*** The Official MAGAposting thread ***

[OngBonga]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53811375

Another black person gets pulled over and accuses the police of racism. This guy is a senior inspector. Cops reeled off the usual bullshit, driving at speed, maybe ignoring a red light, blah blah blah. Here's his car...



Not your average black BMW.

"The officers did not believe or did not care that I was an officer, because I am black. They are both clearly racist police officers pretending to be polite whilst falsely accusing me without any evidence whatsoever of having committed serious criminal and road traffic act offences."

I don't doubt that a serving cop in a Honda Washing Machine is likely driving responsibly and was pulled over frivolously. I know bored cops make up bullshit to justify themselves. But when it happens to white people, we don't get to play the race card. This guy immediately plays the "I'm a cop" card and when that doesn't work he plays the race card. He's pissed off that his cop privilege wasn't acknowledged.

Last time I was out and about, I actually tried to determine the race of the driver of the car in front. I was unable to do it in nearly all cases, and those that I could were white with big fat shiny bald heads. Maybe I need more practice.

I honestly think racial profiling in this context is a myth. Very, very rarely does a car get pulled over purely because of the skin colour of the driver. It's ridiculous.

[Poopadoop]

I honestly think racial profiling in this context is a myth. Very, very rarely does a car get pulled over purely because of the skin colour of the driver. It's ridiculous.

Your evidence so far is that two black people went Karen when they were pulled over. The link Oskar gave shows the actual numbers. So yeah, think I'll go with that.

[Poopadoop]

Meanwhile in MEGA country.

https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/sta...53904483586049

[OngBonga]

Did you try to racially profile people from behind them on the road? Try it.

[Poopadoop]

Did you try to racially profile people from behind them on the road? Try it.

I almost never see black people where I live, so it's hard to test that theory. The last black person I saw driving a car was coming towards me, and it was certainly easy to see he was black from that direction. So I guess if there are racist cops, all black people need to do is make sure they never drive towards them or let themselves be seen from the side at an intersection, and yeah the cops might struggle to id them.

[OngBonga]

I can just imagine it now. Two cops driving down the road, see a car go the other way driven by a black guy, the cops are all "Did you see that? He's black." before slamming the brakes on and doing a Holywood turn with blue lights and sirens and everything.

"Excuse me sir, you didn't indicate, may I see you licence?"

[Poopadoop]

I can just imagine it now. Two cops driving down the road, see a car go the other way driven by a black guy, the cops are all "Did you see that? He's black." before slamming the brakes on and doing a Holywood turn with blue lights and sirens and everything.

"Excuse me sir, you didn't indicate, may I see you licence?"

Pretty sure racists know to be more subtle than that these days.

More like Cop A: "I think that guy didn't indicate, let's check him out." Cop B: "Ok."

Race never gets mentioned, they both cover their asses, so Constable MEGA gets to have a hardon for Farage for a few minutes and Constable Trainee isn't about to start asking awkward questions on his third day on the job.

[Poopadoop]

I'm not saying all cops are hardcore racists with swastikas tattooed on their balls, just going around looking for black people to harass. I'm saying there is racism on the force that ranges from none to strong, and it gets manifest in police behaviour whether they do it purposely or not. Some of them probably genuinely don't think they're being racist because they "only" harass black people marginally more often than they harass white people, and don't beat them up, and others are MEGA-tards who hold negative views of anyone who isn't white, and dole out as much mistreatment to them as they think they can get away with.

Not sure why that's such a hard thing to believe.

[OngBonga]

It's so subtle that he doesn't even need to think anything racist, it just happens.

Here's the thing. When the most newsworthy acts of "racism" in 2020 that our cops are doing is pulling black people over, then that tells me our cops aren't actually racist. The media are scraping the barrel here.

[Poopadoop]

When the most newsworthy acts of "racism" in 2020 that our cops are doing is pulling black people over, then that tells me our cops aren't actually racist. The media are scraping the barrel here.

Easy to say when you've never been pulled over for having the wrong skin colour.

Also, explain why black people are so much more likely to be pulled over than whites, if not racism.

[OngBonga]

I speculated on that already. Read my reply to oskar.

[Poopadoop]

I speculated on that already. Read my reply to oskar.

Oh yeah, forgot about that.


Q: Why are black people stopped so much more often than whites?

Ong: Maybe because they're poor and can't afford to fix a tail light.

Q: Why are they poor?

Ong: 'Cause they don't pull themselves up out of poverty.

Q: ...


Also Ong: I'm not racist at all and neither are the police. Everyone who claims racism is a snowflake (paraphrasing here).

Also Ong: Look, here's a video of someone black who was pulled over and played the race card. That proves the cops aren't racist.

[Poopadoop]

Anyways this is the MAGA thread. Maybe we could have a separate thread for MEGA.

In MAGA news:

https://twitter.com/i/events/1295838673284427777

[Poopadoop]

Bannon arrested for Wall fundraising scam.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53853297

Well, that makes pretty much everyone on Trump's campaign team now. No wonder DJT is trying to Putin the election.

