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michael1123
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06-19-2004, 12:26 AM
Post subject: Problem in my game, all ins preflop and high pocket pairs
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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I'm a tight player preflop (in terms of choosing which hands to play), but an aggressive player after the flop, and I'm not afraid to bluff if I feel it'll win a hand. I prefer and do much better in tournaments and SNGs than I do in table games, and I win my share of tournaments. (I could ask for advice to help translate my success to table games, but I can also save that for another time)
But I have this problem with my game that I can't figure out, since it seems every time that I'm making the right play, but I get outdrawn so often.
When I feel positive that I have the best hand preflop (i.e. KK, QQ, JJ, usually), and I know I'll get a caller (big raise by someone else, or solid raise and enough callers to know that one is bound to call me), I have no hesitation putting myself all in. I'm usually correct about having the best hand, and about getting one caller (not that I mind if I just pick up the bets right there either).
But nearly every damn time it seems I'm in a situation like that, the person has A and a lower kicker than my pocket pair, and ends up hitting an ace. Now of course they don't always hit, and I win some hands like that, but due to the amount that I lose when I get one of those bad beats, it seems that this is really holding me back from being more profitable.
Nearly every single time I go or call an all in, I have the best hand, so I hardly ever give out bad beats on big bets / all ins, but I get them against me very frequently.
I'm starting to think that pushing in preflop in any case with a strong hand is a bad idea (unless you're short stacked in a tournament of course), unless you're positive they'll call (pot commited) when you have pocket aces. Calling an all in with KK may be worth it, but if you're the one betting, why not make sure there isn't an ace on the flop first?
But then again, my typical thinking is that I'm trying to make sure I bet the Ax hands out of calling me, so I don't get the bad beat. Not let them see the flop and hit two pair or a set with a low pair, etc. Instead I just end up losing more.
When there's a big bet and 2 calls to me, the type of time where I typically go all in with a KK to try and scare out the bad beats, should I raise less (and then possibly get an all in against me anyway, or possibly scare no one out?)? Should I just call it and hope for no overcards on the flop? Or am I right pushing in there, and just very unlucky?
Argh ... this game would be so much easier if so many people wouldn't call preflop all ins with hands like AT ...
Note: This problem does seem to happen to me more on tables (where I struggle anyway) than in tournaments. But then again, I'm often the big stack at the table in tournaments, and therefore can afford a bad beat every now and then, and still be alive. Its usually only a problem for me in tournaments very early on, where I haven't invested much time anyway, or at the end as a small stack, when my all in isn't very scary to players. So hell, this may relate to my problem at tables in general, I don't know.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Anyone have any advice at all?
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Les_Worm
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06-19-2004, 09:25 PM
Post subject: Re: Problem in my game, all ins preflop and high pocket pair
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#3 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: MI
Posts: 1,697
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Quote:
Nearly every single time I go or call an all in, I have the best hand, so I hardly ever give out bad beats on big bets / all ins, but I get them against me very frequently.
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Poker isn't about this session or that session, or even if you lose with those hands multiple times in a row. Poker is for a lifetime and its just one big session. Even though it doesn't seem like it you will win way more money then you lose over time.
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The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Still, I'm starting to think its more profitable to make a big raise, and then go all in at the flop, if there isn't an overcard. Less likely to get called and out drawn, and at least if its a one card beat, and its not on the flop, you've already seen most of the board, and your chances of a bad beat go down a ton, even if they do call.
That link to Phil Helmuth's journal that Ripptyde posted, which was intended to make him look like an idiot, got me thinking after reading through a lot more than just one entry. I think Phil has a point here, on folding big hands at times. Deep in a multitable tourney, when you're a good player and are profitable based on your play style, why risk shoving all in preflop with a hand like QQ? He wasn't so short stacked that he had to go all in, and when he's raised back big, he may be putting him on a lower pocket pair, but the guy could also easily at least have one over card, if not two with AK. Why risk your entire tournament, as a good player, on a very possible coinflip? Aren't your odds better not to do that if you're better than an average player in the tournament?
Not saying that you should never ever go in preflop on a non-pocket aces hand, but maybe not when the big reraiser has a bigger stack than you (unless you're short stacked or he's shown that he's a total maniac of course). I don't know, just floating some ideas around.
