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FTR Group Sweat #2 - Jan 31st 9pm GMT/4pm EST - 10NL

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  1. #1
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    Default FTR Group Sweat #2 - Jan 31st 9pm GMT/4pm EST - 10NL

    ***Video***

    http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7OVZ5ICU

    Hey guys,

    m planning the next session. With respect to everyone who couldn´t make the last time, cuz they had to work we´re going to do this on the upcoming weekend. Erpel volunteers to play 10NL and have us railing him. I hope we can agree on a time that fits everybody who wants to join us and that somebody could make a vid for those who can´t make it. I´ll reserve one seat for a BC mod and another for somebody willing to record the sesh.

    Post ideas here along with date and time suggestions. I´ll add a poll for when to do this as soon as I know which time fits Erpel best.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred View Post
    xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
    yo
  2. #2
    I'd love to do take part again, and hopefully get more involved in the discussion this time. Working in the daytime both days with a 4.30am GMT start (yippee) . A 9pm GMT would be early afternoonin the US and morning in Australia .
    A thought i had was whether the Mikogo could be daisy chained so that 9 people get the original broadcast with them then hosting their own desktop to get up to 81 other people involved.
    How many people can take part in a skype conference?.
    Also participants really need to have a headset to stop the echo that occurred in parts of the previous session. I was using the mic mute buton don't know if this would be an advantage if more people could be incorporated into the session.
  3. #3
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    Default Re: FTR Group Sweat #2 - 10NL

    Quote Originally Posted by XTR1000
    I hope we can agree on a time that fits everybody who wants to join us and that somebody could make a vid for those who can´t make it. I´ll reserve one seat for a BC mod and another for somebody willing to record the sesh.

    Post ideas here along with date and time suggestions. I´ll add a poll for when to do this as soon as I know which time fits Erpel best.
    I'm interested.

    NZ is GMT+12. So Saturday 11am GMT is saturday 11pm here in kiwi-world. As a result, I can't guarantee sobreity - actually, that applies anytime. I figure that finding a time that suits Erpel makes most sense, then those who can attend do. Those who can't make it volunteer to be the player/guinea pig next time.

    Skype I'm davenpoker.
    Cheers
  4. #4
    I would love to take part again and would also be down for doing another recording. I don't think I'll feel as intimidated this time as well, as I'm a 10NL player myself. The only downside to this is that if I'm doing the recording, the video doesn't pick up me speaking into the microphone, because I can only record one audio source at a time via camtasia.

    Just a reminder that this sunday afternoon/night is superbowl sunday, so you may want to take that into consideration when planning the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith_MM
    A thought i had was whether the Mikogo could be daisy chained so that 9 people get the original broadcast with them then hosting their own desktop to get up to 81 other people involved.
    How many people can take part in a skype conference?.
    Also participants really need to have a headset to stop the echo that occurred in parts of the previous session. I was using the mic mute buton don't know if this would be an advantage if more people could be incorporated into the session.
    Interesting thought with the daisy chaining, I'd be very surprised though if you could share your desktop while at the same time viewing someone else's. But it's a possiblity.

    As for skype, that's limited to 10 participants. I can't think of a way to get around that though, which would make the video daisy chaining pointless.

    As for a head set, all you need is head phones. I'd be surprised if someone had a microphone on their computer but didn't have headphones laying around anywhere in their house.

    Like I said, I'm very interested and would be happy to do another recording.
  5. #5
    XTR1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith_MM
    A thought i had was whether the Mikogo could be daisy chained so that 9 people get the original broadcast with them then hosting their own desktop to get up to 81 other people involved.
    It´s possible to chain the transmission, but from my experience the 2nd hand transmission comes with a fair lag. Beside that, I think skype conferences are limited to 10.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred View Post
    xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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  6. #6
    love to be in, no major obligationsduring the wekend to hinder me, except for putting fresh cloth (simonis 760) onto 4 brunswick 9 feet billiard tables on saturday morning.

    hags
    sometimes naked
    sometimes mad
    now the fool
    now the scholar
    thus they appear on earth:
    the free men.