[oskar]

Very much looking forward to the highlight reel from the RNC convention.

[oskar]

Bannon arrested for Wall fundraising scam.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53853297

Well, that makes pretty much everyone on Trump's campaign team now. No wonder DJT is trying to Putin the election.

I wonder what that's all about. They wouldn't arrest him over that pending charges unless they think he's a flight risk, right? Might also be theater...
You know, you can say what you want about the RNC inviting Ken and Karen as well as the maga hat fret boy... at least they're not pulling a DNC and inviting left wing war criminals to cater to god knows who.
Colin Powell? Seriously?
On one hand: why am I surprised? On the other hand: who could have been worse, and is this a strategy?
Is there a possible upside to tell 80% of their voting base to eat shit and die just to pull it around at the last second in some kind of deranged circus act?

[OngBonga]

I haven't seen any proof that cops in this country are racist. I see stats that suggest more black people get pulled over. That's it. The only events making the news right now are tenuous examples like the two I've posted, neither of which convince me there's a problem. That stats oskar posted imply there's something going on, but it's kneejerk to assume it's racism without further context. If there's a problem with racism with the police in the UK, the problem extends to the allegedly independent regulator. The very structure of our law makes it difficult to be overtly racist.

One reason black people get pulled over more could be because black people are more likely to be immigrants, and accustomed to different driving regulations. That in turn might make them more likely to attract the attention of police. Pure speculation, but it's also highly speculative to assume racism is the reason. What I do know is it's not easy to racially identify drivers from behind. I guess I'd get better at it with practice. I'll keep trying, it's a fun game to pass the time on journeys.

[Poopadoop]

at least they're not pulling a DNC and inviting left wing war criminals to cater to god knows who.
Colin Powell? Seriously?

Trying their hardest to be inclusive. Even war criminals are welcome in our party!

Is there a possible upside to tell 80% of their voting base to eat shit and die just to pull it around at the last second in some kind of deranged circus act?

I think the whole country is so polarized now it hardly matters what either side does. On election day, the Trumptards are going to vote Trump no matter what is happening around them, the hardcore antifa and other dem fans will vote Biden even if he's just had a stroke and can no longer feed himself, and the ones in the middle will look at their bank accounts and how many relatives are dead from CV and will vote Biden 'cause they can only blame that on Trump.

The good news is that Trump is so incompetent there is no way he turns the economy and the pandemic response around by Nov. If anything, he'll probably find ways to make it worse. Or, just burn down the post office or have some other kind of Reichstag fire event he'll use to declare no more elections.

[MadMojoMonkey]

The good news is that Trump is so incompetent there is no way he turns the economy and the pandemic response around by Nov. If anything, he'll probably find ways to make it worse. Or, just burn down the post office or have some other kind of Reichstag fire event he'll use to declare no more elections.

How is any of that good news?

[oskar]

Well If I can answer that: You guys are approaching 200k in mostly avoidable deaths, unemployment is at a record high and you're closing in on an eviction wave that will leave millions of americans homeless... with all of that, the democratic challenger is leading in the single digits.
Now imagine if Trump orders a national mask mandate and offers $2k UBI for every american for the duration of the pandemic. Everyone gets a fat cheque... let's call 'em Trump Bucks. I don't think Joe Biden still leads by 8 points in that scenario. Throw in a war with Iran and Trump would crush it.

[Poopadoop]

How is any of that good news?

Only the first sentence was meant to be the good news, assuming it means he'll be gone soon. The rest is fucking scary I agree.

[Poopadoop]

This is going to be one hell of a snooze-fest.





Lol, he can barely get anyone outside his own family to appear with him.

[Jack Sawyer]

No, but being the same race, while driving a car a local cop is unfamiliar with, while they are looking for someone described as black and from out of town, that is. And to be clear, we're using the word "detain" loosely here, as in detained at the road side for five minutes. Cop can do that for pretty much any reason, such as checking the tread on your tires. Of course the cop needs more to make an arrest, but getting pulled over is part and parcel of driving a car, just like stopping at traffic lights. It happens to most people, and it's nearly always for a reason. Does it happen to more people than others? Sure. I'm betting black Mercedes get pulled over more often than Nissan Micras. I'm guessing fast cars get pulled over more than slow ones. I'm guessing people of all races get pulled over more often in crime hotspots than in low crime areas. Cops have got a job to do, and racial profiling is inevitably part of that job, because skin colour is an important aspect of a person's description. Is offending racially sensitive people worse than crime?

