Spoony Exercise 2: Thinking About Your Own Range (Part 2)

You should complete Exercise 1 before you do this exercise.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Assume 100bb starting stacks. The BU is a nitty TAGG who does not 3-bet very much pre-flop and does not seem to call raises with a wide range of hands. He plays fit-or-fold post-flop for the most part. Assume something like 11/9 in FR or 17/14 in 6-max. The SB is a loose-ish TAGG (think something like 18/15 in FR or 27/24 in 6-max) who 3-bets pre-flop 6% and is capable of 3-bluffing OOP. He also leads a lot of flops, c-bets 85%, and c-bets the turn 60%, being very aggressive. The BB is a complete unknown.

It folds to our Hero pre-flop in the CO who raises to 3 times the big blind. The BU calls, and the blinds fold. The flop pot is 7.5 big blinds, and the flop comes T 6 5 . Hero ...

The exercise here is to write out what your flop range is and how you play each hand in your range.

For example, if your range on the flop for some reason was just {22+}, you might bet {TT+, 66, 55} and check {99-77, 44-22}. That's all we're looking for is for you to list how you play your entire range here after open-raising from the CO and acting first on this flop.

Opening range: 22+, A6s+, K9s+, A9+, KT+, TJ+ 56s+ 79s+

Raise entire range 6bb

Originally Posted by DanAronG

Raise entire range 6bb

But what's the range? To clarify since I didn't in the OP, list the hands or you won't get anything out of this. For you your range is probably in the other thread, but I want to encourage people to post their actual ranges here for what we'll do later.

[1] 22+, A2s+, A9o+, KTo+, K9s+, 45s+, AKs, AKo, QTs+, QTo+, JTo

Bet: 22-44, 99+, A2s+, 56s, A5s, A6s, A9o+, ATo+, K9s+, KTo+, QTs+, QTo+, JTo

Check/Raise: 55, 66, TT

Check: nothing

Check 77-99,AKs,QTs,JTs,T9s,T8s,78s,AKo,QTo,JTo
Bet TT+,66-22,AQs-A6s,K7s+,QJs,Q9s-Q8s,J9s,97s+,86s,76s,AQo-ATo,KTo+,QJo

Do we have to say what we do after villain has played? Like bet/fold, bet/raise or check/fold, etc?

Also, how is this ending? Are you going to comment on our ranges? Some feedback would be nice when this is over.

Is there a part 3?

[1] 22+, Axs+, A9+, 23s+, 24s+ all Broadway combinations

Since Button is fit-or-fold and I'm OOP, I'm betting pretty much my entire range on this flop

Opening: 22+, A5s+, ATo+, KTo+, K9s+, 45s+, J9s+, QTo+, JTo

Bet: 22+, A5s+, ATo+, KTo+, K9s+, 45s+, J9s+, QTo+, JTo

I'm never check raising here even with sets.

Opening:{22+, A2s+, A8o+, K9s+, Q8s+, J8s+, 34s+, 89o+, all broadways}

Betting: All air hands, all Tx, 55, 66, TT+, OESDs, 22-44, BDFDs+overs, 56

Checking: Midpair type hands, 5x, 6x, 77-99

PF: 22+,A2s+,A7o+,KTs,78o+,45s+,BW's

c/f (to normal sized raise) 77-99
b/r: 55-66,TT
b/c: AT,56,JJ+
b/f: rest of range

pf: 22+, A5o+, A2s+, K9s+, KTo+, Q9o+, Q8s+, J9s+, Jto, and then a bunch of 54s, 65s sc type hands.

ill be checking 99, 88, and like 76, 54, 44.

ill lead with everything else.

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

[1]

Bet: 99+,

Check/Raise: 55, 66, TT

Check: nothing

wat

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

[1]

Bet: 99+,

Check/Raise: 55, 66, TT

Check: nothing

wat

I knew I would miss one hand and someone would find it.

BTW, where are yours?

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

You should complete Exercise 1 before you do this exercise.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Assume 100bb starting stacks. The BU is a nitty TAGG who does not 3-bet very much pre-flop and does not seem to call raises with a wide range of hands. He plays fit-or-fold post-flop for the most part. Assume something like 11/9 in FR or 17/14 in 6-max. The SB is a loose-ish TAGG (think something like 18/15 in FR or 27/24 in 6-max) who 3-bets pre-flop 6% and is capable of 3-bluffing OOP. He also leads a lot of flops, c-bets 85%, and c-bets the turn 60%, being very aggressive. The BB is a complete unknown.