    -Hindu verse
  7. #7
    I think the most sensible time is evening European time, midday/afternoon US time, early morning in Australia. Maybe shoot for 9 pm GMT and the Saturday rather than the Sunday. (Well, maybe Sunday morning in Australia, but all the more reason for it to be the Saturday then)

    I do have ideas, but I'm open to others. My basic idea is to have this be me working on my current area of study, which is hand reading, reads and note taking.

    What this means is playing just one table. I won't be looking to get into "interesting spots" as they call them, but rather on extracting the maximum information from the table, and hopefully get into one of two situations where I can directly apply this information.

    I imagine the session going something like this:
    I go the lobby, select a table explaining why I pick this table, find out if I like the seat that is open and if I do sit down.

    I determine if I know any of the villains on the table, and if I do have any information on any of them I will begin scouring my resource to build up a profile on them while I'm playing. Additonally, I make a note of every time a player completes the SB, limps, limp-calls, limp-folds and cold calls. Attempt to steal is also important, but that's tracked automatically. Every showdown I witness I go through the hand history and judge based on the actual holdings how people have played on every street and make notes accordingly.

    I intend to play pretty nitty so I have time to analyse everything else that's going on and only get involved if it's clearly profitable for me to do so. As the session progresses more and more hands should become playable as the amount of information I have on my opponents increases.

    Initialy my game plan is as follows: Play pocket pairs, AK, AQ in most situations. Play any two cards if the situation suggests that it may be profitable to do so.

    The situation is defined as a combination of many factors, such as:
    Position
    The tendencies and stack sizes of players already in the pot and players left to act
    Hand strength

    Ideally we'll have at least a couple of showdowns between other players where we've been able to estimate and narrow their hand ranges as the hand progressed and we'll be able to predict who has what before the cards are turned over.

    Within this scope of activity I'm sure I'll make enough questionable decisions for us to have things to talk about.
  8. #8
    XTR1000's Avatar
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    Sounds great. I´m gonna sort my toughts on note taking until then.

    m gonna schedule this for 9pm GMT/4pm EST (this helps)

    Everyone who wants to participate pm me your Skype ID AND your real name, I had a hard time the last session identifying all you guys, since skype shows your real name rather than your nickname.

    As for the session, it´s up to Erpel which screensharing program we´ll be using. Mikogo did well for me, but not for everyone I guess, so if you want to go with Teamviewer thats fine.

    Now that we have a main theme for the session, feel free to put together questions and thoughts on hand reading, taking notes and gaining reads and acting accordingly.


    Thanks for doing this Erpel.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred View Post
    xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
    yo
  9. #9
    Never mind, title of thread has the date. I'm a moron.
  10. #10
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    i would love to come since NL10 is where I am at, but i have prior engagements on the 31st i do hope somebody does record this again!
  11. #11
    If you use Teamviewer I'm game. I'll pm XTR after I'm done with this, but just thought I'd throw that out there lol. I'm on a Mac right now, so Mikogo won't work on it as of right now (just googled it <3 google ) Anyways 4pm on Saturday is cool with me. (I'm american)
  12. #12
    I have to sit out on this one.Exams next week.I need to buy a mic as well after the exams.

    Someone record it!!!!
    Good Luck Erpel
  13. #13
    If it doesn't fill and for some bizarre reason I'm not out getting drunk on the saturday after payday I'll be in for this
    There's only one system. Bet. Lose. Borrow. Steal. Lose. Take the drugs. Lose. Prison. Death.
  14. #14
    I am in 10NL currently too, wish I could come.. I work that night. I look forward to the video.

    Thanks again for organizing these.

    O
  15. #15
    has session 1 been recorded and if so, where can i find it?
    oki, looking forward to saturday!

    hags
    sometimes naked
    sometimes mad
    now the fool
    now the scholar
    thus they appear on earth:
    the free men.

