hand?
[00:30] <daven> yep
[00:30] <DC> because I am drunk
[00:30] <daven> nice reason
[00:30] <daven> no further questions
[00:30] <yaawn> ^^Lol

Problem officer...?

rong

02-14-2010, 04:05 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by inV1NCEble

Spoon, fix the 6 on the river. It changes color

I've been assuming a 6 of diamonds, my ranges are well off if you choose clubs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.

spoonitnow

02-14-2010, 04:56 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by inV1NCEble

Spoon, fix the 6 on the river. It changes color

Oh I thought I did earlier but I guess it timed out when I hit submit. Fixed now.

inV1NCEble

02-14-2010, 05:13 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

inV1NCEble, you're welcome to do the exercise as well.

Sure, didn't want to be an ass and try to correct the other guy. I just wanted to show what I would would do differently and ask how others thought about it. (Or maybe you're talking about me saying the suite was wrong, which -you probably know- was just a comment.

I don't have time right now, but I promise to make the exercise first thing tomorow.

Vince

OMG POKERTRACKER IS RIGGED!

rong

02-14-2010, 05:13 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Thanks Spoon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.

JKDS

02-14-2010, 06:53 PM Post subject: Re: Spoony Exercise 1: Thinking About Your Own Range

#15 (permalink)

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[1] 22+, A5o+, A2s+, K9s+, KTo+, Q9o+, Q8s+, J9s+, Jto, and then a bunch of 54s, 65s sc type hands. Im hesitant to raise wider than this because the sb is likely to 3b me (or maybe not because im in the co instead of the bu)...so im trying to raise a bunch to steal the blinds while still not being in terrible shape if called and having the option to 4b bluff some suited aces and kings if it comes down to it. For all i know, the bb can be a calling station as well so i want hands that enjoy seeing flops as much as possible. Maybe i should add a few suited 1 gappers or just connectors but meh.

[2] since bu is nitty and taggish, i dont expect him to call me with stray 5's or 6's except for 65. I dont expect alot of Tx's either except for like At KT, with most of his range being pocket pair type hands.

Because of that, im betting all of my hands that missed in an attempt to get the pocket pairs that arent TT-JJ, and 66,55 to fold. Ill be betting 77 for this reason as well, but not 88 or 99. Im also betting hands that are or beat Tx for value against his AT, KT combos, and betting and type of draw. So that leaves

22-77, TT-AA, 43s, 54s, 65s, 76s, 87s, 98s, A2+, K9+, Q9+, J9+

[3] I dont really see a point in barrelling here. if he called with 98 or 87 then hes going to call again. 88 and 99 would fold here, but thats pretty much it. He likely doesnt have TT, 66, 55, 65, anymore cuz he'll raise most of the time, so he likely has a Tx type hand, 99, 88, or 98s, 87s...but the draws are unlikely imo.

So in that case im not betting as a bluff cuz there are more tx combos, so ill be betting

55,66, TT+, 65, AT, KT, AJ, KJ, QJ, JT

[4] Now hes got Tx and some discounted shit i dropped eariler (draws of some kind, maybe a straggling 99). Still value betting.

55, 66, TT+, AT, KT, JT. Cant really bet with 65, or a jack anymore though which kinda sucks. He folds, so he had some shitty hand i missed and i find out that i probably play bad against 11/9 fit fold tags

Quote:

Originally Posted by OngBonga

But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.

Shifter

02-14-2010, 11:35 PM

#16 (permalink)

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[1] 22+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,ATo+,KT o+,QTo+,JTo. With the SB being fairly agressive, I certainly wouldn't bet a wider range. Not sure there's a great deal more to say at this point. I'd still be fairly cautious.

[2] I think I'd probably bet with the whole range. Villain is a TAGG so a bet at this point may cause him to fold A5s or similar

[3] I'd be going for something along the lines of TT+,66-55,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,AQo+,KQo. Lower pocket pairs have been eliminated as have lower suited connectors and hands like QTo and JTo. 13BB is substantially larger than the flop bet and I'd be betting for value only.

[4] TT+,AJs-ATs,KJs-KTs,QTs+,JTs
It has narrowed considerably and of course the danger is that he's got a T making trips. I think from the passive way villain has played that it's also possible for him to be holding some missed overcards - AK, AQ etc. So still a value bet.

Sasquach991

02-15-2010, 01:12 AM

#17 (permalink)

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[1] 22+, A2s+, A9o+, KTo+, K9s+, 45s+, AKs, AKo, QJs, QJo, JTo

[2] Entire range from [1]

[3] 56s, JTo, JTs, QQ+, 55, 66, TT, JJ+, JT

[4] TT, JT, QQ+

"Just cause I'm from the South don't mean I ain't got no book learnin'"

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

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rpm

02-15-2010, 03:47 AM

#18 (permalink)

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bit late but:

[1] 22+, A2s+, A9o+, K8s+, KTo+, Q8s+, Q9o+, J9s+, J9o+, suited connectors 45-9T

[2] 22-77, 56s, 78s, 89s, TT+, all suited and off-suit Tx hands, any backdoor nut or K high FD

[3] 22-77, 56s, 78s, 89s, all sets, all overpairs, TJs, TJo, and any Asxs, Ksxs. at this point i can see villain having a lot of middlish pocker pairs 55-JJ, so i leave 22,33,44 as well as 89s, 78s in my turn betting range in hope of forcing a mistake from 77,88,99 and any other weak one pair hands in villains range (T9s, T8s, 45s, 67s). this is also why i'm betting any turned flush draws.

[4] against this villain on this river i'm only value betting: TT,JJ,TJ,KT,QT,QQ+

seems i'm less of a flop cbettor than most of the other responders, hmm..

inV1NCEble

02-15-2010, 12:03 PM

#19 (permalink)

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PF: Hero: 22+,A2s+,A7o+,KTs,78o+,45s+,BW's
Villain: 66-JJ,AQ-T,KJ+,QJ+ (accually I think the 66 is kinda marginal)
Reasoning: BU is nit so we're playing the BU most of the time.

