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NLHE T+P:Week 7 - Raising Preflop!

  
 
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Hoopy
Old 07-10-2010, 01:12 PM     Post subject: NLHE T+P:Week 7 - Raising Preflop! #1 (permalink)  
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 I'll get this week started since Carroters is probably busy and has already put loads of effort into each thread.

So this section runs from pg99-110 and is all about the reasons to raise preflop. Sklansky lists the following;

1. Value
2. Isolation
3. Steal
4. Semi-Bluff
5. Deception
6. Pot size manipulation

Read, digest, discuss.
 
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apedPlealia
Old 07-10-2010, 03:27 PM     Post subject: Whant to meet you #2 (permalink)  
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 Hi i'm newbie here and i want to meen you
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Carroters
Old 07-10-2010, 04:24 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 Thanks for starting this Hoopy, I was making this thread last night then my puter fucked up. This is where I'd got to.

This topic runs from page 98 - page 110. We'll be discussing all kinds of spots where we either open, 3 bet, 4 bet or stick money into the pot as a raise preflop. We'll be determining why we're doing this and looking at the reasons to raise given by the author. It's imparative in poker to always know what we're aiming to achieve and what we think makes our raise the right play every time we raise preflop. Why are we opening JTo on the BU, why are we 3 betting AQ BB vs CO, why are 3 betting J6s vs this guy?

I'm going to kick things off by giving a few examples from hands that I've played recently, showing each of the author's reasons for a preflop raise in action. Then I'll be posting a set of questions, where I'll show an example hand and ask what reasons there are for hero making the raise he's made.

I'll do this probably tomorrow and if not then defo Monday.

 
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Carroters
Old 07-10-2010, 04:26 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Also, this.

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Originally Posted by apedPlealia View Post
Hi i'm newbie here and i want to meen you

 
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StarGrinder
Old 07-10-2010, 09:13 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 I need to read this book again. And this time actually read it not just skim and think 'yeah I get that'... because I probably don't/didn't.

{Edit: Not supposed to talk about pirating here, rah rah rules etc. --spoonitnow}

^ my bad dude
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Hoopy
Old 07-12-2010, 06:30 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 Ok so I've reread this section and have a few thoughts.

Stack size is a key factor (as mentioned at the very start of the book) in your reasoning for raising pre-flop. Some of the reasons aren't so important when you are short stacked (deception/pot size manipulation) whereas raising for Value becomes the main reason when short.

One other thing, mixing up your play against regs is great but against bad players it's probably fine to be unbalanced and take the most +EV always, rather than taking some slightly less +EV lines to balance.

Interested what other people think about limping the BTN.
 
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JKDS
Old 07-12-2010, 06:45 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 I dont have my book with me atm, so i cant really argue about what sklanksy might say about limping the btn.

But, just thinknig about it i cant really see how open limping a button would ever be better than just straight up raising.

Limping behind is great sometimes, but i just like the idea of position + initiative too much to give it up. Ya, people know were raising wide and they might adjust and start 3betting, but then we can play in position in 3bet pots with the good hands, 4b some, and in the end that doesnt seem like such a bad thing.

What are sklan's points for limping it?
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But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
 
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spoonitnow
Old 07-12-2010, 07:13 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
I dont have my book with me atm, so i cant really argue about what sklanksy might say about limping the btn.

But, just thinknig about it i cant really see how open limping a button would ever be better than just straight up raising.

Limping behind is great sometimes, but i just like the idea of position + initiative too much to give it up. Ya, people know were raising wide and they might adjust and start 3betting, but then we can play in position in 3bet pots with the good hands, 4b some, and in the end that doesnt seem like such a bad thing.

What are sklan's points for limping it?
For a fun example to get you started thinking about this, imagine a Villain in the big blind who is particularly good pre-flop and particularly bad post-flop and has a 40bb stack.
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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Carroters
Old 07-13-2010, 12:37 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 A few example hands from a collection of perfectly played hands that is my HEM databse.

