I just realized I'm not that good

Um... sounds like all winning players. Congratulations.

TADA.... you now understand the force young Skywalker.

Whatever your game, whatever your style, whatever your stakes, winning is about repetitive execution of your plan.

The short answer to your question is, no. IMHO. Now, what was the question? Getting technically better is overrated. I don't understand those people who say stuff like, "I play on Ultimate Bet because they have the best players and I want to get better so I play the best." I want to win money so I play the worst. If I could find a group of 2nd graders with $200 bankrolls I would play them.

The reason I say you now "get it", however, is that there's no such thing as that shangri-la, guru, see-all "greatness" at poker that most players aspire to have. There is only execution of a proven winning plan. If that plan is "sit down with 2nd graders and push AA once a night" then there it is. Most people never get good because they never get discipline and they never get "a plan" and stick with it. That's a fact.

Now that you have you think "I'm not that good". But in reality that's what makes you good.

Nice going! You'll be a better player now that you've realized that you're not a poker genius.

Sincerely Aok(pokergenius)rongly.......................

Sal - I lvoe these self revelation posts, helps me calm myself down.

Aok - You talk like pro.

I agree ... great thread.

I'm only starting out ... but the few times I have lost big in a single session (relative to the stakes of course) have been the times I either didnt have a plan or abandoned my plan.

Last night I did the dumbest thing ... played solid on an aggressive table for an hour, was up 80BB, then lost it all on the last two hands I played becuase I decided the opposition was so loose I pushed AJ to a re-raise, then played K9s trying to win it back. Abandoned plan = loss. Stick to plan = finish night up 80BB.

I'm going to book mark this thread and read it every time I abandon the plan ... hopefully I won't be back often

I'm worse. I find really horrible players and exploit the crap out of them before someone else does.

There is a whole universe of small edges that can be exploited for better profits. It's ok to Tagg until the cows come home. It's profitable. There is an upper plain of skill to achieve however. I'm obsesssed with poker, and the holy grail of what it means to be the best at it. I hope to someday achieve a high status. I'm one of those stupid people that cares more about improving than making money, because I love the game. I believe it is possible to find new sharp edges. I find them constantly. It takes a little courage to walk on them, but they're there. For example....

I was sitting at a $200NL cash table with Wildbob the other day, and found such an edge. I looked down at 56s on the button, and raised it 3xBB. The big blind reraised me, making it 6-8xBB to go. I knew this meant high pocket from this person. My hand was merely speculative, and I was reraised, but this is cash table, and I can play postflop regardless of my cards with position. I called to see a flop. The flop came out TAA with 2 clubs. Awww crap right? Wrong. The big blind represented as I expected, but only bet out about half pot. This person had JJ-KK. I was certain.

The problem here is, I now have to convince the opponent I have trip aces or fold. 200 NL players are smart enough to not believe trips when they have a powerful underpair. Do I have a reason to raise trip aces on this flop if I had them? Yes I do. There are two clubs out there, and the opponent bet half pot, which might make him think that I think he's drawing. I know he likely isn't. The opponent is also very tight, so less inclined to look me down with two aces staring at them OOP. The choice was made. It was proper to make it 3x his bet to go. He thought about it and folded of course, considering I had position on him for the next two betting rounds, and I won 20+ BB. I found a sharp edge and exploited it. It was correct to do so against this player. Would you have done the same thing?

Now I'm not saying look for things that aren't there. All I'm saying is don't be a pussy when opportunity falls in your lap. Poker is pragmatic. Always remember that.

Rondavu, do you normally multitable? If so, how do you get a lot of your reads?

Just curious.

I am so glad someone wrote this....I am a winning player but I do exactly like most...play a system and stick to it...venturing beyond the boundaries only when something is glaring. I lose money badly when I lose my focus and wander....just for the sake of wandering. My fam thinks I am a poker guru or something, and help them win online when I am around...but I just play tight for the most part. I guess when I thought of a good poker player...I just never imagined this. I think the hardest part is consistency.