F: Hero: entire range except maybe 77-99
villain: 66-JJ,AT,(AQ-J,KQ-J,QJ sometimes) and maybe some hands to float if he's a floater
reasoning: Good board to cBet except when we know villain will float his OC's like include in the villain range

T: hero:55-66,TT+,56s,JT,Flushdraws
Villain: AT,(AJ,KJ,QJ), FD's
Reasoning: When he calls the turnbet, I am more inclined to believing he called the flop with a marginal hand because he is never just calling with a set or JT

R: hero; QQ+,Tx
Villain: AT-J,KJ,QJ
Reasoning: The turnbet is rather small, prob trying to get value from a marginal hand like Jx or maybe a missed FD

I find this exercise very hard. Firstly I didn't include the AT in villain's PF and OC's in the postflop callingrange, but then what the hell would he just call on the turn with? I'm hoping we get some kind of a 'solution' from spoon

OMG POKERTRACKER IS RIGGED!

ARK

02-15-2010, 02:51 PM

#20 (permalink)

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[1] 22+, Axs+, A9+, 23s+, 24s+ all Broadway combinations

[2] Entire Range based on BBs fit-or-fold image

[3] QJ+,TJ+, TT+, 55, 66, 78, 89, spade draw

[4] AT, TT, JJ, 55, 66. Bluff catching with worse tens and probably overpairs

Monty3038

02-15-2010, 03:40 PM Post subject: Re: Spoony Exercise 1: Thinking About Your Own Range

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

. Hero bets 5 big blinds [2] and the BU calls. The turn pot is 17.5 big blinds with 92 big blinds behind. The turn card makes the board T

. Hero bets 13 big blinds [3] and the BU calls. The river pot is 43.5 big blinds with 79 big blinds left behind. The river card makes the board T

. Hero bets 26 big blinds [4], and the button folds.

We're going to use our answers in a later exercise.

[1] My range in CO to open, based upon the description of the players to follow, is 22+, Axs, A9o+, KTs+, KJo, QJs and sometimes QJo, SC's down to 67.

[2] My range now has narrowed a bit, but not much, I'd take out the QJ, KX hands that didn't pair, but the rest of the range is pretty much in there, this board is pretty dry so I'm probably c-betting about 80% of the time here.

[3] My range narrowed when the button called my c-bet. Now I'm only continuing with AJ, AT, TT+, 55, 66, KQ, Axspades, 89s.

[4] With button continuing to call, this forces me to be concerned he has hit a hand, and since he is nitty, yet not being aggressive at this point, I need to beat probably a pair of tens or jacks. That puts my range to 55,66,tt+, AJ+, AT, Tx. Unless I've decided to total bluff it, which I'm going to leave out a range for that, as it wouldn't matter, I'd say preceding range is most accurate.

EasyPoker

02-16-2010, 10:49 PM Post subject: Re: Spoony Exercise 1: Thinking About Your Own Range

#22 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

. Hero bets 5 big blinds [2] and the BU calls. The turn pot is 17.5 big blinds with 92 big blinds behind. The turn card makes the board T

. Hero bets 13 big blinds [3] and the BU calls. The river pot is 43.5 big blinds with 79 big blinds left behind. The river card makes the board T

. Hero bets 26 big blinds [4], and the button folds.

We're going to use our answers in a later exercise.

Only just saw this thread. Be gentle with me...

1) 33+, A6s+, K8s+, QTs+, JTs, 87s+, ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo+

2) As above

3) 55, 66, TT+, AT+, KT+, QT+, JT+, T9, 78+,

4) 55, 66, TT+, AT-AJ,KT-KJ,QT-QJ

kiwiMark

02-19-2010, 11:33 PM

#23 (permalink)

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[1] {22+, A2s+, A9o+, K8s+, K9o+, Q9s+, QTo+, JT, 54s+, 75s+}

[2] On this dry a flop against a fit/fold player, I cbet my entire range except for: {44, 77-99, A5s-A6s, 75s-86s, 54s, 76s }

[3] {55-66, TT-JJ, QQ+, A2ss-A3ss, A7ss-AKss, AJ, K8ss+, KJ-KQ, Q9s, QJ, JT, 65s, 98s, 87ss+, 97ss+}

[4] {55-66, TT-JJ, QQ+, JT}

surviva316

02-26-2010, 12:45 AM

#24 (permalink)

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surviva316 will become famous soon enough

Better late than never?

[1] : {A2s+, A7o+, K8o+, K7s+, Q9o+, Q8s+, J9s+, 87o+, 54s+, 22+, 75s+, T7s+}
It’s somewhat unfortunate because we have a PERFET chance to steal a whole bunch of buttons, but we can’t widen our range too much, or we’ll become extremely exploited by SB’s 3b’s (and we mainly wanna be continuing for value against his 3b’s based on his postflop reads).

[2] : Pretty much entire range. The only part of his range that improved is 55/66/TT-QQ and the occasional 65s, 87s, T9s and JTs (but based on preflop reads, he doesn’t even always have these). Most interesting hands in our range imo are Tx and QQ-JJ. I’m pretty certain we bet everything better for value and turn everything worse into a bluff, but these hands are difficult for me. I think I would always bet QQ-JJ in practice because it protects our hand and at least gives him the opportunity to make a mistake with the occasional Tx and draw. I think AT-QT is interesting, and am pretty sure JT-T7 is a c/c.

[3] : {As2s+, Ks7s+, Qs8s+, 5s4s+, 7s5s+, Q9, 87, 98, KQ, AQ+, 55/66/TT+, 65s, JT}
Very thin value range, and this card isn’t an awesome card to bluff (especially because he continues with a strong range), so I’m only doing it with 8+ outs (still doing it with 8+ outs, though, ‘cause he peels flop with 77-99 sometimes and can fold T9s or the occasional ATs here).

[4] : {JT, JJ, TT, 66, 55}
Seriously. TBH, even 55 is close. Not even considering contuing with bluffs here since all draws missed and now the once marginal hands we might be able to get him off of have tripped up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

heist

02-26-2010, 03:13 AM

#25 (permalink)

One Pair

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 20

I'm going to try this without reading other people's replies first.

1 - 22+, A9o+, A4s+, K8s+ Q9s+, T9s+, J9s+, T9s, KTo+, QTo+, JTo

2 - 55+, ATo, A4s-ATs, KTs-KJs, Q9s-QJs, J9s-JTs, T9s, KTo-KQo, QTo-QJo, JTo

3 - 55+, ATo, A5s,-ATs, KTs-KJs, Q9s-QJs, J9s-JTs, T9s, KTo-KQo, QTo-QJo, JTo

4 - 77-99, A5s-A6s, Q9s, KQo

That took me so long to do, how can we tell how accurate our answer was?

And how are we supposed to do this quickly in a game? Is it something that will come once I practice over and over?

Vinland

02-26-2010, 08:21 PM

#26 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2008

Location: Between a couple of points.

