Hand range practice at 2NL

[Tasha]

Here's another attempt at some hand ranging. I am sure there are other comments that can be made about how the hand was played and they are welcome but what I am really focusing on at the moment is the hand ranging.

I have 118 hands against him.
Here are the stats:
31/1.6/1.6


Pacific Poker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (MP): $2.00
MP+1: $1.90
LP: $2.06
CO: $2.00
BTN: $2.54
SB: $0.53
BB: $2.36
UTG: $2.00
UTG+1: $0.83

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02, UTG+1 posts DB $0.03, Hero posts DB $0.03, CO posts DB $0.03

Pre Flop: ($0.12) Hero has Q J

UTG raises to $0.10, fold, Hero calls $0.08, fold, LP calls $0.10, fold, fold, fold, fold

I call the bet because QJ is in my calling range for preflop in a late position.
Villain calls 29% of preflop hands.
So that makes his preflop range 29% of the 31% of his Vpip range?
That is about a third or 10% however, because he is in a late position and there has been money in the pot I will widen that a bit to allow for set mining and I get this:

22+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo

Flop: ($0.40, 3 players) 8 Q J
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.28, LP calls $0.28, fold

That's nice. I make a standard c-bet for me of 2/3 pot. He calls.

According to his stats he folds 44% of the time to a flop bet. So I can leave him with a little over half of the top of his range and that should be this if I include flush and straight draws. I also take out QJs because I can see blockers for this combo in my cards and the board. So I have this:

QTs, 88, KK+, AT, AQ, KT, AJo+, JJ, A9c+, KTc+, QTc+,

The question here is would he have raised if he had trips? What should I be looking at to know this?

Turn: ($0.96, 2 players) 8
Hero bets $0.47, LP calls $0.47

I didn't get anything out of that so I make a half pot bet because I think I probably have a stronger hand at the time.

Going over things afterward I can say he didn't get a flush or straight out of that and he calls even though he doesn't have pot odds to call so now his range is this:

QTs, 88, KK+, AQ, AJ, JJ

I now doubt even more that he has trips because he really should be raising me, so I am going to make it:

QTs, KK+, AQ, AJ

River: ($1.90, 2 players) A
Hero bets $0.57, LP calls $0.57

I don't like the look of that. It could give him trip Aces, it hits his AQ, and AJ.

So I make a small bet to at least get something in the pot because I still have a strong hand. I don't want to check and miss on value but also want to see what he does. If he raises then I fold?

In retrospect I can try and look at the combos that we have here and it comes to this:

2+9+8+6 = 24 combos.

I beat 2 + 6 = 8 combos so I am behind?

[Keith]

why are we posting double blinds in mid position? can't you sit out until you are the big blind?

and why are we calling an UTG open with QJ. you're in mid position so i'm not sure about what you mean with it being in your calling range in late position. What range have you got UTG on and what are his stats.

[daven]

I have 118 hands against him.
Here are the stats:
31/1.6/1.6


Pacific Poker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (MP): $2.00
MP+1: $1.90
LP: $2.06
CO: $2.00
BTN: $2.54
SB: $0.53
BB: $2.36
UTG: $2.00
UTG+1: $0.83

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02, UTG+1 posts DB $0.03, Hero posts DB $0.03 This is obviously bad, especially from mp, wtf?!, CO posts DB $0.03

Pre Flop: ($0.12) Hero has Q J

UTG raises to $0.10, fold, Hero calls $0.08, fold, LP calls $0.10, fold, fold, fold, fold

I call the bet because QJ is in my calling range for preflop in a late position. It shouldn't be, especially offsuited and vs an ep open
Villain calls 29% of preflop hands.
So that makes his preflop range 29% of the 31% of his Vpip range? nope, it means his range when he calls here is about 30% of hands, not 10%
That is about a third or 10% however, because he is in a late position and there has been money in the pot I will widen that a bit to allow for set mining and I get this:

22+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo probably worth stoving to see how close this gets to 30%, but definitely add many unsuited aces, all Axs, all broadway combos, and most suited connectors and gappers. Maybe even a few non-suited connectors.