    -Hindu verse
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by hagscel
    has session 1 been recorded and if so, where can i find it?
    oki, looking forward to saturday!

    hags
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...st-t80983.html
    Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
  17. #17
    the last video had some really messed up audio. hopefully you guys can fix it this time, i'd really like to follow along with this
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by AFchung
    the last video had some really messed up audio. hopefully you guys can fix it this time, i'd really like to follow along with this
    What do you mean by messed up? Volume wise, or just completely bad audio? If it's bad audio and you can't understand anything anyone is saying, then you need to download the proper codecs.
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by RML604
    Quote Originally Posted by AFchung
    the last video had some really messed up audio. hopefully you guys can fix it this time, i'd really like to follow along with this
    What do you mean by messed up? Volume wise, or just completely bad audio? If it's bad audio and you can't understand anything anyone is saying, then you need to download the proper codecs.
    it was like giltchy... like if i had a mute button it would be as if i was switching it on and off every second
  20. #20
    all I can say was with whatever basic codecs I had from Divx the last video was flat-out perfect audio/video wise.
  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigspenda73
    all I can say was with whatever basic codecs I had from Divx the last video was flat-out perfect audio/video wise.
    worked perfectly for me too
  22. #22
    Good to know the quality was so good, I hope to be recording the next one this Saturday as well, so I'll stick with the current formula.
  23. #23
    vlc mediaplayer butchered the sound, winamp did the job perfectly, absolute astonishing quality, great job done, grandma aarives on friday, thank you so much....

    hags
    sometimes naked
    sometimes mad
    now the fool
    now the scholar
    thus they appear on earth:
    the free men.

    -Hindu verse
  24. #24
    I mentioned in my earlier post that I'd devote a minute or two to table/seat selection at the beginning of the session and explain my reasoning, then ended up writing it all out in a post today anyway.

    I'm "quoting" that stuff here for reference - and I put quoting in quotes because on re-reading it I need to change a few things which I'll do without reference to what it said before. So no quote box which may mislead to suggest nothing has changed.

    Here goes:

    My table selection goes as follows:
    Filter only for the type of table I want to play. Currently this is 10nlhe, 6max, not fast tables (I want 30 seconds for my decisions as opposed to 15), not full tables (no seats right now)

    Order by saw flop %. Any table with more than 30% saw flop warrants consideration, I start looking at the top % first.

    Typically I disregard tables with just 2 or 3 players, but I don't filter them out because sometimes you can spot a fish there and it's even easier getting their money when the table is shorthanded.

    The second thing I look at is the STACKS. If there is no money to be won at the table I don't care how loose they all are. I prefer sitting down at a table where everyone has 100bb or more, but typically I have to settle for 3-4 out of 5 having a full stack.

    I open up a promising table and check which seat is available. I probably reserve it and look around a bit. If I have position on the only short stack and I have stats on several opponents and know they are nitty I might just leave again. I ask myself the question - will they be dropping their money in my lap - if no, I seriously consider leaving.

    I rarely ever consider the average pot size. The number is an average over a set number of recent hands. That number is probably in the area of 20 hands, and average pot size is skewed heavily by variance. If people have been getting good cards it will be high.

    Also there is this: The bigger the average pot size, the higher the chance that the average pot size is big because someone just lost a huge pot and left the table - it's his seat that's available. Good players tend only to get into big pots that they stand a good chance of winning, whereas poor players tend to get into more big pots that they lose. This again increases the likelihood that the guy who just busted out was the biggest fish at the table. Also poor players tend to lose their buyin and leave, good players tend to lose their buyin and reload. So one more reason why big average pot means the fish just left.

    I don't count a big average pot size against a table - I do still consider it a small plus. But I don't really consider it much of one. And by this I mean a big average pot size in a reasonably normal range is a plus - a big average pot size outside the reasonably normal range is approaching a minus.

    It's much more important imo to get to a table with big stacks, hit sets and get paid as they say.