Posts: 610

Vinland is an unknown quantity at this point

1) I am a nit until I hit the BTN so my range is: 22-AA, QJ, KT+, A9o+, A8s+ b/c we have one fairly loose player and an unkown in blinds.

2) Vs a fit or fold player I bet the same range. I don't check b/c he's not bluffing enough to make trapping worthwhile.

3) 55, 66, TT+, AT, AJ, KT, KJ

4) AT, KT, 55, 66, TT, JJ

I confess in quicksand

Robin

03-02-2010, 03:04 AM

#27 (permalink)

Two Pair

Join Date: Dec 2007

Location: Waterloo, ON

Posts: 33

Ok, let's try this.

[1] 22+, AT+, KJ+, A7s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s.

[2] value: 55, 66, TT-AA, bluff: 78s, 89s, any 2 missed overcards.

[3] value: 55, 66, TT, JJ, KK, AA, bluff: {78, 89 of whatever suit}, {AK, AQ, KQ of spades}.

[4] value: 55, 66, TT, JJ, bluff: all my draws from the turn that missed.

Erpel

03-02-2010, 01:37 PM

#28 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2008

Posts: 605

[1]
First thought is that at CO I'll probably open a 30ish% range with any hand with potential.
Something like: 22-AA, A2s+, ATo+, 32s+, 53s+, 96s+, 65o+. QTo+, KTo

Adjusting to opponents as follows:

BTN:
He's a nitty TAG so I can steal the BTN. I can extend my open range to something near a BTN opening range because he very frequently folds and I will then be likely to playing in position with the initiative. I could extend my range with some suited kings, maybe queens and offsuit aces and maybe the occasional offsuit one-gapper.

If he calls I will tend to proceed with caution if I don't flop big as his pre-flop calling range will be strong (mostly pairs and the occasional often suited overcard situation - if we both hit he'll often have me outkicked.) So if a pot looks to build I'll only continue with something very close to the nuts. That said, since he is fit-or-fold he's certainly not the worst opponent to play a pot against OOP. I will bluff a lot of air against him if the flop misses his range a lot or he checks the flop behind and the turn blanks.

SB:
First thought is danger danger and I should play more straightforward (hands with hand equity) and exploit this aggressive, bluffy opponent thus (by him bluffing into my strong hand equity). This suggests stripping out weaker hands from my pre-flop range. Since he 3bets a decent amount I need to adjust by either betting fewer hands or calling more 3bets pre-flop (or both).

However, once I stop being scared of his aggression I see it as exploitable in other ways also. Since he's not a complete maniac he's likely to be playing aggressively as an adjustment to other people folding too much. He's likely to have some rudimentary hand reading going on and since he's betting with a very wide and weak range, it is probably profitable to bluff him. He will respect overt shows of strength - particularly fake commit-looking bets - and tend to fold many of his bluffs. This suggests that occasionally raising the flop or the turn with air is profitable against this opponent on steal equity alone. If he checks flop or turn he's likely either intending to check/raise with a monster or pot controlling a medium strength hand so I would not bluff in those situations. I would assume he most often leads with his draws. Similarly, calling 3 streets with any pair will sometimes be profitable (especially if obvious draws don't complete). If he bets the flop and checks the turn he will often have a weak made hand that he wants to pot control with, and then I have to make a read based on the board and my image if I can bluff him off it. He will probably not be too reluctant to fold if my story makes sense.

The 3bet situation is worth noting. Since he's aggressive a 3bet pot is likely to make him greedy and I would assume that his cbet in 3bet pots is near 100% - so lots of missed hands in there and lots of value for me. I'm guessing his 3bet range is mostly suited and offsuit aces down to AT, QQ+ and the occasional suited connecter. Against his pre-flop 3bet I'd call all pairs (including AA/KK because I think it'll be more profitable to let him hang himself) intending to call down any pair (including flopped ones) all the way on safe-looking boards. Additionally I would flat big suited aces and some suited connector type hands. The suited hands will become flop AI semi-bluff shoves (over his inevitable cbet) when they flop a draw like gutshot+back door flush or better. The suited big aces likewise when they are overcards.

The observation is that I wouldn't want to fold something pre-flop that I would want to play post-flop against this opponent. That said, I don't think that greatly impacts my pre-flop opening range, but I do think I need to take back out some of the hands I considered putting in due to the BTN since they just flop a tad too weakly.

BB:
This opponent being a complete unknown confirms the idea to play straight forward. I will tend to bluff less often against this opponent and show a lot of respect if he wants to build a big pot. Checking a hand down to a showdown that I might be able to bluff him off may be an acceptable small EV loss because I get to see his cards and can start learning how he thinks. Again this confirms me in not further widening my opening range.

Final range: 22-AA, A2s+, ATo+, 32s+, 53s+, 96s+, 65o+. QTo+, KTo

[2]
I get called by the fit-or-fold player, which means there is definitely value in bluffing the flop as he will fold a enough that it is immediately profitable. However, I do not agree with the bet size for a bluff. The flop is super-dry. While 65 on the board does allow 87 and similar to have straight draws, 87 is not in this opponens pre-flop calling range. AT isn't guaranteed to be in it either. Therefore I do not have to worry about pricing out draws and betting 4bb or maybe even 3bb when bluffing is more profitable since he will fold anyway when he has missed, and it's cheaper when he doesn't fold and I'm behind. Normally I would bet my value and nut hands the same amount as I would my bluff hands for deception.

However, since this example is with a different bet size and a fit-or-fold player can be exploited with bet sizes also I could certainly justify having a strong range be the basis for the 5bb bet. Just like he will fold to any bet size when he has nothing you could argue that he would continue to any bet size when he has something. Any reasonable bet size that is.

With made pairs JT and worse I would check and see what he does. Facing a bet I would likely fold the lot. If he checks behind I would likely fire the lot on a non-Q+ turn and expect him to fold (and otherwise shut down). On Q+ turns I'd check again and if he checks behind I'd bet/fold Tx and better on the river for value (if board is safe) expecting him to call worse pocket pairs. If board is scary I'd be tempted to convert the whole range into a bluff on the river. Probably a 1/2 PSB size bluff.

Ok, back to my flop range. I bet 5bb because I expect to make money when he calls. So I'm either ahead of his calling range or I have a hand with good implied odds if he calls. Ahead of his calling range - I hesitate to put weak top pairs in that range. Maybe even overpairs. If I have AA and he continues in the hand and builds a big pot - am I happy to stack off? Probably not. With an overpair I would probably benefit more from checking and betting the later streets for value. If I then put in a bet on turn and river and get called I'd feel ok about AA. Minimum is probably around an 8-out draw.