Flop: ($0.40, 3 players) 8 Q J
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.28, LP calls $0.28, fold

That's nice. I make a standard c-bet for me of 2/3 pot. this isn't a c-bet cos you weren't the preflop raiser, also, bet closer to pot on such a connected board He calls.

According to his stats he folds 44% of the time to a flop bet. so, take the correct preflop range, then he's calling any flush draw, and pair+gutshot, any made hand - and he's a station so bet big. So I can leave him with a little over half of the top of his range and that should be this if I include flush and straight draws. I also take out QJs because I can see blockers for this combo in my cards and the board. So I have this:

QTs, 88, KK+, AT, AQ, KT, AJo+, JJ, A9c+, KTc+, QTc+,

The question here is would he have raised if he had trips? What should I be looking at to know this? he has a pfr of 1% and that was probably a misclick. He doesn't know how to bet or raise without the absolute nuts, and will slowplay these sometimes as well. Include all made hands in his calling range.

Turn: ($0.96, 2 players) 8
Hero bets $0.47, LP calls $0.47

I didn't get anything out of that so I make a half pot bet because I think I probably have a stronger hand at the time. bad logic, if you are confident he is ahead then you shouldn't be putting more money in. But you're still ahead most of the time and he isn't folding his draws. If you bet then at least charge his draws, especially if you're not good enough to fold 2pr on a bad turn - close to pot is good.

Going over things afterward I can say he didn't get a flush or straight out of that and he calls even though he doesn't have pot odds to call so now his range is this:

QTs, 88, KK+, AQ, AJ, JJ

I now doubt even more that he has trips because he really should be raising me, if he has JJ then raising this turn would be stupid so I am going to make it:

QTs, KK+, AQ, AJ seems like quite an arbitrary range downsizing

River: ($1.90, 2 players) A
Hero bets $0.57, LP calls $0.57

I don't like the look of that. It could give him trip Aces, it hits his AQ, and AJ. more importantly, any Ax hand he has now beats you, including A9 cos AA88x beats QQJJx... flushes got there. etc

So I make a small bet to at least get something in the pot because I still have a strong hand. I don't want to check and miss on value but also want to see what he does. If he raises then I fold? look at your stack behind and pot size etc then check-fold to anything less than like 10c. What do you beat that a 1% pfr is betting?

comments in bold italics above

[daviddem]

- the preflop range is reasonable, but you can probably assume that he would reraise KK+, so probably do not include KK+. He may have more suited aces as well and maybe a few more aces (this kind of guys have a hard time letting go of their aces).
- on the flop you can't really use that 44% because mostly this is in pots where he limped and missed. His range is tighter in raised pots so if you really want to use a stat you should look at something like "fold to a bet on a flop that hits his range in a pot that was raised preflop where he called the preflop bet". Besides, you need lots of hands on a villain for postflop stats to become meaningful, so don't try to use them here apart maybe for his AF to get a measure of his aggressiveness. That should hopefully tell you whether he would raise a top pair or set type of hand. So the reasoning would go something like: his AF is 1.6, not super high but also not completely passive. In a three way pot on such a coordinated board, against two opps, he should raise his sets and TPTK hands, so you can exclude 88, QQ, JJ and AQ from his range. Keep all the flush draws, open ended straight draws and you need some read to decide whether he calls with his second/third pair type of hands and gutshots with overs like AK.

Also when you type a range in the forum, type it first in Pokerstove. This will help you get them into the standard format.

- let's say the range you put him on on the flop is correct. Why are you removing some straight draws and flush draws from his range after he calls the turn?

