[2NL] KTs Vs Limper

This guy was limping a lot. Had only played 15 hands but he had limped 90% of time, 33% call a raise, 66% fold to raise. He was 87/0 so far & hadn't folded to one cbet on flop or turn.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP) ($2)
Button ($2.12)
SB ($1.63)
BB ($6.20)
UTG ($5.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, 10
UTG calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.08, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.19) 3, 9, 10 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.14, UTG calls $0.14

Turn: ($0.47) K (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.40, UTG calls $0.40

River: ($1.27) 6 (2 players)
UTG bets $2.16, Hero ???

Massive donk on river makes me think he is bluffing? What makes sense here? 78s? I don't think he gets the right odds to play an OESD to the river does he?

You played this hand perfectly, and id call fwiw. It's such a ridiculous bet, i think he can have a worse two pair/1pair hand alot and possibly some missed diamonds/other airballs. If he turns up with 78/JQ, take a note he overbets the pot with the nuts on the river.

Judging by his willingness to chase draws with insufficient odds you'll win your $ back and more pretty quickly, providing he stays at the table.

Fold - tards don't donk overbet the river without the goods.

Only calling if I've previously seen villain do this as a bluff.

^^ this.

I'm not paying to see if I'm playing against one of the rare micro-donks who will double-float and donk the river. I let someone else pay and I still get to see.

Don't forget that this is an effective bet of $1.38 cos that's all you have behind. You say 'i don't think he gets the right odds to play an oesd to the river' - that is ridiculous and you're out-leveling yourself - he's 87-0, he isn't considering whether he has the correct odds vs number of outs when he makes a call...

About 30% so meh it's close, do you think he does this with 96/T9?
obv he can have 78/33/66/QJ/whatever, but he can have a lot of stuff you beat too. I don't think calling is terrible, but nor is folding. The close decisions aren't where the huge mistakes are being made if you're trying to beat 2nl.

Originally Posted by daven

The close decisions aren't where the huge mistakes are being made if you're trying to beat 2nl.

.

Not ever folding 2 pair here. Villain has all kinds of garbage in his range that he thinks is the nuts. He's probably just bad enough to play AA this way.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Massive donk on river makes me think he is bluffing? What makes sense here? 78s? I don't think he gets the right odds to play an OESD to the river does he?

Why do you think villain understands any thing about odds?

I assume everybody knows how to play poker unless they show me otherwise. Maybe a mistake, I don't know.

Eightyseven zero

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I assume everybody knows how to play poker unless they show me otherwise. Maybe a mistake, I don't know.

I think in todays games you can assume basically like everyone has some idea what they are doing pre-flop. That is until they prove they aren't which usually doesn't take long.

Postflop you can assume most people suck but they all suck for different reasons so it's also hard to make assumptions about what the average villain does until you play thousands(hundreds of ?) hands and ofcourse this changes as you move up.

That said I'd call and not lose sleep if I lose.

Of those times he didn't fold to a cbet on the flop or turn, what did he do on the river in those hands?

Fwiw, we only have to call a roughly pot sized bet due to the effective stack ($1.38 on river).

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I assume everybody knows how to play poker unless they show me otherwise. Maybe a mistake, I don't know.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

I think in todays games you can assume basically like everyone has some idea what they are doing pre-flop. That is until they prove they aren't which usually doesn't take long.

I have a massive issue with all of this.

It might be because of the site I'm playing on now but I can't imagine 2nl at stars has changed that much since Black Friday. People are bad at poker and an 87/0 is gonna prove to be bad no matter how many hands you have on him. Assuming that an 87/0 has some idea of what he's doing preflop is completely fucking moronic.

Cobra, I really think you need to get out of the mindframe that people know how to play poker and realize that very few people know how to play poker and take advantage of how much they actually suck.

Originally Posted by supa

I have a massive issue with all of this.

It might be because of the site I'm playing on now but I can't imagine 2nl at stars has changed that much since Black Friday. People are bad at poker and an 87/0 is gonna prove to be bad no matter how many hands you have on him. Assuming that an 87/0 has some idea of what he's doing preflop is completely fucking moronic.

Cobra, I really think you need to get out of the mindframe that people know how to play poker and realize that very few people know how to play poker and take advantage of how much they actually suck.

That is until they prove they aren't which usually doesn't take long.
That is until they prove they aren't which usually doesn't take long.
That is until they prove they aren't which usually doesn't take long.
That is until they prove they aren't which usually doesn't take long.


Holy shit people can't comprehend anything now can they? Did you even read my post? I said assume people have a clue what they are doing pre until they prove they aren't. Someone who is 87/0 even after 10hands clearly is horrible. I don't even understand how you can misinterpret my post. The average villain plays okay pre-flop in today's games. Ofcourse there are very poor players but we'll know this after the first 10-20hands at a table.

I'm getting sick of everyone on this forum being terrible at english and misinterpreting pretty much every post anyone makes.

Maybe start assuming everyone on this forum is good at English, until they prove they aren't which usually doesn't take long.

I just assume everyone sucks because I've been doing this for a while now and I still suck. So unless I've noted you as not sucking, you suck. But maybe I also suck at determining who does and does not suck? That would suck.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

That is until they prove they aren't which usually doesn't take long.
That is until they prove they aren't which usually doesn't take long.
That is until they prove they aren't which usually doesn't take long.
That is until they prove they aren't which usually doesn't take long.