It folds to our Hero pre-flop in the CO who raises to 3 times the big blind. The BU calls, and the blinds fold. The flop pot is 7.5 big blinds, and the flop comes T 6 5 . Hero ...

The exercise here is to write out what your flop range is and how you play each hand in your range.

For example, if your range on the flop for some reason was just {22+}, you might bet {TT+, 66, 55} and check {99-77, 44-22}. That's all we're looking for is for you to list how you play your entire range here after open-raising from the CO and acting first on this flop.

Ok Spoon, I'm confused, isn't that what we did in part 1, meaning, we said what hands we did each step of the way with... thus, we already answered the question, but let me look at it again... maybe i see the difference here... let me do this and see what comes of it...

(frustrating how slow the forums are loading today)
From part 1 of the exercise answer:
[1] My range in CO to open, based upon the description of the players to follow, is 22+, Axs, A9o+, KTs+, KJo, QJs and sometimes QJo, SC's down to 67.

Now back to this post... ok... let's see.. you asked "The exercise here is to write out what your flop range is and how you play each hand in your range."

So, I'll list the ranges and the actions after them:
22+, At, A6, A5, Kt : C-bet this flop to build pot
Ax, KJ, QJ: C-bet this flop probably 60% - 70% of the time

I hope that was what you were after, the immediate post-flop action, if you wanted reaction to villian action after the immediate action, I missed it..

Originally Posted by Monty3038

Ok Spoon, I'm confused, isn't that what we did in part 1, meaning, we said what hands we did each step of the way with... thus, we already answered the question, but let me look at it again... maybe i see the difference here... let me do this and see what comes of it...

(frustrating how slow the forums are loading today)
From part 1 of the exercise answer:
[1] My range in CO to open, based upon the description of the players to follow, is 22+, Axs, A9o+, KTs+, KJo, QJs and sometimes QJo, SC's down to 67.

Now back to this post... ok... let's see.. you asked "The exercise here is to write out what your flop range is and how you play each hand in your range."

So, I'll list the ranges and the actions after them:
22+, At, A6, A5, Kt : C-bet this flop to build pot
Ax, KJ, QJ: C-bet this flop probably 60% - 70% of the time

I hope that was what you were after, the immediate post-flop action, if you wanted reaction to villian action after the immediate action, I missed it..

In Exercise 1 you're looking at how your range changes from street to street after you take a certain line. In Exercise 2 you're just looking at how your range breaks down on a single street. They're related ideas, but different, similar to how pot odds when you're calling an all-in and implied odds when you're calling with a draw with money behind are related ideas, but still different.

Both of these are just asking what your range is, which is a pretty easy question. In Exercise 3, we're asking why exactly your range is what it is in terms of exploitation and the ability to be exploited yourself, which is a slightly more difficult question, and coincidentally one that no one has answered yet after over 50 views.

Basically I'm taking this one step at a time so people don't get overwhelmed with the process, but we're taking a hand and completely deconstructing and analyzing our play as individuals. That's why there is no right or wrong answer to Exercises 1 & 2 because it depends on your own personal opening ranges pre-flop in that situation and your own disposition towards continuation betting.

There are too many of you guys for me to go through and check each of your analysis individually. Hopefully you guys can do that for each other to assist in your own individual processes of learning.

Exercise 4 is going to build on Exercise 3, but it's going to have a focus on exploitation and ideas in balance instead of just mindlessly typing out a range. That's why for months now I've bitched at people to put their opponents on ranges and think about how their opponents play those ranges. You have to be able to do that before you can think about how to exploit them, maximize your EV, or adjust when they do.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by Monty3038

Ok Spoon, I'm confused, isn't that what we did in part 1, meaning, we said what hands we did each step of the way with... thus, we already answered the question, but let me look at it again... maybe i see the difference here... let me do this and see what comes of it...

(frustrating how slow the forums are loading today)
From part 1 of the exercise answer:
[1] My range in CO to open, based upon the description of the players to follow, is 22+, Axs, A9o+, KTs+, KJo, QJs and sometimes QJo, SC's down to 67.

Now back to this post... ok... let's see.. you asked "The exercise here is to write out what your flop range is and how you play each hand in your range."

So, I'll list the ranges and the actions after them:
22+, At, A6, A5, Kt : C-bet this flop to build pot
Ax, KJ, QJ: C-bet this flop probably 60% - 70% of the time

I hope that was what you were after, the immediate post-flop action, if you wanted reaction to villian action after the immediate action, I missed it..