For the hand:
- bet more on the flop: on this kind of board against two opps, you should make a pot sized bet.
- his range on the turn is mostly draws, almost always hands you beat and that you cna get value from. Bet at least 3/4 pot, if not full pot.
- I didn't do the calculations, but this Ac on the river is VERY bad for your equity against his turn calling range. Probably makes it <50%, so betting is doubtful. Maybe just a small blocking bet to try and see a cheap showdown, but probably check/fold to any kind of serious bet.

edit: oh yes and I forgot preflop: exactly what Keith said above: don't post, don't call the raise.

[kmind]

You seem to have a serious leak before preflop and preflop. WHY is QJo in your calling range preflop here?

[philly and the phanatics]

daven knocked this thread out already

[celtic123]

Hi Tasha.

Have you done a Poker tracker filter of how youre doing with QJo and QJs ?
take a look.

You might start to think more about when and how you play them.

[Sasquach991]

Tasha,
I think a better question is

In general, what hands are you opening in what positions and why?

UTG-77+, AK ?
UTG+1, ????
...
...
...

[HarleyGuy13]

Tasha Daven really went through this for the most part. Also I think Sasquach really hit on an important point. Get a discussion going on your opening hands from each position. That is so very important. Also NEVER post dead unless maybe from CO it's just a waste of money.

When you do work on ranges I think you are missing an important ingredient. Knowing villains range is good but useless if you don't know what that means to your hand. Utilize pokerstove as you work through these. As you do it more and more often you'll will be learning what these ranges mean to particular hands which is the purpose of putting them on ranges.

I also really want to commend you for working hard. You like the rest of us have a very long way to go but you seem to really be working hard at it. Keep it up!

[daven]

@op, posting this sort of hand + reasoning, and then spending time going through the responses in detail and thinking about their accuracy or otherwise is a great way to get better at poker. Nice post.

Anyway, i wanted to check i was about right with my 30% range guess above while i was at it i decided to go through the range process i would apply to this hand, hope this is of some value.

pre-flop, i'm going to give MP just over 30%, here is a likely range that is 33% (go to stove and check if you want )
22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,54s ,43s,32s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo,T9o,98o

ok, on the flop villain is folding some of this and calling some. I don't discount anything based on the absence of a raise as you cannot make the call that an awful player is smart enough to know that flatting a set here is bad! I think that villain's calling range is relatively constant whether you bet 3/4 pot or pot, so bet pot cos you're ahead of villain's continuing range of approximately:
88+,A8s+,Ac7c,Ac6c,Ac5c,Ac4c,Ac3c,Ac2c,KTs+,QTs+,J 9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,7c6c,6c5c,5c4c,4c3c, 3c2c,A8o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo,T9o,98o

Board: Qc 8c Jd
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0:

30.835% 29.42% 01.42% 61448 2962.50 { 88+, A8s+, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac5c, Ac4c, Ac3c, Ac2c, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 7c6c, 6c5c, 5c4c, 4c3c, 3c2c, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o }

Hand 1: 69.165% 67.75% 01.42% 141517 2962.50 { QsJh }


now we get to the turn, the 8s doesn't change too much, although we are now behind against the 8x hands in villain's range. 8s doesn't change Villain's calling range much with respect to draws, i'm gonna expect turn folds from A9o, ATo, and AKo - that's about it. Bet pot and charge the draws, even though it's starting to get slightly thinner.

Board: Qc 8c Jd 8s
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.077% 39.51% 01.57% 2816 112.00 { 88+, A8s+, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac5c, Ac4c, Ac3c, Ac2c, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 7c6c, 6c5c, 5c4c, 4c3c, 3c2c, AQo-AJo, A8o, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o }
Hand 1: 58.923% 57.35% 01.57% 4088 112.00 { QsJh }


so, on the river you can now check to see how often you're ahead. 33% vs villain's entire range, and even less vs villain's calling range. Don't put any money in on this river.