Oh lord you are so very wrong ong

With so many excuses I'm starting to think you are getting ready to jump out of the closet

Having to see someone as suspect because "they are black" and "drive a car" is exactly the kind of broad generalization that people are so against ong

[Jack Sawyer]

No, but being the same race, while driving a car a local cop is unfamiliar with, while they are looking for someone described as black and from out of town, that is. And to be clear, we're using the word "detain" loosely here, as in detained at the road side for five minutes. Cop can do that for pretty much any reason, such as checking the tread on your tires. Of course the cop needs more to make an arrest, but getting pulled over is part and parcel of driving a car, just like stopping at traffic lights. It happens to most people, and it's nearly always for a reason. Does it happen to more people than others? Sure. I'm betting black Mercedes get pulled over more often than Nissan Micras. I'm guessing fast cars get pulled over more than slow ones. I'm guessing people of all races get pulled over more often in crime hotspots than in low crime areas. Cops have got a job to do, and racial profiling is inevitably part of that job, because skin colour is an important aspect of a person's description. Is offending racially sensitive people worse than crime?

Racial or ethnic profiling is the act of suspecting or targeting a person on the basis of assumed characteristics or behavior of a racial or ethnic group, rather than on individual suspicion.[1][2] Racial profiling, however, is not limited only to an individual's ethnicity or race, but can also be based on the individual's religion, or national origin.[

Are you sure that racial profiling is inevitably part of the job that cops have to do?

[Jack Sawyer]

Oh look, here's another doctored video. They even photoshopped the steering wheel in to make it look like she was driving in this one.

"Oh we run tags all the time, that's how we figure out if the cars are stolen or anything"

A few quick questions: why would you want to figure out if the car is stolen out of the blue? What reason do you have to run the plates? What crime has been committed that alerted you to the presence of this particular car? Do you really sit down and run every plate, or does the car have to fit a certain criteria before you do so? If so, what is the criteria?

[OngBonga]

Are you sure that racial profiling is inevitably part of the job that cops have to do?

By the definition of "racial profiling" you cite, no it is not inevitable. But to clarify, I am being a little more loose with my definition, perhaps incorrectly, but given the context of how I use that term, it is inevitable. Perhaps I should use the term "racial identification". You understand that's inevitable, right? You realise that it's ridiculous for the police to question white people if they are specifically looking for a black person, right?

If a cop thinks to himself "black people are more likely to have drugs, this guy is black" then yes, that's unacceptable and not a policy I can support. I just don't think that's what's happening here in the UK.

[OngBonga]

With so many excuses I'm starting to think you are getting ready to jump out of the closet

And this is just typical of what I expect from modern left wingers.

I don't understand your pov, therefore you're racist.

Do better.

[Poopadoop]

And this is just typical of what I expect from modern left wingers.

I don't understand your pov, therefore you're racist.

Do better.

Your pov is to deny racism exists in the UK police in the face of all evidence to the contrary, which can most generously be called wilfull naivete.

I don't go around calling people racist lightly, but you're walking a pretty fine line with this whole denial of the problem thing. There's something suspect about people who pretend there's nothing to see when there obviously is.

[Poopadoop]

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-16/...ture-of-racism

That's a hell of a big majority of people to think such a thing if there weren't really a problem.

[OngBonga]

Your pov is to deny racism exists in the UK police in the face of all evidence to the contrary...

Sorry, what have I missed? The only evidence presented so far is the figure that oskar posted. You're exaggerating the nature of the evidence in question.

I don't go around calling people racist lightly, but you're walking a pretty fine line with this whole denial of the problem thing.

Even if I'm wrong, that doesn't make me racist.

There's something suspect about people who pretend there's nothing to see when there obviously is.

Lots of people saying "that's racist" does not mean something is obviously racist. You're jumping to conclusions, which is fine, but you're also assuming anyone who doesn't jump to the same conclusion as you is racist, which is not fine.

Show me all the evidence which you speak of. Show me there's a problem with institutional racism in the UK police. You'll need more than "10x more black people get pulled over than white people", because if that's the extent of "racism" in the UK police, we must have the least racist police in Europe.

[OngBonga]

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-16/...ture-of-racism

That's a hell of a big majority of people to think such a thing if there weren't really a problem.

This isn't evidence of racism. This is evidence of perceived racism. They are most definitely not the same thing.

The media have been doing their utmost in the last few months to convince people there is a problem, so of course people think there's a problem. Where's the evidence though?

[OngBonga]

I mean, I think there's a problem with paedophilia in elite circles. If you don't blindly believe any evidence I present, such as the lack of media coverage at Buckingham Palace as protesters chant "paedophiles", you must be a paedophile, right?

That's your logic.

[OngBonga]

Just reading that link...

the whole tree is rotten, our whole justice system is rotten, the way that we would prosecute a white people and black people for the same crime but a black person will get a longer sentence, the whole institution itself is wrong," she added.

idk about the accuracy of this claim, but let's say black people do get longer sentences on average than white people, all else being equal. That isn't the police being racist, it's the courts.

Even that article presented literally no evidence. Nothing except a poll of what people think. It doesn't even tell us how many people were polled, or the demographic breakdown. It's pure junk.

How are you buying this as evidence?

[Poopadoop]

Suddenly Ong is interested in seeing the evidence.

Isn't this where you usually say 'go do your own homework'?