While I like backdoor flush draws especially with overcards (like KsQs) I'm just not seeing that I would bet those 5bb. I would tend to bet those 4bb. If the bet size had been 4bb I'd have a range with the vast majority of my pre-flop raising range, but I see the 5bb bet size as one that expects to be profitable when called so I only have really strong hands betting 5bb along with some semi-bluffs for implied odds when they hit.

Final range: TT,66-55,87s,65s,43s,87o,65o

[3]
When he calls, I detect strength. Others have mentioned that he would raise with sets, and I don't really agree. While I am in this case putting 87 in my own range I also already said that I think for the fit-or-folder the bet size is not a cause for alarm and I would think my perceived range is very wide. If he wants to get value from it, he'd be wanting to let me keep bluffing. I would expect him to raise sets on the turn if a flush draw or likely straight draw presents itself and otherwise hold off with the raise to the river when he could shove. He has position. With the set or overpair he would definitely bet if I check any street. I think his calling range here is mainly sets, overpairs (JJ-QQ mainly as he would usually 3bet AA-KK pre) and the occasional AT/KT hand. Occasionally 77-99 will also call to keep me honest.

With the Js on the turn my hand range doesn't really improve. JT is certainly in my perceived range, but not in my actual range. If I bet here, I expect the opponent to fold 77-99 and raise 55, 66, TT, JJ calling only with QQ and AT/KT. That's 18 combos of folds, 12 combos of raises and 30ish combos of calls. At this time I have 9 combos of sets, 9 combos of two pair and 20 combos of straight draws in my range. The implied odds of my straight draw is poor. If I bet and I'm called he'll likely fold to a river bet if I complete. Steal equity is not horrible. He doesn't fold the turn often enough to be profitable, and if he calls turn will likely fold the river if a spade, a 9 or a 2 comes. That's pretty thin and I don't think my straight draws are justified betting hands. Not even 8s7s or 4s3s. My two pair hands probably bet. If called I can easily make another bet on many rivers (not T+) for value. If raised I can confidently fold. With my sets I'm betting and stacking off if raised just because you never know when someone mis-reads the board, overvalues their hand or is full of shit even if they are fit-or-fold.

Final range: TT,66-55,65s,65o

[4]
My two pair hands are counterfeited, so they can't bet. QQ and AT/KT hands that I put him on are now both beating me. I think sets are more unlikely because he did not raise the turn. I bet my sets/quads.

Final range: TT, 66-55

When the opponent folds I put him on QQ.

I've been detailed in my thought process in the hope that any respondents will critique my thought process and tell me where and why it is weak.

Penyamon

03-12-2010, 07:13 AM

#29 (permalink)

High Card

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 8

[1]
broadway
22+
a5s
a9o
t9s, j9s, q9s, k9s

(My standard CO range ~ 22%)

[2]
broadway
55, 66
A5s, A6s
T9s

[3]
QQ+
sets
spade draw
JT, KJo, KQo

(I usually double barrel all my draws)

[4]
TT+
55,66

(bet fold QQ+)

scfc_andy15

03-23-2010, 10:39 AM

#30 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 123

1 - I am raising pre-flop here with 22+, A2s+, A8o+, K9s+, K10o+, J8s+, Q9o+, 108o+, 97s+, 87o+, 54s+
The reason why I am raising with such a wide range is because the button is tight and I expect him to fold most of the time so I can have position on the blinds especially the small blind who is agressive.

2 - I am c-betting the entire range above with the exception of 77-1010
The reason behind this is that if he is playing fit or fold post flop and with 11/9 stats pre-flop. He isn't continuing with anything that beats 77-99 so it isn't folding worse out and if he does call I probably only have 2 outs and don't know where I stand in the hand. The reason behind checking 1010 behind is that having two tens makes a few hands more unlikely that he would be continuing with A10, J10s etc, so I would prefer checking that back and letting him to try and catch up on the turn.

3 - I bet again 2/3 of the pot, I am splitting my betting into 2 groups here
Value and semi bluffs.
Value - 66,55, JJ-AA, J10, AJ
Semi bluffs - 78, 98, KQ, Q9, AQss, AKss

I think that I am betting this hands on the turn again, as he has shown that is fit or fold previously and he called the flop he looks like he has something or is floating. The value bets are too gain calls from hands we are ahead of, and the semi bluffs give us a chance to win the pot right now without having to see a river. (I am not sure if this is the best way to do this but I this would be close to the exact range I would be continuing with here.)

4 - I bet again little less than 2/3 pot, this with me is basically always a value bet with a bluff thrown in very rarely if ever.
My range here would be - 66,55,JJ,J10

I dont know if I have done this right but I thought I would have a go

"Whether he likes it or not, a man's character is stripped bare at the poker table; if the other players read him better than he does, he has only himself to blame. Unless he is both able and prepared to see himself as others do, flaws and all, he will be a loser in cards, as in life."

Donachello

03-30-2010, 01:19 AM

#31 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2009

Location: TROLOLOLOLOL

Posts: 849

Decided to go back and redo all of these for practice. Already noticed some stuff I missed from the last time around just re-reading the instructions.

Assume 100bb starting stacks. The BU is a nitty TAGG who does not 3-bet very much pre-flop and does not seem to call raises with a wide range of hands. He plays fit-or-fold post-flop for the most part. Assume something like 11/9 in FR or 17/14 in 6-max. The SB is a loose-ish TAGG (think something like 18/15 in FR or 27/24 in 6-max) who 3-bets pre-flop 6% and is capable of 3-bluffing OOP. He also leads a lot of flops, c-bets 85%, and c-bets the turn 60%, being very aggressive. The BB is a complete unknown.

It folds to our Hero pre-flop in the CO who raises to 3 times the big blind [1]. The BU calls, and the blinds fold. The flop pot is 7.5 big blinds, and the flop comes T 6 5 . Hero bets 5 big blinds [2] and the BU calls. The turn pot is 17.5 big blinds with 92 big blinds behind. The turn card makes the board T 6 5 J . Hero bets 13 big blinds [3] and the BU calls. The river pot is 43.5 big blinds with 79 big blinds left behind. The river card makes the board T 6 5 J T . Hero bets 26 big blinds [4], and the button folds.