Board: Qc 8c Jd 8s Ac
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.667% 65.28% 01.39% 94 2.00 { 88+, A8s+, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac5c, Ac4c, Ac3c, Ac2c, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 7c6c, 6c5c, 5c4c, 4c3c, 3c2c, AQo-AJo, A8o, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o }
Hand 1: 33.333% 31.94% 01.39% 46 2.00 { QsJh }

[bjsaust]

Theres a concept in tourney poker which you rarely hear mentioned in ring poker, even though it applies equally, and thats the gap concept. Theres a gap between the range of hands you'll open raise with, and the hands that you'll call a raise with. You need to think about UTGs open range, and consider just how badly a hand like QJo does against that range.

[rpm]

preflop:
with an UTG opener, a mid-position caller, and some other dead money in the pot, i think your opponents range is likely quite wide here (indicated by 30% VPIPP, so i'll say

22-QQ,A2s+,A8o+,K8s+,KTo+,Q8s+,QTo+,J8s+,J9o+,suited connectors and one-gappers 43s-T9s and 53s-T8s. i stoved that range and it came to 27%. he probably has more hands here, and i imagine they'd be coming from the suited side of the hand visualiser (more suited K's, and maybe some suited two-gappers) but whatever.

on the flop i imagine he calls your bet with:
88-QQ,AT+,KT+,Q8s-Q9s,QT+,J8s,J9+,T9s,T8s,

as well as all the flush unblocked flush draw combinations which probably amount to something like 30 combinations (as an absolute guess off the top of my head).

on the turn i doubt the calling range changes much at all. all 8's now have trips, all Q's still have top pair, 99-TT still have a pair/gutter. Jx may find a fold but a lot of these combinations have a pair/gutshot or two pair, and your opponent seems to be pretty passive and inclined to calling so may not even fold middle pair. obviously all flush draws aren't folding and AK probably check/calls another becuase it has two overcards and a gutterball and it's AK.

you may like to discount some nut hands against some opponents at this point because they would raise (J8,Q8,JJ,QQ etc) but i would leave them in due to our opponents tendencies to play so passively.

so the river is a pretty shitty card for you because:
- all flush draws got there.
- KT got there
- AQ,AJ,AK all now have you beat, and are probably in your opponents range
- any 8 had you beat anyway
- you rarely get any value when called if you bet. a lot of villain's range improved wit that ace, jacks with only one pair are less likely to call a bet because there's now two overs. and you're only paying more rake when you value bet and are called by Qx, which you were ahead of on the turn.

for that reason, i don't like betting the river too much. i imagine his calling range is something like
88,JJ,QQ,AT+,KT+,Q8s-Q9s,QT+,T9s,T8s

so we can see that villain's claling range is now made up mostly of hands that beat us, or hands that we chop with

i initially typed out a far more detailed street-by-street response under the mistaken belief that villain was UTG. so i obv deleted it all, tilted, then typed this. so i may have left some hands out/skimmed some important details which influence his range.

edit: i think i missed out all the 8xs suited connector combos in the flop range, which means they were subsequently not in the turn or rivers range, but they only serve to decrease the EV of our river bet anyway.

[Tasha]

Many thanks to all of you for the time and effort you have put into your responses. I apologize for the delay in responding too.
I am going to have to go over it all in detail a few times to really get the most out of it and I don't have time right now but I will try to get to it by tomorrow before it all fades away. I've been trying to review it now but I am not doing it justice so I'll have another go later.

In the meantime here are some of the smaller points:

Without embarrassing myself beyond all recall, I am assuming the Double Blind bets are the blind bets that I have to place to sit down at the table. I haven't been worrying about these at all because I don't multitable and once I sit down I tend to stay there. I take it this is bad and I should sit out until I am in the BB position and then post blinds.
I think I got a bit confused there on my position at the table, but I was in a mid-position, not a late position. However, I would have played the QJ there anyway so it is no excuse. I can safely say that in light of your opinions QJo is out of my opening range now.

[Keith]

to take the double blinds example tothe extreme . if you were UTG would you pay 3c to see 1 hand and then pay the big blind the ext hand . or would you save your 3sb and wait one hand.