Here's a start:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...-sentences.pdf

[Poopadoop]

Here are what some police have to say:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/artic...a-4fa4368ef839

And the critical bit at the end.

Chief Constable Garry Forsyth from Bedfordshire Police in a statement says racism has no place in policing and it is an issue that is close to his heart that he is determined to tackle.

He states: "It is important that these former officers have spoken out about being subjected to racism while working for Bedfordshire Police and I'm sorry there was not suitable support in place to encourage them to stay within our organisation and continue their careers with the force."

The Chief Constable goes on to say as a force they are working hard to put new processes in place to support police officers from all backgrounds including appointing a new Chief Superintendent to look at recruitment, retention and progression but and admits there is still more to be done.

The Chief Constable says there is still more to be done. That doesn't sound like there's no problem to me.

[OngBonga]

...

idk about the accuracy of this claim, but let's say black people do get longer sentences on average than white people, all else being equal. That isn't the police being racist, it's the courts.

[OngBonga]

The Chief Constable says there is still more to be done. That doesn't sound like there's no problem to me.

I mean, does it not occur to you that you're scraping the barrel here?

Someone saying "there's a problem" is not evidence there's a problem. Your idea of proving there's racism in the UK police is to show the courts might be racist in their sentencing, and then quoting a cop who says "yeah there's a problem".

I'm yet to see actual police racism, just people saying it's a problem.

[Poopadoop]

Even if I'm wrong, that doesn't make me racist.

You can either be in favour of racism or in favour of equality.

When one pretends it doesn't exist, therefore doesn't need fixing, and therefore they can go on enjoying the benefits of the system that favours them, yeah that's favouring racism over equality, and yeah that's being racist.

[Poopadoop]

I mean, does it not occur to you that you're scraping the barrel here?

Someone saying "there's a problem" is not evidence there's a problem. Your idea of proving there's racism in the UK police is to show the courts might be racist in their sentencing, and then quoting a cop who says "yeah there's a problem".

I'm yet to see actual police racism, just people saying it's a problem.

Don't know what to tell you. Open your eyes.

[OngBonga]

You can either be in favour of racism or in favour of equality.

When one pretends it doesn't exist, therefore doesn't need fixing, and therefore they can go on enjoying the benefits of the system that favours them, yeah that's favouring racism over equality, and yeah that's being racist.

What absolute bollocks. You should be a politician with rhetoric like this.

[OngBonga]

Don't know what to tell you. Open your eyes.

So you don't have any evidence other than "obviously"?

[Poopadoop]

Here's some more not-evidence for you.

https://www.runnymedetrust.org/uploa...icing%20v5.pdf

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9570956.html

Ben Bowling, a professor of criminology at Kings College London, said British policing “remains institutionally racist”

[Poopadoop]

So you don't have any evidence other than "obviously"?

Where is the evidence to support your claims of equality?

[Poopadoop]

What absolute bollocks. You should be a politician with rhetoric like this.

Not bollocks at all.

If someone decides to split a prize between me and a black person, and I end up getting 75% of the prize, and then someone asks me if I think it's fair and I say "Nothing to see here", then I'm a racist, a cunt, or possibly both.

[OngBonga]

Where is the evidence to support your claims of equality?

Equality in the police? Well, roughly 1 in 7 cops are BAME. Also, roughly 1 in 7 people in the UK are BAME. There's equality.


Also, the police did that ridiculous knee thing. They wanted to demonstrate that they are not racist. I guess taking the knee is something racist people do to pretend they're not racist, right?


Besides, it's not as binary as you seem to think. Equality is not the polar opposite of racism. You can think all races are equal while being sexist. You can be racist while promoting equality between sexes.


Your first link is too long for me to bother reading. I scanned until I got to De Menzes, a Brazilian who was shot by cops. That's murky as fuck and we don't know why he was shot. Officially, he was misindentified, but he was apparently running from cops. To say he was shot because of racism is as valid as saying he was shot because he knew something that the state did not want him to disclose. It's pure speculation based on no evidence whatsoever. The facts of this incident were covered up. I didn't read beyond that


The second link is an Independent article which provides only speculation, such as "we strongly believe..." and "non-white people may have been given more fines...", and you proudly quote someone's opinion as though it's evidence.

Serious question. Did you real all that first article that you linked? Do you expect me to? Is there any direct evidence of racism? Or is it yet more speculation?

[OngBonga]

Not bollocks at all.

If someone decides to split a prize between me and a black person, and I end up getting 75% of the prize, and then someone asks me if I think it's fair and I say "Nothing to see here", then I'm a racist, a cunt, or possibly both.

What a ridiculous example.

[Poopadoop]

Equality in the police? Well, roughly 1 in 7 cops are BAME. Also, roughly 1 in 7 people in the UK are BAME. There's equality.

Glad to see the people doing the hiring aren't breaking the law in an obvious way.