1. For value. Villain is 23/20 and a fairly spewy and bad reg who hates folding. He's folded to 40% of 3 bets over 700 hands. This is so incredibly std I don't even think I need to exaplin why this is a good spot to raise for value. It mostly hinges on his superwide continuing range and notion to spew post flop when he defends as well as his notion to 4 bet bluff and donate me 25bbs for no real reason.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($179.15)
BB ($100)
UTG ($164.05)
MP ($79.20)
CO ($108.50)
Hero (Button) ($100)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A
2 folds, CO bets $3, Hero raises $9

2. As a semi bwuff. Villain is a solid 100NL reg running 25/22 and folding to 70% of 3 bets. Since there are squeezers behind me I don't think I'm ever going to be very +EV flatting here. His range is fairly wide from here but not so wide that I can make enough moves or have the best hand enough postflop here to continue thatprofitably by flatting his open. His range is also not tight enough to give me a ton of implied odds when I flop a monstroe, so thatcoupled with him being pretty okay postflop makes me wanna 3 bet bluff. His highish fold to 3 bet and the fact he's oop should get me more than enough folds. Should he flat, my hand plays well IP and is infrequently dominated by his continuing range.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($100)
UTG ($105.70)
Hero (MP) ($100)
Button ($100)
SB ($100)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 6, 8
UTG bets $3, Hero raises $9

3. For Isolation. Why do we isolate people. Well for one it's eaiser to take down pots post flop where we're gonna need to be c betting a lot. 2. We can take advantage of players weaknesses to a much greater extent when we are in a 2 way pot with them in position. Bear these in mind then for this hand. Villain is 64/11 and folds to 70% of c bets, he's limp called a ton so far. Obviously, K2s isn't an amazing hand here although it does likely have okayish equity vs his limping range. This isn't what's important though, honestly I think you could isolate close to any 2 vs this guy provded the blinds weren't 3 betting a ton etc. He'll just fold to c bet so so much that even with no equity we'll be +EV to fire on most boards. Given he doesn't float very lightly or anything and prolly doesn't enjoy folding hands that he's called the flop with we should be planning on c betting once with our air and giving up on most turn cards. This alone will show a ton of porofit. Given that K2s has potential to flop flushes flush draws and top pairs sometimes we just add to our expected value.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($38.70)
CO ($183.60)
Hero (Button) ($132.90)
SB ($122.10)
BB ($64.10)
UTG ($137.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2, K
1 fold, MP calls $1, 1 fold, Hero bets $4

 
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Hoopy
Old 07-15-2010, 01:09 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 Regarding hand 2 your 3 bet probably looks stronger to him since he opened UTG and you 3 bet in MP right? Also it's kind of interesting which type of hands to 3 bet him with here, since equity wise vs his calling range {JJ-77,AQs-ATs,KQs,AQo-AJo,KQo}

55 > A5s > 86s

Yet in terms of semi bluffing and avoiding ROI I'd much rather 3bet 86s.

I also need to start isolating players like that with a wider range.
 
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Carroters
Old 07-17-2010, 04:24 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 In hand 2, I think his continuing range is definitely much tighter than that fwiw and would expect a std reg like this to be mucking 99 and worse and AJo ATs a lot of the time given his position and mine unless he has a read that I'm doing this light from here.

 
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Hoopy
Old 07-19-2010, 09:16 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters View Post
In hand 2, I think his continuing range is definitely much tighter than that fwiw and would expect a std reg like this to be mucking 99 and worse and AJo ATs a lot of the time given his position and mine unless he has a read that I'm doing this light from here.
Yeah that was a bad range I put him on, too loose with no dynamic.
 
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philly and the phanatics
Old 07-19-2010, 09:45 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by HoopyDude View Post
Regarding hand 2 your 3 bet probably looks stronger to him since he opened UTG and you 3 bet in MP right? Also it's kind of interesting which type of hands to 3 bet him with here, since equity wise vs his calling range {JJ-77,AQs-ATs,KQs,AQo-AJo,KQo}

55 > A5s > 86s

Yet in terms of semi bluffing and avoiding ROI I'd much rather 3bet 86s.