[daviddem]

Not sure if you have the option at Pacific Poker, but in decent Poker clients there is often an option that says "wait for big blind by default" or the likes. Tick this on.

One funny thing I noticed in my favorite live Poker room here in Manila is that the dealers always assume that you will post by default whatever your position. So if you sit at the table and don't tell them specifically that you don't want to be dealt in until the big blind reaches you, you're screwed, you have to post!

[daven]

I should sit out until I am in the BB position and then post blinds.

yes

I think I got a bit confused there on my position at the table, but I was in a mid-position, not a late position. However, I would have played the QJ there anyway so it is no excuse. I can safely say that in light of your opinions QJo is out of my opening range now.

ok, i think i see where one of your problems lies.
Opening range = the range of hands that you will raise with in an unopened pot (i.e. all players fold to you and you will be the first player to voluntarily enter the pot). QJ is a fine hand to open from LP.
Calling range = the range of hand that you call a raise with. This is necessarily far narrower than your opening range. In LP and facing an EP raise you could profitably limit this to 22-QQ in the games you play, folding everything else. QJo is an awful hand to call a proper raise with in the games you play.

[PokerWang]

That's some really useful advice

[Tasha]

I am going to try and do a more detailed review of the responses here. I will take each stage of the hand in order rather than respond to individual responses so that way we can compare points of view.
I haven't figured out how to make the multi-quotes work so I apologize for the format:

Preflop:

Daven:

Villain calls 29% of preflop hands.
So that makes his preflop range 29% of the 31% of his Vpip range? nope, it means his range when he calls here is about 30% of hands,

I'm going to go back and check this. The stat I was using was in PT3 and I think it said the it was calls to preflop raises out of hands played. I'll check, and I know there are a lot of us who get this wrong, but let's stick with your version 'cos I'm sure you know what you are talking about.

Keith_MM:

and why are we calling an UTG open with QJ. you're in mid position so i'm not sure about what you mean with it being in your calling range in late position. What range have you got UTG on and what are his stats.

Daven:

Opening range = the range of hands that you will raise with in an unopened pot (i.e. all players fold to you and you will be the first player to voluntarily enter the pot). QJ is a fine hand to open from LP.
Calling range = the range of hand that you call a raise with. This is necessarily far narrower than your opening range. In LP and facing an EP raise you could profitably limit this to 22-QQ in the games you play, folding everything else. QJo is an awful hand to call a proper raise with in the games you play.

bjsaust:

Theres a concept in tourney poker which you rarely hear mentioned in ring poker, even though it applies equally, and thats the gap concept. Theres a gap between the range of hands you'll open raise with, and the hands that you'll call a raise with. You need to think about UTGs open range, and consider just how badly a hand like QJo does against that range.

Against a 33% range I only have 46% with QJo so that puts into numbers what you have all be saying. I shouldn't have played it.

rpm:

22-QQ,A2s+,A8o+,K8s+,KTo+,Q8s+,QTo+,J8s+,J9o+,suited connectors and one-gappers 43s-T9s and 53s-T8s. i stoved that range and it came to 27%. he probably has more hands here, and i imagine they'd be coming from the suited side of the hand visualiser (more suited K's, and maybe some suited two-gappers) but whatever.

Daven:

pre-flop, i'm going to give MP just over 30%, here is a likely range that is 33% (go to stove and check if you want )
22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,54s ,43s,32s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo,T9o,98o

These ranges are similar except perhaps at the very top end. What would he raise with? KK+? QQ+ Or is it as Daven says because he never raises preflop so we can't know what he might have?

Also, both of you have him calling with the same QJo that I shouldn't have played. Is this just because of the increased strength of his position or also the fact that two players before him put money in and so he has much better pot odds and implied odds if he hits two pair?