After reading that today, I've found more courage to make the right play, folding a hand like A9s in early position without even a limper to me. If Phil Helmuth can lay down pocket Qs twice in a row, I can find the patience to laydown hands like that, and save me some money in the long run. My best laydown in a multitable tourney today was when I raised 3x the big blind with AQs in middle position with only 1 or so limpers before me. The guy after me bet 3x my bet. Instead of acting hastily, I was thinking about what Phil was talking about. Not just looking at pot odds with my hand (and hope for an A or Q, whichever one he didn't have), but really thinking about what they'd re-raise like that with, and pinning them on an exact hand like he does in his tournaments. I folded after some thought, thinking he has something like KK. He showed pocket Qs, and I admited I had AQ.
Got pretty deep in two multiplayer tournaments today, partly because I think I developed a "only play aces" image for a while, after showing that I was folding some pretty good hands. One short stack was even shocked when I folded when he raised me all in (only about 3 times what I bet to him). He admitted he put me on pocket aces for trips, and thought he was beat! Can't complain about that, especially since I was 100% bluffing in that hand.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Just a note: First thing, I know the odds are with me on these preflop all ins, and I will technically win more hands than I lose this way. I'm a guy that uses the math, so that's why I've never had any hesitation going all in preflop when I know I have the best hand. Just to give you an idea, I've been playing Holdem online, pracitically every day, for 6 months now. I'm not saying this is a lot of time, but what I'm saying is that after every preflop all in bad beat I've had, I still never thought I was doing it wrong, or more correctly that there may be a better way, until really yesterday.
That is when I started to realize that I tend to bust out of multitable tournaments more on preflop all ins much more than I do on playing hands out (including all ins at the flop, turn, and river). And the kind of epiphany of this really being a problem in my game is what lead me to register with this forum (since I loved the site anyway), post that message, and see if I could get any advice on if it was possible to improve on the plain old "all-in!".
Just trying to think of possible better ways to play this is what lead me to think of the smooth call (if there's a huge raise to me - or big raise myself, but not all in, maybe 1/3 of my stack or something, so I'm not completely pot commited if an ace hits, I test him out with a bet, and a guy goes all in)check flop to make sure, method. Reading Phil's diary kind of confirmed this in my mind as a solid way to play, especially since he lists how long (usually a couple days) that its been since he's went all in, in his journals when he does. Obviously you have to be more conservative that way in multiday tournaments than you do in regular multitable tournaments, but the basis is there.
Now I'm kind of in an experimental mode, where I'm testing it out to see if it improves my game. I'd gladly take down an average of 2/3rds of the pot sizes I normally got on high pocket pair wins, if I can just cut the number of bad beats in 1/2. And hell, consider the rare times that you flop a set. Now you're looking great, and can maximize your profit by sucking the others in.
Sorry I've been long winded. This could be a radical improvement in my game if I can improve this area, so I'm trying to describe the situation as best I can, and give some ideas to bounce off of people here. All discussion and criticism is more than welcome.
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cHoCoL@Te
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 24
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I go "ALL IN" less now that I used to. Especially with a high pocket pair. One of the reasons being I have seen my QQ and JJ fall too many to A 4 offsuit.
So now I bet maybe 6 to 8 times the BB just so that if someone calls I still win a good chunk of change and if I lose I am still in the game.
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Legendash
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Full House
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Crypto 6max 100NL
Posts: 611
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I think your new approach sounds more sensible, I've played a lot of SNG's over the past couple of months and find that even though i know someone will probably call my all in on a great hand i prefer to put out a 6-8xBB bet to get rid of all the crap hands and see the flop from there, if someone reraises all in then i'll probably call with AA KK QQ AK because at the low limits i play people tend to go all in with rubbish.
Last night it was the final hand of a SNG, i had AA, the other guy had 22 and rivered a 2, most annoying. If i'd taken that hand he'd have had about 100 chips. Not that that's really relevant.
Post how the new approach does for you.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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For SnG's, being careful might be a good idea. For cash games, every time you fail to push an edge, it's oportunity lost. If they're calling all-in with 22 and you have QQ, push it baby! In the long run, we make most of our money from these calls.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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For sure if they're calling with 22, I love those odds. Its the one over and two over hands that bother me. If they'll call a big raise preflop with them, and then call an all in at the flop when an over doesn't hit, I'll take those odds too.