    Or to put it differently - to sit at a table where the money is 1) abundant and 2) loose and then sit and wait for it to flow naturally into your hands. One mistake I often do in the beginnings of sessions is to push to get a profit. When I push it pretty much always goes wrong and costs me a lot of money. Patience is the thing - profit will happen on its own schedule.
  25. #25
    XTR1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigred View Post
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    yo
  26. #26
    Yeah, I'm still up for this. I'll use Mikogo and Skype as you did. I'll look at creating and connecting to a Mikogo session a bit prior to the start.
  27. #27
    good news, I think I'll make it
  28. #28
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  29. #29
    XTR1000's Avatar
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    right now I have one free seat, pm me ur skype details pls
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred View Post
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  30. #30
    Little less than one hour left. XTR handling the Skype conference call?
  31. #31
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    funny, a few days ago NZ was GMT + 12, not we're GMT + 13.
  32. #32
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    attended the xtr-arranged, erpel-hosted, spenda-lead poker sweat session this morning.

    A few things that struck me during the session and later, in reflection (spenda, I apologise if some of this is breach of copyright ). These are all basically notes to myself as well

    1) Autopilot - if you're playing only one or a few tables then you shouldn't be on auto-pilot. You have time to make decisions, question if a second barrel is better than a scared check, whether it makes sense to bet a river and what that does to a range, etc. In fact, this applies to multi-tabling too, but by then these factors should be absorbed automatically anyway

    2) Player notes - what are these for? they're to describe tendencies and style that you can use to inform future decisions. How much of these tendencies and styles can be described instead by HUD stats? how does this affect the type of notes you need?

    3) HUD stats - these can tell you a lot more than "wide range preflop?" and "aggressive pre-flop?" Also, VPIP = 50% means you don't need a note that says he limps Axs. What do you want to know? what is useful? is it available? why don't i add this to my HUD? also, colour ranges - why? without an answer, don't bother. FYI - my hud has VPIP, PFR, 3-bet, steal, fold to 3-bet, 4-bet, flop c-bet, fold to flop c-bet, hands. This will change again soon, and will be different for 6-max. This is maybe more useful when you play a lot of hands though - i've played over 300k hands at my current stakes/site and there are a lot of regs.

    4) optimising your play
    - interpreting available information to influence how you should play. i.e. going a step further than "these are his stats, so he does..." and adding "so how can i exploit that"

    5) ranges - doing some basic range work is invaluable - you want to be able to instantly assign ranges.

    6) hand analysis - this should be fast. I think it's common to be able to spend fifteen minutes analysing a hand and coming to a decent conclusion. Something that struck me during this session was how quickly spenda could 'see' a hand, and recall it a few seconds later = something that practise will always improve. When you're playing you have 15seconds. I wonder if there is value in looking at old posted hand histories, allowing yourself 15 seconds to decide what to do, then reading through all the responses to see how you did.

    7) multi-tabling - the time spent writing extensive notes and looking up history on PT is the time needed to play a few more tables. You gotta make sure that these notes and PT history study is paying greater dividends than playing more tables. These dividends aren't just $$ though, they're also about how these things are helping you improve as a player. Greater $$ return at 10nl through multi-tabling isn't worth it as much as becoming a better player to allow you to beat higher stakes (read Robb's op-posts...)

    8) more ranges - incorporate this into your play more and more!!!! what is their range, how do i play best against that range, was my range approximation good, how did i play. Not, hell, i hit the top of his range and lost.

    one of the coolest things i got out of this was pre-session beta on a climbing area, but i digress http://www.harzblock.de/HarzBlock_Frameset_en.html
  33. #33
    A few HH's worth discussions

    1. As6s
    2. AKo after video was over
    3. QT isolation+double barrel
    4. QQ hand with Ace on the turn
    5. First hand we missed barrelling, I think you had 84dd (props to Daven for calling out my sick memory skillz) and the turn rolled of an Ace on a 985A board and we c/f'ed the river
  34. #34
    Here's the video:

    http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7OVZ5ICU

    Video & sound quality are the same as the first video. It's about 1:08, and 140MBs.
  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by bigspenda73
    A few HH's worth discussions