Also, the police did that ridiculous knee thing. They wanted to demonstrate that they are not racist. I guess taking the knee is something racist people do to pretend they're not racist, right?

TIL that pretending not to be racist while being racist never happens. Also that if a few people in a group do something, that represents how the entire group feels.

Besides, it's not as binary as you seem to think. Equality is not the polar opposite of racism. You can think all races are equal while being sexist. You can be racist while promoting equality between sexes.

Well done at being a pedant here. The opposite of racism is (racial) equality. Sorry for not spelling that obvious thing out since it's obviously an important part of the obvious point of that post.

I want to see evidence, unless it requires any active effort on my part, like reading.

fyp

Serious question. Did you real all that first article that you linked? Do you expect me to? Is there any direct evidence of racism? Or is it yet more speculation?

What direct evidence are you looking for exactly? Would this count? I appreciate it's more than two sentences long, so I hope it doesn't put you over your reading limit.

Here's an example (p. 24-25)

Consider that Ministry of Justice Data recorded for 2011/12 shows that 91% of stop and searches (under PACE Section 1) in England and Wales did not lead to an arrest. Jason’s experience would be among the 9% that did. Even fewer arrests, less than 10% of that 9% (or 0.9% overall) result in a conviction. Racialised people, especially Black people, are regularly subjected to this humiliating intrusion of personal space and violation of body autonomy.

The reason given by police for over 50% of the PACE Section 1 stop and searches in London in 2013/14 is drugs. Release, a drugs and human rights charity recently conducted a study into drug policing called The Numbers in Black and White. It found that people who identified as ‘White’ were twice as likely to use or have taken drugs than people of African heritage. However, in London, people described as ‘Black’ were six times more likely to be stopped and searched for drugs.

[OngBonga]

It found that people who identified as ‘White’ were twice as likely to use or have taken drugs than people of African heritage. However, in London, people described as ‘Black’ were six times more likely to be stopped and searched for drugs.

I mean you post this without the slightest awareness of deliberate misinformation in this very quote. It first compares whites with Africans, and then concludes based on whites vs blacks. Why didn't they compare whites vs blacks in both cases?

Also, this claim is directly contradicted by your first link today, this one...
https://assets.publishing.service.go...-sentences.pdf

According to these figures, white women are around 20% more likely than black women to be convicted for drug offences, but black men are much more likely than white men, like 70% more likely.

And you moan at me for not being arsed to read a book.

Let's look at some govt statistics.
crime.jpg

82% of the UK population is white. 78% of arrests are white people. Whites account for 80% of prosecutions and 81% of convictions. 79% of people who go to prison are white, 73% of the current prison population are white. That last one might be a problem, but then again it does not say how many people are repeat offenders, and for those that are, to what extent.

Stop and search is at 59% for whites. This seems to be the area where there's most cause for concern. But then again, the population of whites in London, where most stop and searches happen, is 45%, well below the national average. So there's that to take into account.

From what I can gather, it's inconclusive. There is no evidence of institutional racism, just figures which are taken out of context, either for the sake of simplicity, or because of deliberate manipulation. To conclude the police are racist on such evidence is knee jerk. You've already decided they are, and so will take the figures at face value without thinking about how they have been presented.

[Poopadoop]

Let's look at some govt statistics.
crime.jpg

You're presenting objective evidence against your position and trying to explain why we shouldn't believe it. You've gone from denial to gaslighting.

In 2011, 87% of the pop. was white. Let's say in 2018 it had gone down a few pct.. You say it's 82% now. Fine. The proportion white in every single one of those categories is < 82%, often much less.

But never mind that, just look at the stop and searches. That's where the police are working without any obvious supervision or balances in the system, before any arrests are made. That's 59% White to 41% BAME. It's obviously a problem.

... will take the figures at face value without thinking about how they have been presented.

The figures are what they are, there's nothing anyone can do to present them as different numbers.

[OngBonga]

You're presenting objective evidence against your position and trying to explain why we shouldn't believe it. You've gone from denial to gaslighting.

It's fascinating that this is your interpretation.

just look at the stop and searches.

I did, which is precisely the reason I felt the need to check the percentage of white people in London, rather than the UK as a whole. I'm sure I read somewhere in this discussion that around half of all stop and searches are in London. So this alone will significantly boost the number of black people getting stopped.

The figures are what they are, there's nothing anyone can do to present them as different numbers.

Are you suggesting it's impossible to misrepresent numbers? Because if so, I'm gonna stop saying things like "you're not this stupid", because clearly you would be.

[OngBonga]

The proportion white in every single one of those categories is < 82%, often much less.

Only the stop and search was "much" less. The prison population was notable, but not alarming without further context. The other figures roughly correlate with the national average. I'm not gonna sweat over a few percentage points, especially given that these numbers are not broken down into region.

[Poopadoop]

I did, which is precisely the reason I felt the need to check the percentage of white people in London, rather than the UK as a whole. I'm sure I read somewhere in this discussion that around half of all stop and searches are in London. So this alone will significantly boost the number of black people getting stopped.

https://www.stop-watch.org/your-area/area/metropolitan

Are you suggesting it's impossible to misrepresent numbers?