Anyway, I've hardly had a chance to test this out yet, but I definitely will do so.
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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I prefer cash games to tournaments. It sounds like you were rambling toward a solid strategy. As in all poker strategy- "it depends."
The following assumes a cash game, NL.
As a general rule, I will go all in pre-flop only on AA or KK. The only exception is when you have a good read on your opponent and they are clearly a maniac. In that case, I would maybe go all in w/ 88 and up but only if he puts you all in.
In cash games you really, really, really, want to avoid coin flips that are unavoidable in late stages of tournaments. In cash games you just raise 3-4xs BB to thin the field and hope your big hand holds up. Also, sometimes limp w/ big hand from early and middle position for a trap (only if you are at a tight table and only 3-4 people usually see flop which is not generally applicable to Party).
Post-flop the only time you are all in is if you hit your set AND there is a straight or flush draw because you need to take it down right there. OR You hit your straight AND there is a flush draw on the board. Otherwise, slow play it.
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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In a tournament, I think it is sound strategy to go all-in only after seeing the flop, provided the flop brings no overcards.
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xray
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 5
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I read an online interview that Dutch Boyd did and he said players do best to avoid going all-in in tournament play. In the 2003 WSOP, he said he and Chris Moneymaker only went all-in one time in that entire tourney.
He said , lets say you have AA vs 22 . you win . again AA vs 22 you win. again AAvs 22 you win. forth time your opponent makes his set. Your done.
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headhigh
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Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 12
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I think the above advice is correct. In tournaments you want to maximize your odds to win pots, while avoiding situations that put you all in. At least until the competition gets thinned out.
As the previous poster stated, you may win 3 out of 4 but if the fourth one knocks you outta the tourney, the other 3 don't do you any good. In tourneys, the "life is one big session" adage doesn't really apply as well as with money games.
Also, I don't have a list of starting hand match-ups but I don't think JJ has THAT much of an advantage over Axs. Does anyone have the numbers?
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Exactly, and that's what I think my problem was. Because I'd win 3 out of 4 or whatever, I'd continue thinking I was making the right play. But when that 1 out of 4 knocks you out of a multitable tourney before you enter the money so many times, it makes you rethink things.
Especially when your a middle stack or so. One tourney, I think soon before I posted this thread, I had QQ and the big (huge) stack at the table raised big preflop right to my right, with one limper behind me. I knew this guy was being very aggressive, so I shoved all in hoping to just pick the pot up there, but being ok with the call too. He had a suited connector, 76 of spades I believe, called, and hit a straight.
With KK, QQ, or JJ against Axs (I used A8 ), the pair has around a 67% chance of winning in each case. Not really a situation I want to go all in with every time preflop, unless they'll lay it down regularly.
I used this link to get the odds - http://www.internettexasholdem.com/c...poker-eval.cgi
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lambchopdc
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08-09-2006, 07:06 AM
Post subject: Re: Problem in my game, all ins preflop and high pocket pair
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#15 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 350
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
I'm a tight player preflop (in terms of choosing which hands to play)
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Quote:
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I'm starting to think that pushing in preflop in any case with a strong hand is a bad idea (unless you're short stacked in a tournament of course), unless you're positive they'll call (pot commited) when you have pocket aces. Calling an all in with KK may be worth it, but if you're the one betting, why not make sure there isn't an ace on the flop first?
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Pure gold. 
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Rockymv
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,177
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AHiltz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Coldbrook, NS
Posts: 1,589
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Quote:
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I'm a tight player preflop (in terms of choosing which hands to play)
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Where's the hand history of michael taking down a $8000+ pot at 2000NL with 82 soooooooted???????
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Chicago_Kid
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08-13-2006, 07:35 PM
Post subject: Re: Problem in my game, all ins preflop and high pocket pair
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#18 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
I'm a tight player preflop (in terms of choosing which hands to play)
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Quote:
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I'm starting to think that pushing in preflop in any case with a strong hand is a bad idea (unless you're short stacked in a tournament of course), unless you're positive they'll call (pot commited) when you have pocket aces. Calling an all in with KK may be worth it, but if you're the one betting, why not make sure there isn't an ace on the flop first?
