Originally Posted by
a500lbgorilla
Originally Posted by
angrystoc
My problem, in the .01/.02 NL games, is the opposite.
"Only a J7 beats me here, and he called a 5x pre-
flop..."
Villian shows
full house, jacks full of sevens. It's taken me a long time to
balance between getting value on my made hands when a
fish donk bets all in with
middle pair, and when he's re-raising Kx that hit a wacky
full house on the
river. Sure it's all read based, but
fish (myself included) hit the
nuts too.
Dunno if this was already highlighted, but this
post is full of invalid reasoning.
Can you elaborate?
If J7 is in his range, it's in his range. When he turns over a J7 full house and beats you, that's just him being at the tip top of his range. Ideally, he should be able to turn over a few different hands at showdown and you think, "cool. I played it right." And some of those hands actually ship the pot to him! I understand that on the surface this is a very result oriented way of thinking, however I've talked myself into a lot of bad calls by eliminating weak starting hands from a players
range only to find out that is exactly what they had.
So... why did you say this sentence? Was it because you actually understand that it was results oriented thinking or was it because saying, "i understand it's very results oriented thinking..." makes you appear to understand more than you do? ooooooo, did I just write all that to make myself appear more understanding??? The levels!
My guess is it's closer to the ladder but you think it might be close to the truth. You hear people talk about the shortcomings of results oriented thinking and your first post could easily be an example of that! What it's actually an example of is misunderstanding what it means to play your hand appropriately.
"It's taken me a long time to balance between getting value on my made hands when a fish donk bets all in with middle pair, and when he's re-raising Kx that hit a wacky full house on the river."
This sentence specifically. The "balance" comes because he can have both hands and more! They all fall within his range. The only time you lose balance is when the donkey shows up with a hand that you thought he could never have! And that's not to say the hand is "J7" or "23o", that's to say that hand is like "checking behind on a 3 straight 2 spade flop with top two pair! When he checks behind, you've likely removed two pair hands from his range. If he shows up with these hands at showdown, that is when we've lost "balance." So for the hand you posted later. Op is loose enough to limp/call any 2. Cool. On the flop, what hands can he check call? Jx, full houses, overcards, clubs? I'd expect him to checkraise 7x (and maybe 2 clubs) a good portion of the time. His range isn't {22+, SC, Big pairs} I never think of ranges in terms of pokerstove inputs, but in terms of what hands fit the flop texture and my opponents actions
My intent was to say that when my problem was not that I
don't put people on ranges, it's that I do it badly at times, and against my badly guessed
range I make a mathematically 'good
call' that feels wrong, and ends up being wrong. I also tend to err on the side of giving people too much credit.
Here's the example I alluded to earlier (Sorry, I can't use the
hand converter for a few more posts):
PokerStars Game #22916201480: Hold'em
No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2008/12/14 15:20:55 ET
Table 'Peiroos' 6-max Seat #3 is the
button
Seat 1: VSB.Gimli ($3.01 in chips)
Seat 2: MarcusVonRix ($1.38 in chips)
Seat 3: angrystoc ($2.21 in chips)
Seat 4:
Level R1 ($4.13 in chips)
Seat 5: ijwen ($1.22 in chips)
Seat 6: hobbes54321 ($10.78 in chips)
Level R1: posts
small blind $0.01
ijwen: posts
big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to angrystoc [Kc Ac]
hobbes54321: folds
VSB.Gimli: folds
MarcusVonRix: calls $0.02
angrystoc: raises $0.08 to $0.10
Level R1: folds
ijwen: folds
MarcusVonRix: calls $0.08
***
FLOP *** [Jc 7c 7s]
MarcusVonRix: checks
angrystoc: bets $0.14
MarcusVonRix: calls $0.14
***
TURN *** [Jc 7c 7s] [Qc]
MarcusVonRix: checks
angrystoc: checks
***
RIVER *** [Jc 7c 7s Qc] [4h]
MarcusVonRix: bets $0.34
angrystoc: raises $0.34 to $0.68
MarcusVonRix: raises $0.46 to $1.14 and is
all-in
angrystoc: calls $0.46
Now let's look at ranges:
Preflop I'
m thinking he
limp-called 5x on the
Button, so it's still fairly wide but we'll say {22+, A9s+, ATo+, KT+, QT+, and probably any number of SCs} (I
don't really know how to get these into PokerStove).
Flop Check/
Call so I'
m thinking a weaker
flush draw, possibly any
PP or a Jack, the possibility of
set is there, but if we make our
draw we're still ok and
JJ is a small part of his
range, so we have a lot of
equity. So we're looking at {22+, QJ+, and SCs}
Turn This is could be a misplay on my part, he looks scared of the
flush, and I thought slow playing was the best way to get the money in. However, he checks which makes a
flush less likely. My
range at this point is looking like this {22+, QJ+, and SCs}
River He thinks his hand is good, but we've got the nut
flush so we reraise (this probably should've been a
fold/
shove). He 3 bets... Hmmm,
JJ? Oh
well, we're priced in and have a ton of
equity against weaker flushes and overpairs.
Well, he showed J7o which didn't enter my ranges at any point. I
don't know how differently I would've played the hand, but I do consider it a $1.50 lesson in why you proceed with caution on paired boards when you have a
FD.
shitty lesson. By the turn, the only lesson you can take from this hand is that poker deals you coolers. Is it impossible that he turns over 4c5c and the pot is shipped to you? Hell! then it'd be a $1.50 forgettable hand of the day where some fish played crappy cards and shoveled all of his american dollars to you!