In Exercise 1 you're looking at how your range changes from street to street after you take a certain line. In Exercise 2 you're just looking at how your range breaks down on a single street. They're related ideas, but different, similar to how pot odds when you're calling an all-in and implied odds when you're calling with a draw with money behind are related ideas, but still different.

Both of these are just asking what your range is, which is a pretty easy question. In Exercise 3, we're asking why exactly your range is what it is in terms of exploitation and the ability to be exploited yourself, which is a slightly more difficult question, and coincidentally one that no one has answered yet after over 50 views.

Basically I'm taking this one step at a time so people don't get overwhelmed with the process, but we're taking a hand and completely deconstructing and analyzing our play as individuals. That's why there is no right or wrong answer to Exercises 1 & 2 because it depends on your own personal opening ranges pre-flop in that situation and your own disposition towards continuation betting.

There are too many of you guys for me to go through and check each of your analysis individually. Hopefully you guys can do that for each other to assist in your own individual processes of learning.

Exercise 4 is going to build on Exercise 3, but it's going to have a focus on exploitation and ideas in balance instead of just mindlessly typing out a range. That's why for months now I've bitched at people to put their opponents on ranges and think about how their opponents play those ranges. You have to be able to do that before you can think about how to exploit them, maximize your EV, or adjust when they do.

Thanks Spoon, I'm working on 3 now, trying to figure it out... hopefully will have something to post shortly (if work time permits)

[1] {22+, A2s+, A9o+, K8s+, K9o+, Q9s+, QTo+, JT, 54s+, 75s+}


Check: {44, 77-99, A5s-A6s, 75s-86s, 54s, 76s }
Bet 5.5bb: {22-33, 55-66, TT+, A2s-A4s, A7s+, A9o+, K8s+, K9o+, Q9s+, QTo+, JT, 65s, 87s, 98s+, 97s+}

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

You should complete Exercise 1 before you do this exercise.


The exercise here is to write out what your flop range is and how you play each hand in your range.

For example, if your range on the flop for some reason was just {22+}, you might bet {TT+, 66, 55} and check {99-77, 44-22}. That's all we're looking for is for you to list how you play your entire range here after open-raising from the CO and acting first on this flop.

Range: 33+, A6s+, K8s+, QTs+, JTs, 87s+, ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo+

C/R - TT, 66, 55, 65, T5+

Bet - 77-99, JJ+

Check only: 22-44 and everything else.

preflop range:
22+, A2s+, A9o+, K8s+, KTo+, Q8s+, Q9o+, J9s+, J9o+, suited connectors 45-9T

flop:
bet: TT+, 55, 66, AT, KTo, QT, JT, 78 (obv the weaker T's arent being called by much worse except 77,88,99 so i won't go for two streets with them), the rest i bet as a bluff because he's straightforward and a nit.
check: 77,88,99, A5, A6, 45, 67 because we are rarely called by worse when we bet these hands. but they have SD value vs villains missed overcards/pocket pairs

lead for 4bb's: A2s-A9s, A7o-A9o, AJ-AK, 22-44, 77-99, 54s, 76s-98s, 75s-97s, J9s, K8s, K9, KJ+, Q8s, Q9, QJ, J8s-J9s, i think that's everything?

lead for 6.5bb's: 55/66/TT, QT+, JJ+, 65s

c/c: T7s-JTs, T9o-JTo

I bet my entire preflop range on the flop which is: 22-AA, QJ, KT+, A9+

22-44, 77-99, QJ, KJ+, : bet 5BB. If he has air, he will fold so no need to bet more to take the pot now and reduce the risk of more overcards landing if I hold a low PP. I bet even my 77-99 hands b/c I am not that far ahead of him so I will try to take it down now.

55, 66, TT+: bet 6-7BB. If he has nothing it won't really matter what I bet, b/c he'll fold so I'll bet big and hope he has TPTK or something slightly worse than me and pay off.

Ok, so my range was this: 22+, AT+, KJ+, A7s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s.

I'm betting about 5BB with both my strong hands: 55, 66, TT-AA and my most-likely-to-improve missed hands: 78, 89, any 2 missed overcards.

I'll check-call 77-99, and any pair of tens, which leaves me check-folding 22-44, A7-A9s.

Wow, there's a really wide variety of answers to this one!

From Exercise 1:

Originally Posted by Penyamon

[1] preflop:
broadway
22+
a5s
a9o
t9s, j9s, q9s, k9s

(My standard CO range ~ 22%)

[2] flop c-bet:
broadway
55, 66
A5s, A6s
T9s

flop check:
99-77, 44-22
A9-A7s
J9s, Q9s, K9s

The exercise here is to write out what your flop range is and how you play each hand in your range.