No, I read your posts.

[Poopadoop]

That link above about stops in London is pretty long for you to read, heres' a highilght:

There is greater disproportionality under section 60, a power which does not require officers to have suspicion in order to search a person. Black people were searched at 11 times the rate of whites, mixed people at just under three times, Asians twice, and Chinese or 'other' people just under one and a half times the rate of whites across the Capital.

No suspicion, just racial profiling/harassment.

Checkmate.

[OngBonga]

White people in Birmingham - 68%
Manchester - 67%

So the two biggest cities after London are also well below national average, though not on the same level as London. But there's a pattern here... bigger cities have a higher black population than average, and this is also where the bulk of police activity is, especially stop and search, and traffic cops. So it comes as no surprise to me that the numbers are not a direct correlation.

It doesn't have to be racism, it can simply be caused by urban vs rural factors.

[OngBonga]

That link above about stops in London is pretty long for you to read, heres' a highilght:

Interesting. If you dig into that, black people are overly represented when it comes to stop and search, but not stop and account. Black people are asked what they're doing at 1.1x the rate white people are. But black people are searched way more often. So why the difference here? Again, I can think of one reason immediately that isn't "racism". Perhaps white people are less obnoxious when stopped by police, perhaps black people are more likely to act like they're trying to hide something. But of course this is speculation, just as you're speculating by saying it's racial profiling or harassment.

[OngBonga]

I mean, the difference between us is you just think "racism", while I try to consider other reasons. I don't pretend to be right, but you do. You are certain it's racism. I don't think it is. I could be wrong. You don't think you could be wrong. There's a big difference in the way we present our arguments. I know I am speculating. You don't realise that you are too.

[Poopadoop]

I mean, the difference between us is you just think "racism", while I try to consider other reasons. I don't pretend to be right, but you do. You are certain it's racism. I don't think it is. I could be wrong. You don't think you could be wrong. There's a big difference in the way we present our arguments. I know I am speculating. You don't realise that you are too.

No the difference is that I recognize when the evidence is strong and leans towards a certain conclusion, and you grasp for any excuse to dismiiss the evidence. And when each excuse you present gets shot down, you come up with another.

[Poopadoop]

Interesting. If you dig into that, black people are overly represented when it comes to stop and search, but not stop and account. Black people are asked what they're doing at 1.1x the rate white people are.

I think you're reading that wrong. 1.1x means 110% more, not 10% more.

Edit: Oh wait, I think I'm wrong. Nvr mind.



In any case, stop and account is miles less intrusive than stop and search. The cop is basically just saying hello to see if you run away.

[Poopadoop]

So why the difference here? Again, I can think of one reason immediately that isn't "racism". Perhaps white people are less obnoxious when stopped by police, perhaps black people are more likely to act like they're trying to hide something. But of course this is speculation, just as you're speculating by saying it's racial profiling or harassment.

^^ Gives a race-based explanation that he claims isn't racism.

[OngBonga]

No the difference is that I recognize when the evidence is strong and leans towards a certain conclusion, and you grasp for any excuse to dismiiss the evidence. And when each excuse you present gets shot down, you come up with another.

Ok so we disagree on what "strong evidence" is. Because I haven't seen any yet.

I think you're reading that wrong. 1.1x means 110% more, not 10% more.

I'm trying my hardest to understand why you would think this. It seems completely illogical to assume this.

This means that, across London, black people were subject to an account at 1.1 times the rate of whites

This is the exact wording. I'm pretty sure you're wrong to say this represents 110% rather than 10%. If 100 whites get pulled, 110 blacks get pulled. That's 1.1x the rate.

^^ Gives a race-based explanation that he claims isn't racism.

Once again, you knee jerk into racism. It was a speculative suggestion, but it could be accurate. There could be a cultural problem with how black people interact with police compared to white people. I don't know this, but if it's true, it's not the police's fault, so it's not police racism.

[OngBonga]

This is the exact wording. I'm pretty sure you're wrong to say this represents 110% rather than 10%. If 100 whites get pulled, 110 blacks get pulled. That's 1.1x the rate.

In fact this is wrong, too. Those numbers are surely per capita. But there's no way "1.1x the rate" means 110% more, it meas 110% in total, ie 10% more than 100%.

[Poopadoop]

Once again, you knee jerk into racism. It was a speculative suggestion, but it could be accurate. There could be a cultural problem with how black people interact with police compared to white people. I don't know this, but if it's true, it's not the police's fault, so it's not police racism.

Pointing out a racist comment isn't knee-jerk.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt for a long time before this. But your continued insistence on pretending there's no racism in the UK police in the face of clear evidence to the contrary is going beyond just ignorance and entering the realm of MEGA territory.

[Poopadoop]

I don't know this, but if it's true, it's not the police's fault, so it's not police racism.