Thats what us high stakes fish do too, i mean if i look at my play now i'm really just a calling station that wont fold middle pair. "tagg" poker (which is a silly thing to call it cause you shouldn't ever limit yourself to one style cause every situation is diferent) is all about getting your money in ahead, and folding while behind, and the great players just do both of those things more often than simply decent players. Moves, bluffing, and "lagg" poker are overated too.

Originally Posted by Fnord

I'm worse. I find really horrible players and exploit the crap out of them before someone else does.

I agree. Quit thinking you have to be Daniel Negreanu to be considered a good player. At any level, wether it's 1/2 or 100/200, you make money by beating people that are worse than you. If you were the best at the level you play then you should be playing higher. It's good that you aren't as good as you like to be. It's constant motivation to get better. Make the money however you can and continually strive to improve.

Some FTR high stakes fish (it might've been ilikeaces86) does not play lagg in ring. Yet he makes a killing.

Rondavu, good point. there's certainly more than one way to scale a fish. However, in the end you're doing what all good players do, have a system and execute it. The real (or actual) difference between a good player on a $25 or $200 NL table (or a $20 MTT) and a good player at the highest levels of poker is that difference in how complex and experienced the system is. A simple TAGG (or even nut hunting) system works at some levels. But for that kind of game you're working on and aspiring toward, you need a very complex, textured, "aware" game. Keep at it. It's a worthy goal for sure.

The reality of why other players stop on one plateau or another before they reach that highly textured and "aware" game is Laziness. It takes so much work and anguish and dedication and strain to move up in skill that most players say screw it. And there are, IMHO, 3 levels of poker players: fish, Winners, and Elites. I hope you become an Elite. It sounds like you're putting the work into it.

good luck

Most of the money you win poker comes from your opponents bad plays, not your great plays.

Originally Posted by wc3x_tester

Aok - You talk like pro.

There is nothing that will strip all the lace and frills and fancy "aura" off poker faster than quitting your job and relying on it for your bills, food, IRA, etc. When you do that poker gets stripped to the bone, there are NO pacifying excuses about bad beats, and to quote Rocky 3... "there is no tomorrow!"

Yea, I did it. Live... Right here on FTR. It was great fun and Very Liberating. I made my paycheck from poker every month without fail, but I had to work hard to do it. Then my wife wanted to quit her job so I went back to work and kept up the full time poker as well, to earn both our incomes, and we did That for a few months. That whole process took about 6 months - at the end of which I was exhuasted. I still haven't recovered, to be honest. I probably play poker less than you do now. 6-10 hours per week, where I used to play that every day 7 days a week for month on end.

Anyway, any "pro" insights I have are from that experience. However, I was never a professional in the way you probably think of it. My biggest months I earned 5-6k. On average I earned 3k or a little more.

Anyone can do it. You just a need a game that wins consistently and a total disregard for being a responsible adult. LOL. (I have 2 kids by the way. But I believe life is for Living. I won't deny myself the experiences that I seek. Hell, next year maybe I'll become a bull fighter. )

Love the post salsa...I consider that I fall into precisely the same category that you described - though I play lower limits...essentially nut camping, exploiting occassional edges, winning big or losing little (most of the time) with AA/KK and sets...and not generally fighting over piddly pots with mediocre holdings.

What fascinates me is watching the big guns at Pacific (on occasion) when they come down to the $10 tables...guys raising Q2o from EP, then potting the flop and turn with bottom pair and just being smooth-called - what's that? They hit trip deuces on the river - overbet the pot - top two pair AJ is still calling them and they lucked out!
I just don't comprehend the play, and damned if I don't call them the luckiest fish/LAG I've seen. Maybe I'm just watching them on a good day - raising every 4-5th hand or so no matter position, betting no matter the board until the end when they either have something to take advantage of, or don't - and generally taking proper advantage of scare cards etc.