For example, if your range on the flop for some reason was just {22+}, you might bet {TT+, 66, 55} and check {99-77, 44-22}. That's all we're looking for is for you to list how you play your entire range here after open-raising from the CO and acting first on this flop.

I am raising pre-flop here with 22+, A2s+, A8o+, K9s+, K10o+, J8s+, Q9o+, 108o+, 97s+, 87o+, 54s+

I am betting 22-66, JJ-AA, A2s+, A8o+, K9s+, K10o+, J8s+, Q9o+, 108o+, 97s+, 87o+, 54s+
I am checking 77-1010

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

You should complete Exercise 1 before you do this exercise.


The exercise here is to write out what your flop range is and how you play each hand in your range.

For example, if your range on the flop for some reason was just {22+}, you might bet {TT+, 66, 55} and check {99-77, 44-22}. That's all we're looking for is for you to list how you play your entire range here after open-raising from the CO and acting first on this flop.

Here was my range from the previous exercise:
Face cards, 45s-9Ts, AXs, PP, 57s-8Ts

To be clear vs fit/fold I'm betting my entire range here.

Bet/fold - Anything that completely misses this board or hit far too lightly: 22-44, 77-99, Random face cards, 45s, 57s, 79s, 98s, 9Js (note this depends on his sizing) (anything that doesn't fit the other 2 categories)

Bet/call - 56s, 78s, TJ+, JJ+

bet/3bet - TT, 66, 55

My range:
{ 22+, A8o+, A2s+, K2s+, KTo+, QTo+, QTs+, JTo, JTs, 87s-T9s, T9o }

I bet the entire range. If he raises:

3bet: { 55, 66, TT }
Call: { JJ+, ATo, ATs, KTs, QTs, JTs, 87s }

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

You should complete Exercise 1 before you do this exercise.


The exercise here is to write out what your flop range is and how you play each hand in your range.

For example, if your range on the flop for some reason was just {22+}, you might bet {TT+, 66, 55} and check {99-77, 44-22}. That's all we're looking for is for you to list how you play your entire range here after open-raising from the CO and acting first on this flop.

So I think I understand what it is you're looking for spoon. Here goes my effort:

Range: {22+/87s+/J9s+/KT+/A2s+/A8+}
Flop: T 6 5

standard c-bet which is 1/3 pot. If I get raised with one of the small pp's then I'm going to have to have the correct odds to continue. If I hit a set then I'd probably kick it up to 1/2 to 3/4 pot and probably shove over any raise, otherwise just plan on getting it all in.

Spoon something tells me I'm not even close to completing what you want?

Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

standard c-bet which is 1/3 pot.

Your standard cbet size is 1/3 pot? Why so small?

Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

If I get raised with one of the small pp's then I'm going to have to have the correct odds to continue.

How would you have correct odds to continue? If we suspect he's only raising with made hands (at least TPTK), then you only have 2 outs.

Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

If I hit a set then I'd probably kick it up to 1/2 to 3/4 pot and probably shove over any raise, otherwise just plan on getting it all in.

You wouldn't increase your bet size if you had TPTK, two pair, or an overpair? You'd still bet 1/3 pot?

Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

Spoon something tells me I'm not even close to completing what you want?

No, you answered it correctly. Some people don't cbet their entire range here, so their answer will have multiple actions (ie, "I bet with this range, check/call with this range, check/fold with this range"). As you get through more of the exercises, you start to see what can be left out of your cbet range (and why). At least, I did. But maybe I'm just making more mistakes now....

Given the earlier situation a Cbet is the optimum action. Bet sizing is a science I have yet to master so 5bb regardless of flop seems appropiate. If I had TPTK I might bet higher - with a set I might bet a bit lower trying to keep him interested.

1. 22+,A2s+,K2s+,QTs+,JTs,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,54 s,A8o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

btn calling range:

22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,5 4s,A8o+,KTo+,QTo+

this is an ats range for me, bu is nit(folds alot here) sb is only continuing ~1 out of every 4 times and although bb is unknown we have position and can play this range very well against him if he calls
-----------------------------------------

2. given that bu is fit or fold im cbetting this entire range, he is folding way way way to often here and i want to exploit that.

btn calling range:

TT+,66-55,ATs,A6s-A5s,KTs,QTs,JTs,T8s+,87s,65s,54s,ATo,KTo,QTo+


so far i have bet my entire range on the flop and villain now calls and we have a range that he is doing this with. as a side note even though my range is slightly behind his continuing range on the flop im still cbetting 100% of my range because he is making the mistake of folding his draws, mp type hands here way to often.