I'm going to join your speculation game and guess there's quite a few racist cops who use the same argument.

[OngBonga]

Pointing out a racist comment isn't knee-jerk.

If you think my comment was racist, then it's no wonder you think racism is such a problem. From my pov, the problem is that people haven't a fucking clue what racism means.

clear evidence

What evidence? Statistics? That's all that has been presented so far. That isn't "clear evidence". It's an indication there is a problem along racial lines, but it is far from proven that the problem lies with the police.

[OngBonga]

I'm going to join your speculation game and guess there's quite a few racist cops who use the same argument.

You're already speculating, and have been for as long as I have. Like I say, the difference is I know I'm speculating, while you think you're not.

[Jack Sawyer]

Equality in the police? Well, roughly 1 in 7 cops are BAME. Also, roughly 1 in 7 people in the UK are BAME. There's equality.


Also, the police did that ridiculous knee thing. They wanted to demonstrate that they are not racist. I guess taking the knee is something racist people do to pretend they're not racist, right?


Besides, it's not as binary as you seem to think. Equality is not the polar opposite of racism. You can think all races are equal while being sexist. You can be racist while promoting equality between sexes.


Your first link is too long for me to bother reading. I scanned until I got to De Menzes, a Brazilian who was shot by cops. That's murky as fuck and we don't know why he was shot. Officially, he was misindentified, but he was apparently running from cops. To say he was shot because of racism is as valid as saying he was shot because he knew something that the state did not want him to disclose. It's pure speculation based on no evidence whatsoever. The facts of this incident were covered up. I didn't read beyond that


The second link is an Independent article which provides only speculation, such as "we strongly believe..." and "non-white people may have been given more fines...", and you proudly quote someone's opinion as though it's evidence.

Serious question. Did you real all that first article that you linked? Do you expect me to? Is there any direct evidence of racism? Or is it yet more speculation?

In the US, before the pandemic got everything upended the NBA finals happened with the warriors going up against the raptors.

The raptors won. Right there, trying to join his team to celebrate, the top raptors exec masai ujiri tried to get onto the court. A cop/sherrif/deputy stopped him in his tracks, I'm not sure which. When he reached into his pockets for his credentials, he was shoved by his detainer. Twice. The dude that stopped him then proceeded to file charges against him because Ujuri "assaulted him physically" and "caused untold psychological damage" to this innocent, innocent copper. The cop even proceeded to file a lawsuit vs Ujiri, alleging Ujiri attacked him "and hit him in the face and chest with both fists." And also that he "suffered, and will continue to suffer, physical, mental, emotional, and economic injuries, including, but not limited to, lost wages, lost opportunity for financial gain, future earning capacity, and past and future medical care and expenses.".

The whole rhetoric from that day on has been that Ujiri "is violent", "should resign", "in unacceptable to be an exec of any team", and my favorite "why would the cop lie". Ujiri was literally dragged through the mud for more than a year, as this happened in April of last year. His team , though, did not cave in to public pressure and stood by their guy.

And then, miraculously, the body cam footage was released. LOL

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ls/3398114001/

[Poopadoop]

If you think my comment was racist, then it's no wonder you think racism is such a problem. From my pov, the problem is that people haven't a fucking clue what racism means.

"Maybe black people get searched because they're obnoxious to cops" is a racist statement. Whether you think it is or not is relevant only to your self-image.

And I acknowledge there are people who play the race card where it's inappropriate, and that there are Karens of every colour. But I also know racist talk when I hear it.

What evidence? Statistics? That's all that has been presented so far. That isn't "clear evidence". It's an indication there is a problem along racial lines, but it is far from proven that the problem lies with the police.

Yeah, statistics count as evidence that non-whites get searched without a reason being given more than whites. Not sure what evidence you'd accept, but I'm guessing it would be impossible to convince you.

In contrast to the statistics, all you have is 'blame the victim' arguments. Which are, as I pointed out, in themselves racist.

People who think they aren't racist because they don't go around beating up people of a different colour, while at the same time say racist shit and try to stick up for racist cops, are still racists in my book.

You don't have to do physical violence to a POC to be a racist, if you condone racist behaviour and make excuses for it, that's enough.

[Poopadoop]

You're already speculating, and have been for as long as I have. Like I say, the difference is I know I'm speculating, while you think you're not.

The difference is I'm giving you facts and numbers and you're giving me bullshit...

[OngBonga]

In the US...

If I need to clarify, I am not for a minute suggesting that there is no problem with racism with cops in the USA.

[OngBonga]

"Maybe black people get searched because they're obnoxious to cops" is a racist statement.

No, it isn't. It's not hateful, it's not discriminatory, it's not a statement of superiority. It's speculation that might or might not be accurate. Like I say, if you think that comment is racism, you don't understand racism.

Yeah, statistics count as evidence

Statistics do not tell us why something is happening, and the why is extremely important when it comes to racism.

In contrast to the statistics, all you have is 'blame the victim' arguments. Which are, as I pointed out, in themselves racist.