    1. As6s
    2. AKo after video was over
    3. QT isolation+double barrel
    4. QQ hand with Ace on the turn
    5. First hand we missed barrelling, I think you had 84dd (props to Daven for calling out my sick memory skillz) and the turn rolled of an Ace on a 985A board and we c/f'ed the river
    hint hint, I wanted Erpel to post these HH's in this thread
  36. #36
    fascinating spotthat came up during the session was when the guy disconnected when erpel had the nuts. and you told him to use the time bank so that it gave the most chance for him to reconnect and get more value out of him .
  37. #37
    Sorry for having been incommunicado the last two days - my wife and work has kept me busy and I knew I'd end up posting at length so I didn't want to do a 5 minute job on a reply - now of course I am doing a 5-minute job on a reply. At work right now, but will certainly post those hands and my thoughts when I get home.

    Couple comments on the whole process - it is humbling because you are exposed where you are weak. Also I found it a little hard to get into. I had an idea of what I wanted to do, but I ended up not really able to lead the discussion, and when we got on the topics I wanted to talk about I found I didn't have anything particularly insightful to say.

    Anyone considering signing up for a group sweat know that it can be immensely beneficial, but you don't want to be freezing up as I did a couple of times and get too distracted by talking about things instead of just going through your normal thought processes. For anyone interested in the full attention of a group of people I'd recommend sitting down to a couple of one-on-one sessions first (and I'll be happy to sit in) and just practice talking about thought processes while playing.

    The main thing that struck me is how starkly obvious it is that I look at the cards in front of me and then decide what to do. I begin to realize now how much that shows that I'm looking at a poker hand the wrong way. When I look at things the right way I should first look at the action thus far - define hand ranges for my opponents, define hand ranges for me, consider the flop, consider the hand ranges against the flop and against each other. Determine what parts of my range are strong, what parts of my range are weak, how to play different parts of my range to optimise, how to play other parts of my range to bluff, semi-bluff and balance - and then, only then, after all this, look at my cards, find out where it fits in and play it according to the master plan.

    It became especially evident to me when Spenda delivered a few offhand comments about how he's always balancing with aces in this situation and I only just spotted the point as it flew well over my head and I really started to appreciate what it means and how I'm looking at a single poker hand in such a very wrong way.

    To be honest, I think in the interest of not being results oriented we should probably encourage beginners to post hands not just without showing results, but also without showing their own pocket cards.

    As daven outlined in his post above the important thing about information is how to extract value from it. I find often enough that I get more out of taking note of peoples tendencies than I do from taking notes of their opening ranges. That's why when I go into my 'fix my bad note-taking habits' mode I tend to start taking too many notes on hand ranges and similar because I feel it's an area I've overlooked. I'll freely admit I do not at the time think too deeply about what the information is worth I do it just because I want to be able to assert authoritatively that this or that hand is or is not in his range when he opens/calls/whatnot pre-flop.

    What's much more valuable is to see people making weak leads with drawing hands, strong bets with drawing hands, slowplaying monsters, calling down with third pair and so on. And the often quoted message that information with a higher dollar amount (later street information) tends to be more indicative than early street, cheap information.

    In terms of the ability to use the information, I, and I hope many other beginners or I'm just too far behind the curve for it to be funny, tend to think of hands.. as I outlined above. In the exactly backwards way compared to how you should think of hands. All attempt to think about and analyse a hand needs to start from the situation - the action, the board. He checks - what can it mean? He has in the past checked with a monster to slowplay - in fact he has never played a monster fast. He has in the past bluffed at the pot in a similar situation. He has made weak leads in similar situations with drawing and weak pair hands. He checks now - he's probably very strong a fair bit of time, and looking to fold the rest of the time. So which part of my range will check and which part of my range will bet - and how much will that bet be?