Watching these guys makes me feel like I have no balls for the game long-term...I'm happy making my reasonable BR building earnings at my game...but I certainly would like to be able to really rake it in like these guys do when they get lucky, which sure as hell seems like a lot!

I don't exactly know how to get there either...would love to be able to expand on the opportunistic pot stealing with reads, an example of which Rondavu provided. Just gotta suck it up, get some nads, and pay attention I think
That, and I still have lots of learning to do in this game - which is of course a lot of the fun and challenge for me at this point!

Best of luck!

Originally Posted by Krieg1984

Rondavu, do you normally multitable? If so, how do you get a lot of your reads?

Just curious.

I multitable about half the time. My reads are less effective on multiple tables of course. I still make them however, and exploit them. When I play one table, I make very complex reads on everyone. I do this because I enjoy doing it. I think a lot of people don't because they're lazy and/or it seems labor intensive to them. To me it's a treat to make deep reads, because it's very satisfying when you exploit them just right.

There's a moment that occurs after sitting with the same people for 500 hands that can only be described as zenish. If you've been painstakingly taking reads hand in and hand out their hands open up to you. Their range, their weakness, their tendancies, their emotion. It all talks to you. It's a truly amazing thing to me. Like a drug. It's at this moment that I realize it's impossible for these people to beat me, unless they're keeping up with what I'm maintaining, which I doubt most are.

Originally Posted by midas06

Some FTR high stakes fish (it might've been ilikeaces86) does not play lagg in ring. Yet he makes a killing.

Dude 80% of us high stakes fish play "tagg".

Originally Posted by DaHorror

Love the post salsa...I consider that I fall into precisely the same category that you described - though I play lower limits...essentially nut camping, exploiting occassional edges, winning big or losing little (most of the time) with AA/KK and sets...and not generally fighting over piddly pots with mediocre holdings.

What fascinates me is watching the big guns at Pacific (on occasion) when they come down to the $10 tables...guys raising Q2o from EP, then potting the flop and turn with bottom pair and just being smooth-called - what's that? They hit trip deuces on the river - overbet the pot - top two pair AJ is still calling them and they lucked out!
I just don't comprehend the play, and damned if I don't call them the luckiest fish/LAG I've seen. Maybe I'm just watching them on a good day - raising every 4-5th hand or so no matter position, betting no matter the board until the end when they either have something to take advantage of, or don't - and generally taking proper advantage of scare cards etc.

Watching these guys makes me feel like I have no balls for the game long-term...I'm happy making my reasonable BR building earnings at my game...but I certainly would like to be able to really rake it in like these guys do when they get lucky, which sure as hell seems like a lot!

Best of luck!

you just don't see the trillions of fish that come in, lose, and leave the table. You see and remember the fish sitting on a 5x buyin having sucked out majorly and then gotten paid off with his AA.

you just don't see the trillions of fish that come in, lose, and leave the table. You see and remember the fish sitting on a 5x buyin having sucked out majorly and then gotten paid off with his AA.

...and other fishes see that too. Billy87, CallAllBets, A6offsuit etc. all of them are on waiting list ready to load their 16th buyin and make some flushes. Because SootedDanny17 was SEEN with 5x buyin.

Originally Posted by Vrax

you just don't see the trillions of fish that come in, lose, and leave the table. You see and remember the fish sitting on a 5x buyin having sucked out majorly and then gotten paid off with his AA.

...and other fishes see that too. Billy87, CallAllBets, A6offsuit etc. all of them are on waiting list ready to load their 16th buyin and make some flushes. Because SootedDanny17 was SEEN with 5x buyin.

LOL

Originally Posted by Bmxicle

Originally Posted by midas06

Some FTR high stakes fish (it might've been ilikeaces86) does not play lagg in ring. Yet he makes a killing.

Dude 80% of us high stakes fish play "tagg".

80% = 4/5 ?

Originally Posted by MannerBoy

Originally Posted by Bmxicle

Originally Posted by midas06

Some FTR high stakes fish (it might've been ilikeaces86) does not play lagg in ring. Yet he makes a killing.