I didn't "blame the victim". For a start, I said "maybe", as in speculation. And secondly, you're not a victim just because a cop asked you what you're doing.

People who think they aren't racist because they don't go around beating up people of a different colour, while at the same time say racist shit and try to stick up for racist cops, are still racists in my book.

Your book is stupid.

You don't have to do physical violence to a POC to be a racist, if you condone racist behaviour and make excuses for it, that's enough.

I'm not condoning racist behaviour. I'm speculating as to why allegedly racist behaviour might not be racist. You just really, really want me to be racist because that's what lefties do when they can't get into the head of someone who doesn't knee jerk into racism at the first opportunity.

[OngBonga]

The difference is I'm giving you facts and numbers and you're giving me bullshit...

You're giving me contradictory numbers that don't tell us anything about the why. I seem to understand, and you don't, that this proves nothing. When you accuse someone of racism, whether that be the police or an individual, you need conclusive proof, not statistics alone, and not a hypothetical book.

[Poopadoop]

You're giving me contradictory numbers that don't tell us anything about the why. I seem to understand, and you don't, that this proves nothing. When you accuse someone of racism, whether that be the police or an individual, you need conclusive proof, not statistics alone, and not a hypothetical book.

The proportion of stop and searches that are POC contradicts nothing except your worldview.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize it's the cops who decide who they stop and search. Your theory seems to be that the cop randomly picks someone to stop, ignoring their colour, and then if that person happens to mouth off, they also get searched. Otherwise they get a nice pat on the head and a smile. And then, on top of that, you "speculate" that black people are wayyyy more likely to mouth off than white people, perhaps because of their "culture" (which is a chickenshit way of saying race).

You know what? I speculate that when black people used to get lynched In the US they all deserved it. They were all serial killers. And that's not a racist thing to say 'cause you can't prove they weren't. So don't accuse me of saying racist things 'cause I'll ask you for evidence and get all butthurt too.

[Poopadoop]

No, it isn't. It's not hateful, it's not discriminatory, it's not a statement of superiority. It's speculation that might or might not be accurate. Like I say, if you think that comment is racism, you don't understand racism.

Yes, it is. You think you're not being racist because you don't come right out and admit it, but your words show that you'll go to great lengths to stick up for cops' racist behavior. You're also keen to show black people who overreact to being stopped because that further supports your view that the blame for their mistreatment must be on them, not the cops.

It's the old "This woman got raped because she was dressed slutty." approach to justice. Blame the victim.

[Poopadoop]

Also, not sure what culture thinks it's a good idea to mouth off at cops so they'll invade your personal space with a body search. You would have to be pretty fucking stupid to have a culture like that, wouldn't you.

[OngBonga]

Your theory seems to be that the cop randomly picks someone to stop, ignoring their colour, and then if that person happens to mouth off, they also get searched.

It's a possibility.

perhaps because of their "culture" (which is a chickenshit way of saying race).

You're really trying hard to make me racist for making that suggestion. It doesn't matter to you that it actually could be true, all that matters is it offends your sensitivities.

I would say the same if Liverpool has a higher than average area for stop and search, I would speculate if maybe the culture of the (white) dickheads who roam the streets was the reason. The difference between Liverpool and cities like London, Birmingham and Manchester is Liverpool has a low percentage of black people compared to other cities. But Liverpool is unique, most cities have a higher than average percentage of black people, and these black people are more likely to live in the rough areas where crime is higher. But don't let that get in the way of a good old witch hunt.

You know what? I speculate that when black people used to get lynched In the US they all deserved it.

I mean, let's just casually compare getting lynched in slave-era USA with getting pulled over in modern UK.

They were all serial killers. And that's not a racist thing to say 'cause you can't prove they weren't. So don't accuse me of saying racist things 'cause I'll ask you for evidence and get all butthurt too.

Just utter fucking nonsense.

Yes, it is. You think you're not being racist because you don't come right out and admit it, but your words show that you'll go to great lengths to stick up for cops' racist behavior.

All you're doing here is once again showing that your mind is closed, you have already decided that racism is the cause, you will not consider alternatives, and further, anyone who dares to suggest it might not be is "sticking up for racist cops". That isn't the position of a reasonable person, but it's hardly surprising because reason is not associated with modern leftists.

You're also keen to show black people who overreact to being stopped because that further supports your view that the blame for their mistreatment must be on them, not the cops.

Incorrect. I was posting those clips before our current conversation, and the reason I was posting them is to demonstrate how the media give a platform to those who cry racism, despite the charge of racism being extremely tenuous.

It's the old "This woman got raped because she was dressed slutty." approach to justice. Blame the victim.

Let's just causally compare rape with getting pulled over. For fuck's sake.

Also, not sure what culture thinks it's a good idea to mouth off at cops so they'll invade your personal space with a body search. You would have to be pretty fucking stupid to have a culture like that, wouldn't you.

Victim culture.