[1] The first time I did this my range was very wide. This time, however, I'll take into account the unknown and the loose-ish TAGG. Based on that I'm still opening pretty wide but also making sure my range isn't too wide as to get exploited by the bluffy TAGG, should he call preflop(even though he doesn't). 22+, JTs+, A5s+, A9o+, KQo, T9s+, suited broadways looks good to me here.

[2] The flop is dry-ish but not so much that it couldn't have hit the villain's (in position) range pretty well. Based on that I'd like to think my range here is going to be something like 22+, any T in my aforementioned range, A8s+ and A9o+, as well as KQ+.

[3] Betting 55, 66, TT+, T9ss+, Broadways with a J in them, and A8ss+.

[4] Betting this with most of the above range. Though since it feels valuey to me I'm probably excluding all bluffs except maybe AKss and AQss. fwiw I feel like villain's range is a lot of 99, 89ss, J9, QJ, maybe 76ss and KQss though I'd think he would maybe raise those combo draws.

Imthenewfish

04-28-2010, 03:36 AM

#32 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2010

Location: sites im allowed to play on

Posts: 945

[1] 22+,any 2 broadway, Axs, A8o,K9o,Q10o, Any suited connector

[2] 22+,any 2 broadway, Axs, A8o,K9o,Q10o, Any suited connector
(Betting almost any flop against a nit whos playing fit or fold postflop?)

[3] A set, QQ+, A10,K10,

[4] A set, A10,K10

unclesteve

04-30-2010, 11:34 AM

#33 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2010

Posts: 104

[1]

A8+
22+
most SCs- 56s+
suited one gappers- 86+
any broadways

[2]
i cbet that flop w/everything

[3]
J9+,
T8+
SCs w/FDs
sets- 2pair hands
OESDs
overpairs

[4]
T8+,
J9+
sets, 2pair
no missed draws cos he's usually not folding river here.
overpairs

sven00100

06-19-2010, 05:10 AM

#34 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2009

Location: Minnesota

Posts: 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

. Hero bets 5 big blinds [2] and the BU calls. The turn pot is 17.5 big blinds with 92 big blinds behind. The turn card makes the board T

. Hero bets 13 big blinds [3] and the BU calls. The river pot is 43.5 big blinds with 79 big blinds left behind. The river card makes the board T

. Hero bets 26 big blinds [4], and the button folds.

We're going to use our answers in a later exercise.

Preflop:: Standard for me on CO is going to be a little wider given that the BU will fold often and I don't worry about much action behind, SB will be easier to play against post-flop, and I'll consider BB to be a standard player at my limit, knowing nothing else.

We'll say I'm opening CO here mostly like I'd open the BU standard so:
Face cards, 45s-9Ts, AXs, PP, 57s-8Ts

Flop:
given that he's pretty nitty pre, this is a happy flop for me.. though my range would bet only some for value, I'm c-betting here near 100% just to pick up the pot. Standard bet sizing, no super scary draws, so we'll say flop is also:
Face cards, 45s-9Ts, AXs, PP, 57s-8Ts

Turn:
he could be drawing if he was calling SC in position knowing something about the SB, but since it says he's not playing a wide range of hands, we'll assume he isn't drawing:
JT+, QT+, QJ+, KQ, QQ+, JJ, TT, 66, 55, 56s, 78s, 89s, AsXs,

River:
he called our turn bet - his range is pretty narrow for the river, however given we led the flop and continued this is a scary river. I assume fit/fold isn't folding many hands here, so the bluffs will go out the window:
JT, any T in my range, QQ+, sets (house on riv), any J in my range

EasyPoker

06-19-2010, 05:28 PM

#35 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2009

Posts: 753

Just doing these again for the hell of it:

[1] 22+,A9s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,43 s,32s,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

[2] 55+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,43s ,32s,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

[3] 99+,66-44,A9s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,43s,32s,AJo,KJo ,QJo,JTo

[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb

Outlaw

06-19-2010, 09:45 PM

#36 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Awesome spot... much much better than if you switch out the bu and sb. But that's neither here nor there. My ranges are:

1- Open anything suited, and pair, any Ace, any king, and two cards 10 or over. Actually its probably profitable to open any two here a lot. Depends on their FTS.. but with limited information the above works. Easy to steal the button here. A lot of good 4-bet and 3 barrel opportunities. Looking to exploit the buttons passiveness and the sb's looseness on two fronts.
2- C-bet any two. All of the buttons broadways missed. Planning to barrel the turn/river no matter what comes to get him off most of his pairs.
3- No draws got there, my cards don't matter. I am barreling here 100% on that turn jack. It misses his entire range.. JJ would have raised the flop. 1010, 66, 55 are still in his range but they all will raise me here a lot. After firing this turn I am betting the river no matter what comes. Too much money here and nearly his entire range will have to fold.
4- 26 bbs looks good here for my entire range except for 55, 66, TT, JJ, 10x.. I shove all of those hands a lot to get value from his hero calls and his nut type hands that I beat. I am not worried about balancing if this is micros.. if this is mid stakes or above I balance by shoving bluffs here and again. The only hands I am not betting here are my showdown value hands.. I likely check those hands anyways.. so remove those from my above barreling ranges. (6x, 5x, Jx, 77-99 for the purposes of this example)

Alternatively, if the SB had flatted I am raising his flop lead 100% with nearly my entire range or checking behind everything but my value range. If he leads the turn after that I will once again raise/fold and then barrel the river almost always. Fighting aggression with more aggression. This flop hits a lot of his range but he won't be able to stand much pressure on the turn and river cards. These lines also condition him not to mess with me in the future.. meta game BS etc. depending on what shows down.

Edit: Oops didn't notice how old this thread is. Oh well still fun to participate.

amifat

06-22-2010, 06:04 AM

#37 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2008

Location: Sydney, Australia

Posts: 92

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

I think this is the best post iv read so far, I started posting for ages and then lost it all when my work closed my notepad file

, I think by effectively tripple barreling here, we are smashing him because he folds alot of his better hands and the Top of his range we are lossing to, but he is not getting heaps of money from us.

This is the first time I thought about this and posted:

Quote:

BU = nitty tagg, 17/14 6-m, SB = Loose TaGG, 27/24 6-m, 3b 6% capable 3b bluffing, donks lots of flops high cb 85%, cb trn 60%

[1] This is about 40% on stove and my stnd stealing range, It does change depending on nitfags and whalefags.