Flop:

rpm:

on the flop i imagine he calls your bet with:
88-QQ,AT+,KT+,Q8s-Q9s,QT+,J8s,J9+,T9s,T8s,

By 'suited' here I assume you mean clubs?

Daven:

I think that villain's calling range is relatively constant whether you bet 3/4 pot or pot, so bet pot cos you're ahead of villain's continuing range of approximately:
88+,A8s+,Ac7c,Ac6c,Ac5c,Ac4c,Ac3c,Ac2c,KTs+,QTs+,J 9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,7c6c,6c5c,5c4c,4c3c, 3c2c,A8o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo,T9o,98o

Should I have also made a pot-sized bet because I had a strong hand and trying to play it a little slower as I did was just going to get me into trouble?


Turn:
rpm:

on the turn i doubt the calling range changes much at all...your opponent seems to be pretty passive and inclined to calling so may not even fold middle pair. obviously all flush draws aren't folding and AK probably check/calls another becuase it has two overcards and a gutterball and it's AK.

you may like to discount some nut hands against some opponents at this point because they would raise (J8,Q8,JJ,QQ etc) but i would leave them in due to our opponents tendencies to play so passively.

Daven:

now we get to the turn, the 8s doesn't change too much, although we are now behind against the 8x hands in villain's range. 8s doesn't change Villain's calling range much with respect to draws, i'm gonna expect turn folds from A9o, ATo, and AKo - that's about it. Bet pot and charge the draws, even though it's starting to get slightly thinner.

I can see why I would expect him to raise with a nut hand but I'm not so clear about the draws. He is playing passively, would he really continue to try and get his flush or straight?

River:

rpm:
i imagine his calling range is something like 88,JJ,QQ,AT+,KT+,Q8s-Q9s,QT+,T9s,T8s....for that reason, i don't like betting the river too much....
so we can see that villain's claling range is now made up mostly of hands that beat us, or hands that we chop with

Daven:

so, on the river you can now check to see how often you're ahead. 33% vs villain's entire range, and even less vs villain's calling range. Don't put any money in on this river.

So check/fold here?

Lastly, Harely Guy, thanks for the tip on reviewing position. Until now I have been flapping about going through hands without any real direction but now I will do it by position, starting with the button and working back.

[rpm]

in response to:
"These ranges are similar except perhaps at the very top end. What would he raise with? KK+? QQ+ Or is it as Daven says because he never raises preflop so we can't know what he might have?"

definitely a lot of villain's do 3bet KK+ at some frequency. and there's every chance this guy's one of them. i removed KK+ from my range because i assumed he would 3bet them at a higher frequency than he smooth calls, just based on my experience of randoms at microstakes. i could have removed half the combos of each if i wanted to be picky, but i had already typed out a response that i fucked up, and got lazy.


"Also, both of you have him calling with the same QJo that I shouldn't have played. Is this just because of the increased strength of his position or also the fact that two players before him put money in and so he has much better pot odds and implied odds if he hits two pair?"

the factors you mentioned (better pot odds etc etc), as well as his positional advantage make his call with QJo same hand better than yours. in all honesty though, i think that hand is in his range because he sucks at holdem and plays far too many hands preflop.

"By 'suited' here I assume you mean clubs?"

no, i meant suited. you may have noticed that preflop i may have typed something like "QTo+,Q8s+", whereas on the flop, i would have just said "Q8s-Q9s,QT+" to indicate the same range. doing that is just a personal preference thing that seems to make it easier for me to count card combinations in my head. all of the suited hands i mentioned there have at least middle pair, or bottom pair with a straightdraw of some kind. and i think they would be in his continuing range. i said after the bit you quoted that he also has all of the flush draw combinations from his preflop range, that our hand and the flop cards do not block, in his calling range. sorry if that was unclear. the text i ended up posting was pretty hurried after typing out an initial response i fucked up.