    What does a preflop limp mean?
    What does a preflop limp/call mean?
    What does a preflop raise mean?
    What does a preflop coldcall mean?
    What does a cbet mean?
    What does a weak donk bet mean?
    What does a check-raise mean?
    What does an overbet mean?
    etc etc ad nauseam. These are questions I need to have a reasonable approximation of an answer to for each of my villains - so that when they take an action, I know what it means and I can adjust the range of hands with which I check, call, bet, raise and fold to be more profitable against the part of his range that is most likely to have taken that particular action. And only when I've adjusted and balanced my ranges should I actually look at my cards and determine which part of the range it fits into.

    The thing about statistics (which HUDs show) is that it only tells us how often he does something, not what he does it with, or how he thinks about poker to justify doing it. I'm sure there are people who never 3bet AA and KK but who 3bet 87s-65s every time, while calling with AA and KK to see a flop. It's still 12 hand combinations and their 3bet percentage will look as if they only 3bet AA,KK.

    I have so much to learn.

    Ok, that's my five minutes for now. Again apologies for the delay and I'll post hands when I get home from work tonight. Shouldn't be anything taking up my time tonight. And thanks for the sweat.
  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith_MM
    fascinating spotthat came up during the session was when the guy disconnected when erpel had the nuts. and you told him to use the time bank so that it gave the most chance for him to reconnect and get more value out of him .
    yea but betting 10 cents (my suggestion also) was incorrect. We should have just made a normal bet-size or shoved. I was giving way too much credit to some 10nl fish to come back, read our bet-size for trying to steal the pot while he was d/c'ed and then to raise/shove over it. Probably a play reserved for a higher limit.
  39. #39
    As6s:
    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    MP ($11.40)
    Button ($21.65)
    SB ($6.20)
    BB ($12.25)
    Hero (UTG) ($10)

    Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, 6
    Hero raises to $0.40, 1 fold, Button calls $0.40, 2 folds

    Flop: ($0.95) 9, 7, 3 (2 players)
    Hero bets $0.80, Button raises to $2.15, Hero raises to $9.60 (All-In), 1 fold

    Comments:
    Pre-flop: I could play or fold this hand. As I said in this video this time I play the hand mostly to see a flop against one of the blinds in position - I expect CO and BTN to fold quite often as they're both tight. Spenda mentioned that he plays these kinds of hands a lot from early position, and I have previously thought that nut-flush-draw-making hands should be easy to play OOP post-flop - either you have equity that you can play aggressively or you don't. And of course you hold an ace which is a blocker to all other Ax hands that might scare.

    Flop: Pretty good flop for me. I bet pretty big on the flop in what I can in retrospect maybe sell as range balancing. I bet big to make it appear as if I have an overpair that wants to price out draws. I know I'm likely to be up against a fairly wide range as he knew he was going to be in position when he called me. When I'm raised it almost doesn't matter what he has anymore - I have outs to the nuts and depending on his holding I may have 9 or 12 outs to beat him or be already ahead of a weaker drawing hand like a T8 type hand. The small raise (1/2 pot) is often one that would like to see a fold sometimes, but which would also not be unhappy to see an extra card come that can improve it. I think it's often a semi-bluff with a drawing hand. It may well be profitable for the villain on fold equity because I think people in general will fold too much to this kind of raise. We briefly considered 3betting smaller here - min-raise would be kind of sick (to $3.5) to encourage the villain to call but stacks are short enough that shoving is a pretty straightforward profitable way to play it.

    This hand resulted in something of a range balancing discussion where Spenda said to play the exact same way with all our other AsXs hands, JJ+ overpairs, 99 and 77 sets, 97 and goes into mentioning G-bucks (look it up, honestly - it's good stuff). Having this kind of shoving range here makes it very hard to play profitable against us.