22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,A 2o+,K7o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o,98o,87o,76o

[2]
Alot, if not almost all of my range, I think hes calling with like:
AT, 55-AA, KT-JT, and part of that range he might of 3b PF, I think sometimes he might call with AKs or AQs (With a backdoor redraw) because I steal and cbet lots, but if hes totaly fit and fold probably not.

I Don't know if I would bet any of my sets here, I guess vs a vill like this you need to bet, because they are going to be a NITfag and probs c back the flap, because most of the things he calls with PF are not in his range.
[3]
I think at this stage, I am betting the turn most of the time for value.

Ok at this stage it seems clear that vill is not drawing, could but rarely has high overs and most likely has a pocket pair, So i think a large fraction of my range is going to be cut out and I will only be continueing with my large draws / TPGK type hands, 2 Pairs, Sets.

So my range here is AsXs, KsQs, AJ, AT, KJ, J9, QJ, JT, JJ, TT, 66, 55, 8s9s, T9-T6s, 65.
[4]
I think at this stage, with how vill would have played, he should be raising this turn with alot of his sets, Unless I have been tripple barrel bluffing lots, Therefor I think vills range comes up mostly as:
AA-QQ(Not very often), 99-77(Most of the time), Few Tx.

So really I should be betting my entire turn range on the river, as i think hes playing bad by calling 2 streets and don't expect him to call river unless he has a monster that he has misplayed, or he is going to pay me off.

I think my flop and turn play is fine, but for some reason I get all nitty at the turn and river, I think my range is too narrow and I should widen it here as players who are being tight preflop and stations post-flop deserve to be exploited more.

♦♣♥♠ "Common sence isn't really that common" ♦♣♥♠

NightGizmo

08-20-2010, 11:33 PM

#38 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2010

Posts: 268

Working my way through the exercises, finally....

1) The button is so tight, my range here is basically the same as my range on the button.
{ 22+, A8o+, A2s+, K2s+, KTo+, QTo+, QTs+, JTo, JTs, 87s-T9s, T9o }

2) With only the button in the hand, I cbet my entire range because he plays fit or fold. If he continues, I reevaluate and play based on my hand strength.
{ 22+, A8o+, A2s+, K2s+, KTo+, QTo+, QTs+, JTo, JTs, 87s-T9s, T9o }

3) He called our bet, so he has some piece of the board. Bet our value hands (TPTK+) and barrel with hands that have decent equity (flush/straight draws).
{ 55, 66, TT-AA, JTo, JTs, Asxs, Ksxs, 7s8s, KQo, KQs, AJo }

4) After this fit/fold villain calls two streets, I don't see myself bluffing anything on the river. This bet is for value.
{ 55, 66, TT, JJ, JTo, JTs, AsTs, KsTs }

HarleyGuy13

08-23-2010, 05:39 AM

#39 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Oregon

Posts: 1,226

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

. Hero bets 5 big blinds [2] and the BU calls. The turn pot is 17.5 big blinds with 92 big blinds behind. The turn card makes the board T

. Hero bets 13 big blinds [3] and the BU calls. The river pot is 43.5 big blinds with 79 big blinds left behind. The river card makes the board T

. Hero bets 26 big blinds [4], and the button folds.

Ok I spend way to much time telling myself why I can't do things: "I've not the math skills these guys do" "I'm to old to learn new tricks" etc. Well truth be told I'm just fucking lazy so WTF I'm going to give it a try!

1.) 22+/87s+/J9s+/KT+/A2s+/A8+

2.) Really most of my entire range is good with this flop and I/we know villian is tight so we c-bet it all figuring fold equity if nuttin else. (T

)

3.) villian called so we know he's got a piece of it. We bet 13 bb's into 17.5 so we are strong: {55,66,87s,J9,JT,AT,AJ} (T

)

4.) "Hero bets 26 big blinds" leads me to believe we want a call and are really hoping he's hit it good cuz we want a call. {55,66,AT,JT} (T

)

So I'm sitting here thinking I'm probably going to get flamed but wtf I'm trying! This took me a long time to do.

"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it

ButtonMash

08-31-2010, 08:21 AM

#40 (permalink)

One Pair

Join Date: Aug 2010

Posts: 18

I've read through Spoony's exercises on may occasions but have never responded, mostly due lack of knowledge and experience. I felt that I needed to learn more and improve before actually contributing to the forum. However, although I have undoubtedly absorbed a lot of information from these pages,
I'm not translation this into a net improvement that can be measured in dollars, so I need to do something!
I just looked at the date on the latest post which indicates that this thread is still 'alive' so I thought I'd give it a go.

1. For me, the fact that BTN is a nitty Tagg would mean that I would open with 22+,AJo+,ATs+, 67s+.
Sometimes (maybe 33%) I would open Axs, KQo, QJo, with very occasionally any connecting cards.

2. I continue with virtually all my range as it's not a very useful looking flop and he may well fold to a cbet.

3. He called so there must be something he likes, or nothing to scare him. I bet turn with 55,66,TT+, AT, flush draws and straight draws.

4. Again he calls. No flushes or straights. I think anything with moderate showdown value here I would check back, so I bet with 55, 66, TT+. I don't want to bluff missed draws very often as I play micros and am told this is a baaaad way to think. If raised I fold everything except 55, 66, TT, JJ.

I've tried to do this excercise without reference to other contributions since I'm the only one likely to benefit from my efforts here.
I am open to constructive criticism for precisely this reason.

pdk1010

09-06-2010, 11:08 PM

#41 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2009

Posts: 71

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

. Hero bets 5 big blinds [2] and the BU calls. The turn pot is 17.5 big blinds with 92 big blinds behind. The turn card makes the board T

. Hero bets 13 big blinds [3] and the BU calls. The river pot is 43.5 big blinds with 79 big blinds left behind. The river card makes the board T

. Hero bets 26 big blinds [4], and the button folds.

We're going to use our answers in a later exercise.