"I can see why I would expect him to raise with a nut hand but I'm not so clear about the draws. He is playing passively, would he really continue to try and get his flush or straight?"

the word "passive" in poker, i think, refers to people who are very rarely aggressive. preferring actions such as "check" and "call" to "bet" and "raise". this person's preflop stats show that they are quite passive (they see a flop with 30% of hands but only raise something ludicrous like 1%). most people who play passive (again i might be wrong) are typically also calling stations. they call way too much. for this reason i cant see this particular opponent folding any flush draw, OESD, or even pair/gutterball hand to your bet on the turn. particularly when you offer him pot odds of 3:1

"So check/fold here?"

definitely check. and then decide whether to call based on the pot odds your opponent gives you, and your equity against the range you think he lays those odds with. basically, you need >50% equity against an opponents CALLING (strong emphasis that it's the range they call your bet with, not the range you bet into) range in order for that bet to have a higher expected value than checking. i think daven said that you have something like 35% against your opponents range on the river before you even take an action. asking him to put money into the pot (by betting) is only going to make that range stronger. for more on that topic, see caddie's recent-ish thread "value betting on the river"

gl. ps, i don't know how to multi-quote either. hopefully you can tell where i'm quoting and responding to quotes etc etc

[OngBonga]

I pretty much just open fold QJo up to CO, it's a piece of shit hand to be playing oop, especially to a raise. I can open with it, or perhaps limp behind if I'm at a passive table, but I'm never calling a raise with it on a full table from MP. Even suited it's crap to a raise, it's just so easily dominated.

As for posting blinds when taking a seat, I tend to wait for the CO, but not always. I do sometimes post in MP if I'm feeling impatient, but only at 2nl. I'm actually way up on hands where I post in MP, but only because on the rare occasion I flop big, there's usually some idiot who forgot I'm blind and gets aggro with the new guy who happens to have flopped a boat with 83. Then calls me a fish in the chat bar. That was a happy day.

But even if you're only playing one table, it can be very helpful to just watch an orbit before getting dealt in, get an idea of who the limpers are, who the stations are etc.

As for the hand you've posted, I think it's pretty much been torn to pieces. The pre call is terrible, the flop bet is a little bit weak considering there are straight draws and flush draws out, the turn significantly weakens our hand, and the river kills it stone dead. I think there's only KQ he can have that we beat.

Personally, if I got as far as the turn (I wouldn't be in the hand in reality), I'd check for sure. If he's flushing, he's checking behind for certain, the board just paired, our check could easily be a made boat letting him see a free river. After the river I might fire out a small blocker bet if we both checked the turn, but only to stop him repping the flush with a larger bet. Only a fish would raise a flush on this board, and obviously we fold anyway, showing why it was dumb for him to raise (we fold worse, raise better). If he bets the turn I think I just fold, 2pr is not a strong hand when the board has paired, although at least it paired below our second pair, which at least keeps us ahead of KQ, but I can only imagine calling a turn bet is just praying he has KQ, like I say I don't think a flush draw can bet this since it's likely a boat will check over.

But really, please just fold this pre, I like you, I don't want you to go broke!

[Keith]

Preflop:

Daven:

Quote:
Villain calls 29% of preflop hands.
So that makes his preflop range 29% of the 31% of his Vpip range? nope, it means his range when he calls here is about 30% of hands,
I'm going to go back and check this. The stat I was using was in PT3 and I think it said the it was calls to preflop raises out of hands played. I'll check, and I know there are a lot of us who get this wrong, but let's stick with your version 'cos I'm sure you know what you are talking about.

Keith_MM:

Quote:
and why are we calling an UTG open with QJ. you're in mid position so i'm not sure about what you mean with it being in your calling range in late position. What range have you got UTG on and what are his stats.
Daven:

Quote:
Opening range = the range of hands that you will raise with in an unopened pot (i.e. all players fold to you and you will be the first player to voluntarily enter the pot). QJ is a fine hand to open from LP.
Calling range = the range of hand that you call a raise with. This is necessarily far narrower than your opening range. In LP and facing an EP raise you could profitably limit this to 22-QQ in the games you play, folding everything else. QJo is an awful hand to call a proper raise with in the games you play.
bjsaust:

Quote:
Theres a concept in tourney poker which you rarely hear mentioned in ring poker, even though it applies equally, and thats the gap concept. Theres a gap between the range of hands you'll open raise with, and the hands that you'll call a raise with. You need to think about UTGs open range, and consider just how badly a hand like QJo does against that range.