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Pure gold. |
So the takeaways in my mind are to seek out tight/passive players and exploit them mercilessly. When things get tougher or cards get cold, I assume you then have to start putting them in the middle.
However, I sense that part of Michael is frustrated by bad beats lately. I just don't see a way to totally avoid putting your chips are risk if you want to win, and you aren't always going to be able to make someone fold. So I couldn't help think of Pyroxene's great post on the topic:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-25206.htm
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Rockymv
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08-13-2006, 07:38 PM
Post subject: Re: Problem in my game, all ins preflop and high pocket pair
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#19 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,177
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
I'm a tight player preflop (in terms of choosing which hands to play)
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Quote:
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I'm starting to think that pushing in preflop in any case with a strong hand is a bad idea (unless you're short stacked in a tournament of course), unless you're positive they'll call (pot commited) when you have pocket aces. Calling an all in with KK may be worth it, but if you're the one betting, why not make sure there isn't an ace on the flop first?
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Pure gold. |
So the takeaways in my mind are to seek out tight/passive players and exploit them mercilessly. When things get tougher or cards get cold, I assume you then have to start putting them in the middle.
However, I sense that part of Michael is frustrated by bad beats lately. I just don't see a way to totally avoid putting your chips are risk if you want to win, and you aren't always going to be able to make someone fold. So I couldn't help think of Pyroxene's great post on the topic:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-25206.htm |
ummm...did you notice the OP is from 2004?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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rofl awesome bump
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
rofl awesome bump
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Yeah, constructive post.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Admerylous
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware
Posts: 108
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Wonderful point you bring up, michael. I recently discovered something similar to what you are saying but I feel I only generally apply it while in tournaments. In ring games I will, for the most part, only all-in with AA or KK.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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*warning : constructive comment ahead*
this is awesome
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Admerylous
Wonderful point you bring up, michael. I recently discovered something similar to what you are saying but I feel I only generally apply it while in tournaments. In ring games I will, for the most part, only all-in with AA or KK.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rockymv
ummm...did you notice the OP is from 2004?
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This is hilarious
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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Admerylous
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware
Posts: 108
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bantam222
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 208
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cHoCoL@Te
I go "ALL IN" less now that I used to. Especially with a high pocket pair. One of the reasons being I have seen my QQ and JJ fall too many to A 4 offsuit.
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If you are playing within your bankroll, this shouldn't be a problem. You will win in the long run. And remember, even though your JJ is a good hand, when all in pre flop with 5 cards to come, it is only about a 2:1 favorite to win i believe.
However, going all in with hands like JJ and 10 10 isn't always the best idea. If it is being 3-bet or even 4-bet pre flop it is usually best to just call and see a flop. Then if it comes AK7 you can get out. Also, when it is 3-bet pre flop, hands like JJ are often dominated by a higher pocket pair, or at best a coin flip vs AK or something. Notice AOK's rule of contested pots. JJ is a good hand but the more raising that is going on the odds are higher that someone has a better hand.
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Rockymv
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,177
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bantam222
Quote:
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Originally Posted by cHoCoL@Te
I go "ALL IN" less now that I used to. Especially with a high pocket pair. One of the reasons being I have seen my QQ and JJ fall too many to A 4 offsuit.
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If you are playing within your bankroll, this shouldn't be a problem. You will win in the long run. And remember, even though your JJ is a good hand, when all in pre flop with 5 cards to come, it is only about a 2:1 favorite to win i believe.
However, going all in with hands like JJ and 10 10 isn't always the best idea. If it is being 3-bet or even 4-bet pre flop it is usually best to just call and see a flop. Then if it comes AK7 you can get out. Also, when it is 3-bet pre flop, hands like JJ are often dominated by a higher pocket pair, or at best a coin flip vs AK or something. Notice AOK's rule of contested pots. JJ is a good hand but the more raising that is going on the odds are higher that someone has a better hand. |
some of you don't seem to be getting the point of this bump...
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Admerylous
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware
Posts: 108
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Just because it is an ancient thread doesn't mean that it isn't worth discussing.
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Crazy Scot
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 37
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I'm guessing that most of the people who don't get it, just don't know who Micheal1123 is. Check the MTT forum guides and the article about his WSOP 2005 experiances, and maybe you'll catch the humor in the original post.
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