1. 22+,A2s+,K2s+,QTs+,JTs,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,54 s,A8o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

btn calling range:

22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,5 4s,A8o+,KTo+,QTo+

this is an ats range for me, bu is nit(folds alot here) sb is only continuing ~1 out of every 4 times and although bb is unknown we have position and can play this range very well against him if he calls
-----------------------------------------

2. given that bu is fit or fold im cbetting this entire range, he is folding way way way to often here and i want to exploit that.

btn calling range:

TT+,66-55,ATs,A6s-A5s,KTs,QTs,JTs,T8s+,87s,65s,54s,ATo,KTo,QTo+
---------------------------------------------

3.TT+,66-55,AcJc,AdJd,AhJh,AcTc,AdTd,AhTh,As9s,As8s,As7s,As 6s,As5s,As4s,As3s,As2s,KJs-KTs,Ks9s,Ks8s,Ks7s,Ks6s,Ks5s,Ks4s,Ks3s,Ks2s,QTs+,J Ts,97s+,65s,AJo-ATo,KJo-KTo,QTo+,JTo

we have 52% equity against villains continuing range to our turn bet with this range and our bet is good for value.
------------------------------------------------

4.TT+,66-55,AcJc,AdJd,AhJh,AcTc,AdTd,AhTh,KTs,QTs,JTs,65s,A Jo-ATo,KTo,QTo,JTo

i eliminated kj, qj from my river betting range here because with both of those hands im looking to c/f or chk/chk river as making a bet with those hands in our range puts us behind villains calling range and we are value betting ourselves for him.

pokerstove results for river:

Board: Ts 6c 5d Js Tc
Dead:

Hand 0: 57.915%

{ TT+, 66-55, AcJc, AdJd, AhJh, AdTd, AhTh, KTs, QTs, JTs, 65s, AJo-ATo, KTo, QTo, JTo }

Hand 1: 42.085%

{ TT+, 66-55, ATs, A6s-A5s, KTs, QTs, JTs, 65s, 54s, ATo, KTo, QTo+ }

<yaawn> "dude you need to give up childish shit like your job, any hobbies, your girlfriend, then u'll get good"

"I hear u screamin girl but my name aint haaarder"

Vrax

09-19-2010, 02:50 PM

#42 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Poland

Posts: 632

Shit, I finally got my lazy ass and done this:

Quote:

Assume 100bb starting stacks. The BU is a nitty TAGG who does not 3-bet very much pre-flop and does not seem to call raises with a wide range of hands. He plays fit-or-fold post-flop for the most part. Assume something like 11/9 in FR or 17/14 in 6-max. The SB is a loose-ish TAGG (think something like 18/15 in FR or 27/24 in 6-max) who 3-bets pre-flop 6% and is capable of 3-bluffing OOP. He also leads a lot of flops, c-bets 85%, and c-bets the turn 60%, being very aggressive. The BB is a complete unknown.

Quote:

It folds to our Hero pre-flop in the CO who raises to 3 times the big blind [1].

std range
45s-JTs
T8s-QTs
AK, AQ, AJ
A2s-AQs
22-AA

Addon range JT+ because of BTN nit. He won't 3bet me light and I want high card strength (and hit more flops) against small blind who likes to test but not commit. Fold A9 or worse, K9 or worse, Q9 or worse, Q9s is marginal for me, but probably fold too. Yes, I'm nit.

Quote:

The BU calls, and the blinds fold. The flop pot is 7.5 big blinds, and the flop comes T 6 5 . Hero bets 5 big blinds [2] and the BU calls.

The hand didn't go with the plan, tagnit with position is kinda bad news. Tagnit's PFC range is mostly mid PP's (66-JJ), AQ, maybe AJs, KQs, QJs, JTs and pretty much that's it - rest of sooted crap he will probably fold or sometimes turn into 3bet semibluff (if he has any idea about mixing up ranges).

I really don't want to valuebet this board with mid strength hands, because nittag won't pay off me multistreet with KTish crap. SPR sucks for one pairs, I also don't want to c-bet AK-AQ, actually no better hand folds, and worse hands may bluffraise. (edit: well,against fit or fold, AK,AQ,AJ can be c-bet too).

Bet range:
bet/fold as (semi)bluff: KJ, QJ, unpaired A2s-A9s, all small connectors that whiffed totally
bet/fold for value: JT, QT, JJ
bet/call for value: TT, 66, 55

Check range:
Chk/fold: AK (sd value, hoping to go check/check)
Chk/raise and stackoff: KK, AA, 65s (to protect c/r bluffs)
Chk/call stab inducers: AT, A6s, 77 ,88, T9s
Chk/raise bluff: AQ, AJ, KQ, 78s, 98s,

Quote:

The turn pot is 17.5 big blinds with 92 big blinds behind. The turn card makes the board T 6 5 J . Hero bets 13 big blinds [3] and the BU calls

.

I bet {QQ, TJ, JJ, TT, 66, 55, KJ, QJ} for value
no barreling air, he's not a floater

Quote:

The river pot is 43.5 big blinds with 79 big blinds left behind. The river card makes the board T 6 5 J T . Hero bets 26 big blinds [4], and the button folds.

Bet {TT, JT, JJ, 55, 66, QQ}, with folding QQ to raise

It's pretty much nut range but it's only because I refused to multibarrel and moved my middling range to "check flop". Actually, 55/66 it's not that "nut" vs nit's river raising range, because he'll have bigger boats majority of the time.

Quote:

We're going to use our answers in a later exercise.

"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy

lombracremisi

10-13-2010, 04:20 AM

#43 (permalink)

One Pair

Join Date: Sep 2010

Posts: 19

lombracremisi is on a distinguished road

[1] My 3xBB bet range here would be {99+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,75s-74s,64s+,53s+,43s,AJo+,KQo}

Some of these hands typically would be limped if I didn't know the BU was a nit, but I'd raise to try and keep him out of the pot/isolate him or the blinds for HU. I'd also limp other PP's and some other random connectors since most often the BU is going to fold anyway.

Since the BU called I can assume that his range of hands has become significantly smaller, most likely JJ+, AQo+, AJs+, maybe small suited connectors, but this is highly situational depending on how he acts on the flop and I'll re-evaluate then.

[2] Since I was the original aggressor I would put in a c-bet with the majority of my range since most of the villain's assumed range isn't hit. So here I would continue with
{99+,AQs+,ATs,KQs,KTs,QTs,JTs,74s,64s+,53s+,AKo}

With the villains call on the flop I would tend to become a bit more worried about what hands he could have and would put him on either a straight draw, an overpair, or I would rethink about his range and possibly give him a set of tens. Given his nature of fit-or-fold most likely a set, but I'd wait to see what the turn brings.

[3] At this point since villain has called, the majority of my range turns into a check and hoping for the free card. My remaining betting hands are {KK+,JJ-TT,JTs} The remainder of cards I have to bet with here will cover most of villain's range as far as overpairs are concerned, JJ and TT give me a nice set on the turn (TT beforehand), and JTs give a nice two pair, also lessening the chances that villain has made a set with either of those cards since there are only two combinations of cards that would give him sets with either tens or jacks and would defeat his overpair.