Dude 80% of us high stakes fish play "tagg".

80% = 4/5 ?

Nah,

80% = 8/10

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Originally Posted by MannerBoy

Originally Posted by Bmxicle

Originally Posted by midas06

Some FTR high stakes fish (it might've been ilikeaces86) does not play lagg in ring. Yet he makes a killing.

Dude 80% of us high stakes fish play "tagg".

80% = 4/5 ?

Nah,

80% = 8/10

Unless maths is rigged

come on
you dont need to play fancy poker because too many players make mistakes anyway.
Surely mking the winrate slightly higher is tha abiltiy to always get a weaker hand to call, no matter whether thats 500bucks or 50cents. If you get that extra bet/2bets whatever youre making the most of your hands.

I think if you play TAGG all the time, you should take some time to play LAGG or even counterplay. I have played both and by doing so, I can find better ways to exploit both styles because I know what type of play made me think "oh shoot, am I beat?". I still suck, but I have gotten better by doing so. When playing TAGG, I hate raising w/ AQ and then having my cbet on a missed flop reraised or called then reraised on the turn. So, when I see the tight guy doing this, I reraise him when I know he is weak. When playing LAGG, I play more drawing hands and hate when people crush my odds with pot sized bets over and over. So, I make LAGGS pay dearly to draw against me. I don't just take away their odds, I destroy them. Might not be the best examples, but you see where I'm going.

TAGG and LAGG are terms that are too vague. What you want to be is hard to read. I think you guys that claim to be TAGG, are probably somewhere in between TAGG and LAGG but just know how to get out of bad situations and exploit good ones. You have developed reading people and boards and patterns consciously and subconsciously. You just don't realize all the skills you have obtained over time. Experience is key to becoming a winnning player.

Edit: This post wanders a little with no real direction. I was being goaded off the computer at the time. I'll leave it here anyway because it touches upon the subtopic of TAGG/LAGG and getting better. The original post is definitely good for the beginner forum, but some other stuff is more for down the road. When I first started a year ago, I was under the impression that TAGG was for rookies and the really good players on here all played some crazy game where they played any two and just won off of reads. This is false. I didn't realize that and I tried to get their too quickly with no plan (or skills) with poor results. Then I started over using AOK's guidelines and it worked great (still does). I have been profitable ever since. Once I established that as my baseline, I was able to work off it and expand my game. Like I mentioned before, I still suck and make some horrendous plays. But over time, I rarely make the same mistake twice. So I suck less each time I make a bad decision.

"Stick to your plan" and "Make good decisions and let your opponents make the bad ones" are the two main points that I see. Post these thoughts above your computer so when you are posed with a decision of chasing a hand against odds, you will know what to do. Don't try to get anywher too fast. Work your way up.

I absolutely love this thread.

great thread, one of the better ones I've read lately

This is by far one of the best threads I've read here on FTR. Once I read Salsa4ever's post, it gave me a confirmation that I was on the right track. His repetitive system that he created to be a winning player at his stakes is the same I'm doing for mine. Also Aokrangly's and Rondavu's takes were just as great. When you develop the basics of becoming a profitable poker player for a long time, it will be easier for you to create your own style of play and take it to the next level (such as reads, stealing pots, making great calls, great folds, etc.). Us humans are all animals of habits (bad or good) and the more we do something in a repetitive stage that is positive, the easier for us to become adapted to it.

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

I'm basically a just a textbook multitabling TaGG who can identify the odd opportunity to pull some LaGG moves (position isolate and take down, steal the odd orphan pot, continuation bet raise-bluff, river bluffs etc.) manages to fold to a set/2pair/flush a little more frequently than my opponents, calls raises with a tighter range, and a bit more emotionally stable.

This is what I'm trying to become too.