    AKo (not caught on camera):
    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    SB ($9.80)
    Hero (BB) ($12.20)
    UTG ($10.40)
    Button ($0.75)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with A, K
    UTG raises to $0.20, Button calls $0.20, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.80, UTG calls $0.60, Button calls $0.55 (All-In)

    Flop: ($2.40) 5, 10, A (3 players, 1 all-in)
    Hero bets $1.50, UTG calls $1.50

    Turn: ($5.40) 4 (3 players, 1 all-in)
    Hero bets $2.75, UTG calls $2.75

    River: ($10.90) 5 (3 players, 1 all-in)
    Hero bets $7.15 (All-In), UTG calls $5.35 (All-In)

    Comments:
    Pre-flop: AKo is clearly worth playing and building a pot with. "A" range hand. I treat the min-raise kind of like a limp at twice the price - so in this case I raise to 4bb + 2bb twice - to 8bb. PSB would be 7.5bb (where PSB with no limpers is 3.5bb and a normal bet size is 4bb so that's consistent).

    Flop: I did not at the time consider that my SPR here is 4 so it's time to make a commitment decision - since I hit TPTK the decision should be to commit to the pot and plan to stack off. "A" range hand.
    What I did think was that I hit TPTK, I'd really hate to lose with it, the board is dry and it's technically a 3bet pot so I can't cbet too big or I won't get called by worse. I bet for value here.

    Turn: When I'm just called on the flop I begin to discount sets. The turn is an obvious blank and I bet again for value - "A" range hand. Again my bet size is designed to be callable by worse.

    River: Here I think and talk for way too long in what should be a simple decision. My problem I think comes from the fact that I never made the plan on the flop I should have and made the commitment decision. Another part of the problem is that at this time the weaker hands in the villain range that I want to call another bet I expect are actually quite few, and while I discount sets for not having raised earlier villains at these stakes are notoriously fond of slowplaying so I can by no means count it out. Of course the 5 pairing the board means any worse two-pair hand(?) would now be counterfeited but that's not such a keen concern. What I was thinking about here was betting less to get calls from worse. On reflection and analysis now that is a good thought to have in general but the wrong place for it - there is less than 1/2 pot behind and there is no small bet that I can make that will get a call where a 1/2 pot bet will get a fold. I did spend so much time on it that the opponent thought I was weaker than I was and maybe called because of that, but that would be speculative and accidental if true.

    QTo (isolation + double barrel):
    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    SB ($19.55)
    BB ($6.35)
    UTG ($12.10)
    MP ($10)
    Hero (Button) ($12.45)

    Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, 10
    1 fold, MP calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, 2 folds, MP calls $0.40

    Flop: ($1.15) 5, 5, 8 (2 players)
    MP checks, Hero bets $0.60, MP calls $0.60

    Turn: ($2.35) A (2 players)
    MP checks, Hero bets $1.25, 1 fold

    Comments:
    Pre-flop: I was considering limping here. I was thinking of the connectedness of the hand, the fact I would be in position and I just didn't know what kind of hand the villain would limp here. He was a complete unknown. I thought basically to play a small limped pot to learn something about his limping range. Someone made the point to punish the limper for limping, something I generally agree with so I raised it up.

    Flop: This was a welcome flop because I doubt he hit it very strongly. True, he could play 76, 87, 98, T8, 65, 54 etc - but still he'd have many more hands in his range than those. I cbet here as a pure bluff because I expect him to have missed it. I bet small because the flop is super dry - if he's going to fold he'll fold to a small bet as much as he'll fold to a big one.

    Turn: Turn hits my hand range very well - I could easily have arrived on this turn with an ace, so I fire the second barrel of my bluff. Again I choose a small bet size for the same reason - if he's inclined to fold he'll fold to small as well as big.