Against a 33% range I only have 46% with QJo so that puts into numbers what you have all be saying. I shouldn't have played it.
[/quote]
I think you're making a massive mistake in your reasoning here.When the action gets to you UTG has raised.Your thoughts now should be about what range has UTG got, how does your hand fair against that range, who is left to act , will they be 3betting , calling or folding. To be basing your decision to play a hand based solely on your perceived equity against someone still to act who may fold anyway seems a bit silly.

rpm:

Quote:
22-QQ,A2s+,A8o+,K8s+,KTo+,Q8s+,QTo+,J8s+,J9o+,suited connectors and one-gappers 43s-T9s and 53s-T8s. i stoved that range and it came to 27%. he probably has more hands here, and i imagine they'd be coming from the suited side of the hand visualiser (more suited K's, and maybe some suited two-gappers) but whatever.
Daven:

Quote:
pre-flop, i'm going to give MP just over 30%, here is a likely range that is 33% (go to stove and check if you want )
22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,54s ,43s,32s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo,T9o,98o
These ranges are similar except perhaps at the very top end. What would he raise with? KK+? QQ+ Or is it as Daven says because he never raises preflop so we can't know what he might have?

Also, both of you have him calling with the same QJo that I shouldn't have played. Is this just because of the increased strength of his position or also the fact that two players before him put money in and so he has much better pot odds and implied odds if he hits two pair?

there are less people to act after him so he is more likely to have the advantage of position for the rest of the hand combined with more money in the pot.

[rpm]

Personally, if I got as far as the turn (I wouldn't be in the hand in reality), I'd check for sure. If he's flushing, he's checking behind for certain, the board just paired, our check could easily be a made boat letting him see a free river.

imo we should be betting at least pot on the turn because villain has so many draws we want him him/her to play incorrectly. plus we only really lose to 8x,T9,JJ,QQ. couldn't see the actual suits or order of each card when i stoved it but anyway - this is our equity on the turn without all the flush draw combos (which our opponent is likely to call with):


Board: Jc 8c Qh 8s
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.576% 63.84% 01.74% 4410 120.00 { QcJd }
Hand 1: 34.424% 32.69% 01.74% 2258 120.00 { QQ-99, ATs+, KQs, KTs, Q9s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, ATo+, KQo, KTo, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o, 87o }

with this range, based on his equity, is he making a bigger mistake if he:
- calls 1/2P
- calls 3/4P
- calls a PSB
- calls an overbet shove AI

obviously the more money that goes in on this turn against that range, the better for us. because we have the equity edge. checking this turn is pretty bad vs this guy in my opinion.

edit: i don't advocate overbet jamming here. i was just trying to illustrate that the more money he puts in the pot with that range on the turn, the bigger a mistake he's making. especially if we're good enough to kill his implied odds and not pay him off.

[Tasha]

Thanks again for the responses. I have already started to apply things I have leaned and I'll see how it goes.

Sasquach, I checked my QJ success in PT3. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but you were quite right, it has been a disastrous hand for me both suited and not.

[OngBonga]

rpm, I don't doubt you're right, I probably should bet for value. I just don't like the turn, I'm kind of lost because I don't really find myself in this spot. Because we paid a x5 ep raise, I'm paranoid about the bigger pair more than the flush draw. I guess I'm just trying to keep the pot small because I don't have huge confidence in my hand, though I recognise its showdown value so I want to get that far if possible. The river of course is horrible and if I called a bet on the turn I'm certainly not doing so on the river.