So what i'm getting is at that even at 200NL, I'm not winning 'cos I'm so damn good. I win because I do simple things correctly over and over again, with the occasional dash of brilliance and the ability to fold a second best more frequently than others. I hardly ever make a read. As i mentioned i don't often bluff. I don't really have the ability to sense weakness. I still do call down in the wrong spot and give up on pots i should try for. In other words, I'm winning 'cos I'm not that bad.

Well, that is essentially the trick to getting consistent results in everything. I pray I can become "not that bad" as you

And getting most of your money out of the hands where the odds are in your favor and not when the odds are against you.. makes perfect sense right?

How do you improve? try to widen up our game? Is it worth it to take a dip in profit-making and play 1 table to try to 'play better'? or learn to play 6-max. Or is it better to just keep being less bad (better discipline, emotional stability, fold trash, fold those second best hands more frequently... etc.)?

If I were to make good money over the long run, I wouldn't change a thing. But that's just me.

Very nice post btw.. even though you're being very modest, you kinda describe how to beat this game
(it's rolling out of my printer now for future reference)

..oh yeah and one last thing.. the main thing to improve on is probably people reading skills.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Sincerely Aok(pokergenius)rongly.......................

May the force be with u !

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Getting technically better is overrated. I don't understand those people who say stuff like, "I play on Ultimate Bet because they have the best players and I want to get better so I play the best." I want to win money so I play the worst. If I could find a group of 2nd graders with $200 bankrolls I would play them.

.......................

You made my day!

i feel exactly the same way about my game, but i'm happy with it. my plan is to just continue moving up the stakes and continue winning more money.

eventually i'll get to a level where i'm not good enough to win and i'll take a shot at the level and will have to move down again, play more hands and work on my game. once i have the roll i'll take another shot. eventually i believe i will be able to master that level, beat it and move up to the next level.

i'm currently at $400NL with a BR for $600NL. i took a shot at $600NL but have moved back down. i'll be up again within a week. if i fail again i'll have to move down and try again. i will try to improve my game and fix any leaks i think i might have and reevaluate my game for the style of play at $600NL.

good luck and good short post.

QFT

Originally Posted by jobupoker

great thread, one of the better ones I've read lately

Another post reminded me of this thread today. In answering it, I think I also answered my own thread. So here's today's salsa4ever, responding to the the salsa4ever of 18 months ago.


Keep your focus and your discipline. For now, don't worry about your "unskillful play". Keep winning, keep building. You ARE learning. By playing "unskilfully" you're learning some of the most important skills that will carry across all the games - table selection, discipline, not chasing shit hands, emotional control, bankroll management. These same skills will help you whether you play NLH, PLO8, Stud8, HORSE or Razz. Whereas learning to make "moves", is not only counterproductive when you haven't mastered those skills I talked about beore, and will not transfer across games.


Nowadays I just pwn my chosen game (PLO and PLO8). But it's a process. You can't get to zenlike ownage right away you gotta build it slowly. I couldn't be "good" like I am today without all those nights spent being "less bad".

"zenlike ownage", nice =)

I look for the sucker and take his stake and then find the next sucker and stake them and I try to never be the sucker I fold often when I know i'm crushed I learned this from playing omaha if theres a hand to fear your opp probably has that hand and I'll fold like hell if I think my opp is capable of playing that lousey to were he catches his backdoor draw on my top set I don't let beat get to me becuase I know that the sucker will not catch his one outer next time and explote the hell out of him.

Sticky

no stickies, should be in the digest

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

I couldn't be "good" like I am today without all those nights spent being "less bad".

Poetry

you are fine just take your time and learn how to read your opponents more. its difficult online but attempt to read betting techniques and try to develop patterns with your opponents

amazing topic :yes:

I think you analyzed your game perfectly. Enjoyed your post

Getting better takes a very long time, and it takes dedication. Most importantly, you need to review your play; or if you are still a beginner (it doesn't sound like you are), you should frequently review the hand histories of good poker players to see what goes through their heads.

If you're playing cash, which you are, bluffing shouldn't occur all that often. But if you never bluff, you are literally giving money away.