22+,A2s+,K2s+,QTs+,JTs,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,54 s,A8o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo


of this range i lead turn again with:

TT+,66-55,AcJc,AdJd,AhJh,AcTc,AdTd,AhTh,As9s,As8s,As7s,As 6s,As5s,As4s,As3s,As2s,KJs-KTs,Ks9s,Ks8s,Ks7s,Ks6s,Ks5s,Ks4s,Ks3s,Ks2s,QTs+,J Ts,97ss+,65s,AJo-ATo,KJo-KTo,QTo+,JTo

c/f

a2s-a4s, a7s-a9s, aqs-aks (all non spade combos), k2s-k4s, k7s-k9s, (non spade combos) 97s+(non spades)

for 22-44, 77-99 unless he makes like a min bet or something then im calling to my two outs. im also calling lolsmall bets with ak aq 97s+(non spade combos) to look for my 4 outs

c/c reasonable bet sizes

86s+,75s+,64s+,54s


RIVAAAR

lead again for value with

TT+,66-55,AcJc,AdJd,AhJh,AcTc,AdTd,AhTh,KTs,QTs,JTs,65s,A Jo-ATo,KTo,QTo,JTo

c/c sometimes and b/f sometimes
qj, kj

c/f
86s+,75s+,64s+,54s,22-44,77-99,aqs-aks (all non spade combos), k2s-k4s, k7s-k9s, (non spade combos) 97s+(non spades)

This is a bit different from exercise 1, because villain is "fit or fold" guy and I haven't done that into consideration.

Opening:
22+, AT+, A2s+, 45s+, J+T+

On T56 flop with action as described, my ranges are:

Bet/fold as bluff: 22-44, A2s-A9s, AJ+, Q+J+, 45s-98s
Bet/3bet: TT, 66, 55
Bet/fold for protection: T9s, JT, JJ, QQ (Yes, I'm dumping JJ-QQ to a single raise)

Very weak and polarized but who cares, he's a bad nit.

Check: KK+, AT for two streets of value without stackoff threat. Option of check/raising when villain will bet/shove lower PP's or spazz out.

I assume, "fit" means "TP+ on flop, QQ+ on turn" without floats, stabs and other "woof woof".

It's totally unbalanced, but in order to exploit, one must be exploitive, right?

[1] opening range is: 22+, A6s+, JTs+, QJo+, T9s, 98s

[2] bet 55+, Tx+, any A
bet fold any nonheart suited, 22-44, QJ. Expecting a fold most times by BTN
check 8h9h, KQ, KJ

[3] He has a piece of this. As described, he's no worse than a pr T, Good kicker. Overpr would not surprise me at all.
bet 55, 66, TT+, As6s, KsQs, AJ, AT, KJ, JT
check offsuit KQ, Any Ax I didnt bet, QT, QJ, KT

[4] bet 55, 66, TT+, AT, AJ, KJ, JT
check As6s, KsQs

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

You should complete before you do this exercise.

The exercise here is to write out what your flop range is and how you play each hand in your range.

For example, if your range on the flop for some reason was just {22+}, you might bet {TT+, 66, 55} and check {99-77, 44-22}. That's all we're looking for is for you to list how you play your entire range here after open-raising from the CO and acting first on this flop.

Range on flop was 66+, KJ+, T9s+, JTs+, Q9s+ K9s+, A4s+


Betting: 66, TT+, AJ+, KJ+, KQ, T9s+, JTs+, Q9s+, K9s+, A9s+ because these have all hit something decent on the flop, or can use the flop to draw something decent in the future, or are overpairs.

Checking: 77-99, A4s-A8s because the flop does not help these hands, and I already suspect it has helped the BU.

So I'm betting most of my range.

My opening range in lesson 1 was ATC.

I'm c-betting my entire range but with varying bet sizes.

If I caught air, a BDFD (not to the nuts), mid or bottom pr, or a straight draw (open ended or gutshot) then about 3/4 of the time I'm gonna bet about 1/2 pot to try to take it down. The other 1/4 time will be about 2/3 pot.

Top pr, the nut BDFD, a set or 2pr, then the percentages get flipped and about 3/4 of the time I'll bet about 2/3 pot, the other 1/4 will be about 1/2 pot.

i'd bet any pair or better and any draw (including gutshots) 5bb, c/f the rest