I also need to start isolating players like that with a wider range.
not trying to be a dick just trying to clear it up but ROI is supposed to be RIO here right? reverse implied odds? not return on investment?
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Hoopy
Old 07-20-2010, 12:48 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics View Post
not trying to be a dick just trying to clear it up but ROI is supposed to be RIO here right? reverse implied odds? not return on investment?
OMFG you're being such a dick pointing shit like that out. RAGE!!!!1!!


Yeah it's meant to be Reverse Implied odds.
 
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littleogre
Old 07-20-2010, 01:39 AM #15 (permalink)  

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 are you guys talking about his book theory and practice? I just got it about 5 minutes ago.
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Micro2Macro
Old 07-20-2010, 04:47 AM #16 (permalink)  
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are you guys talking about his book theory and practice? I just got it about 5 minutes ago.
you tilt me beyond a comprehensible level. words cannot describe this form of tilt.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Imthenewfish
Old 07-20-2010, 04:49 AM #17 (permalink)  
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m2m burn
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philly and the phanatics
Old 07-20-2010, 04:50 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 newfish its past your bed time
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Old 07-20-2010, 04:50 AM #19 (permalink)  
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its 9:50pm
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Micro2Macro
Old 07-20-2010, 04:59 AM #20 (permalink)  
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 Ok getting this thread back on track:

something to keep in mind about raising preflop is that you typically won't be raising for just one single reason, but rather a combination.

Example: With 100bb starting stacks a standard TAG opens 3bb UTG, MP1 who is a bit weak and passive calls in MP2 and the Button who is a VERY loose calling station fish comes along. You have AQo in the BB and bump it to 18bb's.

Now you aren't 3betting AQ vs UTG for value, you are bluffing since you're not getting worse hands to call here (lfdo). But you are 3betting it for value with respect to the loose calling station because he's going to be coming along with dominated Ax and Qx hands. So isolation in this scenario works as both a bluff and a value bet for different players. Also having AQ here in your range is somewhat deceptive, for UTG can no longer just assume you always have the nuts in such a spot which is typical of most players (only squeezing QQ+AK here) and therefore widening your range making it tougher to put you on a single hand.

you are risking 17 to win 3+3+3+1.5 = 10.5 bb's preflop so even with UTG having a very strong opening range he isn't going to need to fold that often to make this profitable in a preflop vacuum.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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littleogre
Old 07-20-2010, 07:50 AM #21 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
you tilt me beyond a comprehensible level. words cannot describe this form of tilt.
You know what dude i was asking because i was going to join the discussion but you can kiss my ass you damn jerk.
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Micro2Macro
Old 07-20-2010, 08:23 AM #22 (permalink)  
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You know what dude i was asking because i was going to join the discussion but you can kiss my ass you damn jerk.
it says right in the title what book it is there is no need to ask what we are reading itt

also the fact that you just got this book 5 minutes ago tilts me for 2 reasons:

1) these threads have been going on for over 6 weeks now
2) this book should have been read before reading books such as ltbr that have you trying to implement advanced concepts in the wrong games
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Carroters
Old 07-20-2010, 11:38 AM #23 (permalink)  
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 Aight guys no need for hate in this thread. Yah it's fairly obvious what these threads are about and they have indeed been going for ages. Just because you've only just realised though doesn't mean you shouldn't still participate. There are a ton of good basic concepts in here that should be implemented before we try to apply more advanced stuff to micro games as M2M said, and I'd recomend anyone coming across these threads or lurking behind the scenes to get involved.

 
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dranger7070
Old 07-21-2010, 05:58 AM #24 (permalink)  
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I need to get involved in these wtf. Good stuff guys, if I ever decide to get off my ass and read it I'll go through these threads and post my thoughts.
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