[4] In this spot I would check with AA and KK because they have lost a lot of value with the pair of jacks on the board so those have been eliminated out of my range. Since {JJ-TT, JTs} would all give me boats I would go ahead and bet out on all of them and just hope for the best. The bet size makes sense in this case since we most likely have the nuts and we'd like it called rather than to scare him off with too large a size bet.

B-squared

10-24-2010, 04:13 PM

#44 (permalink)

One Pair

Join Date: Jan 2010

Posts: 16

The bet-sizing influenced my range a little, but this is it in essence.

[1] 22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,A8o+,KTo+, QTo+,JTo
[2] 22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,A8o+,KTo+, QTo+,JTo
[3] TT+,66-55,AsKs,AsQs,AJs-ATs,As9s,As8s,As7s,As6s,As5s,As4s,As3s,As2s,KJs+,Q Js,JTs,Ts9s,9s8s,8s7s,7s6s,AJo-ATo,KJo+,QJo,JTo
[4]TT+,66-55,AJs-ATs,JTs,Ts9s,AJo-ATo,JTo

PhoenixRising

11-07-2010, 01:16 AM

#45 (permalink)

High Card

Join Date: Nov 2010

Posts: 3

PhoenixRising is on a distinguished road

[1] opening range is: 22+, A6s+, JTs+, QJo+, T9s, 98s

[2] 55+, Tx+, Any nonheart suited, any A. Figure I'll see a fold many times.

[3] 55, 66, TT+, Ax spades, JK+

[4] 55, 66, TT+, AT, AJ, KJ

unclesteve

11-07-2010, 12:50 PM

#46 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2010

Posts: 104

[1] Axs, 22+, K9s+, KTo+, ATo+, 56s+, QTs+, 9To+

[2] same as [1]

[3] we polarize our range here when we bet, we've either got a draw, air or AJ+, we'd check worse hands for bluffcatchhing and coz we can't get 3streets of value with them .

[4] we no longer have air or draws, we'd be giving up with these, so we always have AJ, sets, JT... we can't have any Tx hands coz we bet the turn.

unclesteve

11-07-2010, 01:02 PM

#47 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2010

Posts: 104

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclesteve

lol- was browsing through the thread and saw this, had no idea i'd already done this exercise

Tukka

12-06-2010, 11:53 PM

#48 (permalink)

One Pair

Join Date: Jul 2010

Posts: 20

[1] 22+, Axs, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, J9s+, 54s+
[2] Same as [1]
[3] JJ, TT, 66, 55, JT, most flush draws, KQ
[4] JJ, TT, 66, 55, JT

The main thing that gives me pause is that the bet-sizing is pretty aggressive here, and against a nit like this, I don't know how comfortable I'd be betting even two pair so strongly on the turn.

I'm going to revisit this one again soon though. These are my initial thoughts on what my range would likely be in active play if I'm playing fairly alertly.

TheTouch

01-10-2011, 12:06 PM

#49 (permalink)

High Card

Join Date: Jan 2011

Posts: 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I'm still new so I'm probably going to be 'wrong', but I'll give this a go anyway to see how my answers compare.

It folds to our Hero pre-flop in the CO who raises to 3 times the big blind [1].

From late position I'd generally be raising 66+, AJ+, KJ+, T9s+, JTs+, Q9s+ K9s+, A4s+. I'm usually unlikely to raise with lower suited connectors. Given that the SB is loose, and the BB is unkown, the tightness of the BU is unlikely to lead to me making any changes to that in this situation.

The BU calls, and the blinds fold. The flop pot is 7.5 big blinds, and the flop comes T 6 5 . Hero bets 5 big blinds [2]

OK so the BU has something. He is unlikely to call my raise otherwise. My bet is giving him 4.5 : 1 pot odds, which should encourage him to fold if he has nothing, and not cost me too much to get information if he has something decent. Also the pot is rainbow, so flush draws are unlikely. With that in mind, my range isn't going to be all that small, but I've probably dropped the suited aces with low kickers. I'll have the obvious 66, TT+ (Remember I wouldn't normally have raised 55 so it's already out of my range) as well as some speculative pair-drawing hands like T9+ JT+, QT+, KT+, AT+, the straight drawing hands Q9, K9, and the other pairs 77+, and possibly A9s+ just on the off chance of the flush draw.

and the BU calls. The turn pot is 17.5 big blinds with 92 big blinds behind. The turn card makes the board T 6 5 J . Hero bets 13 big blinds [3]

Now I'm convinced that the BU has hit something good on the flop, and not just a drawing hand. He would likely have folded to my cbet otherwise. With that in mind I'm only betting an almost pot-sized amount if I think I have the best hand or the odds to draw it. I'm eliminating the use of the pot bet to shorten his odds, because I already think he has his hand. With that in mind, I'm down to the remaining tens TJ+ and jacks JT+, and I'll drop a lot of the pairs, including 66, since I'm not comfortable with 3rd best possible set anymore, leaving me with TT, JJ. The straight-, pair-, and flush-drawing hands are gone, because my bet makes the odds of hitting them too small. The bet gives me 2.3 : 1 pot odds if it's called, and I'd need 15 outs for that to be profitable in the long run. The board just doesn't give me those sorts of odds.

and the BU calls. The river pot is 43.5 big blinds with 79 big blinds left behind. The river card makes the board T 6 5 J T . Hero bets 26 big blinds [4]

I'm only betting with the nuts or close to it, for a value bet. TT, JT, JJ.

, and the BU folds.

Shotglass

01-10-2011, 08:59 PM

#50 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2010

Location: feelin' allright

Posts: 733

Shotglass will become famous soon enough

1) Against a button tagg I'd make this move with ATC. The lagg in the blind won't change that.
2) C-bet with the same, since the tagg likely missed this discombobulated flop.
3) Since he’s a tag, if I had a read that tells me he’d fold to 4th or 5th street bets, I might bluff w/ air to the river…but there’s only a few players that I’d do that against. Most likely I’d only continue with top 2 pr, a set or a BDFD.
4) He’s flatted every street so I wouldn’t run with the busted flush draw. Since the only other two hands that I’d bet with on 4th street were top 2 pr or a set, the river gets me a full house or quads, so I’d bet a bit less than half pot to induce a call or c/r from the button. If I've got 6's full and he shoved then I'd go with it. If he's got quads or J's full, so be it.

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