    QQ hand with ace on turn:
    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    MP ($15.25)
    Hero (Button) ($10.35)
    SB ($1.75)
    BB ($10.20)
    UTG ($11.30)

    Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q
    2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB calls $0.25, BB calls $0.20

    Flop: ($0.90) 6, 2, 7 (3 players)
    SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.60, 1 fold, BB calls $0.60

    Turn: ($2.10) A (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero checks

    River: ($2.10) J (2 players)
    BB bets $1.30, Hero calls $1.30

    Comments:
    Preflop: I will play QQ. Spenda made a point earlier when I played a trashy hand on the BTN as a blind steal that he'd play that for $0.25 instead of $0.30 and then play aces occasionally for $0.25 to balance, which I noted at the time as a good idea then promptly forgot - when this hand came around he said basically that this is the hand he would have used to balance the range. I take the fact that I didn't think of it as evidence that I simply don't consider ranges enough to be able to balance ranges.
    Flop: Why I cbet so small I don't know. The flop is not particularly wet, but it is multiway and straight draws are definitely in both villains ranges.

    Turn: I think Spenda suggested this was a good card to fire at. The reason I checked behind was that I was probably overthinking the situation and thought that AK/AQ/AJ kind of hands could have floated and hit. For whatever reason I felt I didn't want to commit to stacking off so I checked for pot control.

    River: When the J comes all straight draws have missed and a back door flush draw has completed. I figure if he has that gg to him, but he's more likely to bet here with a hand that I beat, maybe even on a missed draw. I don't think there's any value in raising here and I call to hopefully take down the pot.

    Worth noting here is that I again played the cards in front of me instead of reflecting on which part of a range it should belong in, and how I should play it in one way or another to balance or reinforce other parts of my range. As with the As6s hand I should possibly have played my overpair here the same way I would play a set and a strong draw. That said, on this board there wasn't a nut flush draw possible on the flop, but my BTN open range should be wide enough that the nut staight draw should be in my range. I probably need to bet my over/second pairs here to protect my semi-bluffs.

    8d4d missed second barrel opportunity:
    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    BB ($10.80)
    UTG ($21.45)
    Button ($12.35)
    Hero (SB) ($10.45)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with 4, 8
    2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BB calls $0.20

    Flop: ($0.60) 5, 8, 9 (2 players)
    Hero bets $0.40, BB calls $0.40

    Turn: ($1.40) A (2 players)
    Hero checks, BB checks

    River: ($1.40) 2 (2 players)
    Hero checks, BB bets $0.60, Hero folds

    Comments:
    Pre-flop: I raise here purely as a blind steal. While stealing with ATC is probably profitable against this villain I'd hate to get too predictable doing it so I'd probably fold unsuited, unconnected cards without high card value. 84s is clearly playable as a steal though.

    Flop: I don't like it much, because it can have hit my opponents range. I don't like betting much because my weak second pair wants to contend a small pot, but the flop is so wet I feel I almost have to give drawing hands a chance to make a mistake. Even overcard hands like KJ are drawing hands to my weak pair and I need to price them out.

    Turn: Had I had AK, AQ, AJ or similar I'd have cbet the flop - this means that I can represent the A on the turn and should have bet at it as a bluff. When called on the flop I know my villain has a hand with at least some hope, and for most of those kinds of hands an ace is bad news.

    River: I missed my window, the river blanks and I might be sitting on the best hand. Since the pot is still small I decide to check/fold. Spenda mentions check/raising as an option - I'm assuming this is kind of a delayed bluff at the A. Upon reflection now, no draws completed I have showdown equity and I might have the best hand. The price he charged to see a showdown was small - he could have bet this with a missed draw and/or a 66/77/65/75 type hand (for value against my presumed bluffs?) I think I could profitably have just called here. I only need to win about 24% of the time to be profitable.
  40. #40
    Great reflection on those hands Erpel. That QQ hand, don't worry lol. I always panic when that Ace hits the board, always forgetting that a lot of the time that Ace is just as scary for the villain as it is for me. Looks like thinking about our range is something we both need to work on.

    I watched the vid. Pretty good quality/content, except, like I think you said, you don't get to do a lot of what you wanted to do. (Take notes on players' tendencies, exploit said tendencies.) All in all though, it's never a bad thing to listen to spenda talk pokers.
  41. #41
    video added to OP and thread added to Beginner's Digest

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