Holy shit people can't comprehend anything now can they? Did you even read my post? I said assume people have a clue what they are doing pre until they prove they aren't. Someone who is 87/0 even after 10hands clearly is horrible. I don't even understand how you can misinterpret my post. The average villain plays okay pre-flop in today's games. Ofcourse there are very poor players but we'll know this after the first 10-20hands at a table.

I'm getting sick of everyone on this forum being terrible at english and misinterpreting pretty much every post anyone makes.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. I have a ton of respect for you and try to show it when I can. So, as diplomatically as it can be put, you really should work on not being a punk ass bitch.

I did read your post. I think it was poorly written. You said all the right words but the connotation imo is adverse to the message cobra should be getting. He has a habit of believing that everyone he plays against understands the game to at least his level and he needs to let that go. I believe the message you are sending him is to the contrary and simply reinforcing a bad habit.

Honestly, I don't give a fuck what you're sick of. But calling me out and implying that I'm stupid isn't something I'm going to allow you to do.

Originally Posted by supa

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. I have a ton of respect for you and try to show it when I can. So, as diplomatically as it can be put, you really should work on not being a punk ass bitch.

I did read your post. I think it was poorly written. You said all the right words but the connotation imo is adverse to the message cobra should be getting. He has a habit of believing that everyone he plays against understands the game to at least his level and he needs to let that go. I believe the message you are sending him is to the contrary and simply reinforcing a bad habit.

Honestly, I don't give a fuck what you're sick of. But calling me out and implying that I'm stupid isn't something I'm going to allow you to do.

Will that not work against me if I ever get to move up the stakes? I assume everyone knows how to play as they have found a poker site and have deposited real money to play with.

How would I go about changing my thought process then? Do I just treat everyone as if they have no clue what they are doing? Value bet TP all the time? I have no idea how to get around this?

A larger % of players will have greater skill as you move up in stakes. You will have to learn to adjust to that. Generalizing either way is bad which is basically what your doing now. So no, don't assume anything. Let the facts speak for themselves.

In the case of this hand you are assuming that an 87/0 has some understanding of pot odds. This is where you need to change your thought process. This villain is a massive fish and has no clue wtf he is doing. He's as happy chasing an open ender as he is a gutshot.

Read this thread of yours again. http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...on-191629.html This time you have a villain that has shown he'll call with gutshots but you're scared to get the money in because he'll only call with worse. Do you understand how backwards that is? From what I've seen you're making assumptions on villains based on what you think they should do and not what they are capable of doing, even when they've proven what they are capable of doing. If you stop playing yourself and start playing the villain you are going to make money.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

I think in todays games you can assume basically like everyone has some idea what they are doing pre-flop. That is until they prove they aren't which usually doesn't take long.

Postflop you can assume most people suck but they all suck for different reasons so it's also hard to make assumptions about what the average villain does until you play thousands(hundreds of ?) hands and ofcourse this changes as you move up.
.

great post

at anyone who didn't read this thoroughly or grasp the implication: you can start assuming people suck preflop after very few hands sometimes. I sometimes tag players as terri-bad fish after 2 hands, sometimes i have to change this read, but more often it is correct.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Will that not work against me if I ever get to move up the stakes? I assume everyone knows how to play as they have found a poker site and have deposited real money to play with.

How would I go about changing my thought process then? Do I just treat everyone as if they have no clue what they are doing? Value bet TP all the time? I have no idea how to get around this?

at the micro-est of stakes you learn how to implement the basics and win some $$. You learn how to extract $$ from uber-fish. You learn to identify player types, you learn to play tight ranges from early position and loosen up in later position, you learn how to value bet, you learn how to fold to heavy resistance from players who don't seem like maniacs. These skills will always be valuable, and help form a solid foundation for your poker life.

Originally Posted by Stacks

I just assume everyone sucks because I've been doing this for a while now and I still suck. So unless I've noted you as not sucking, you suck. But maybe I also suck at determining who does and does not suck? That would suck.

identifying HOW they suck is also good i have found myself thinking 'don't give hookers orgasms' more than once in the last month or two of grind. Cheers to spoon for that lasting nugget of wisdom...

Originally Posted by supa

A larger % of players will have greater skill as you move up in stakes. You will have to learn to adjust to that. Generalizing either way is bad which is basically what your doing now. So no, don't assume anything. Let the facts speak for themselves.

In the case of this hand you are assuming that an 87/0 has some understanding of pot odds. This is where you need to change your thought process. This villain is a massive fish and has no clue wtf he is doing. He's as happy chasing an open ender as he is a gutshot.

Read this thread of yours again. http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...on-191629.html This time you have a villain that has shown he'll call with gutshots but you're scared to get the money in because he'll only call with worse. Do you understand how backwards that is? From what I've seen you're making assumptions on villains based on what you think they should do and not what they are capable of doing, even when they've proven what they are capable of doing. If you stop playing yourself and start playing the villain you are going to make money.

That is a really, really good post. Thanks a lot, will try to keep this post in mind from now on.

He could have 87 or QJ and some sets in his range but with 87/0 he was bluffing a biggest range so call is perfectly acceptable i guess.

A 87/0 implies a very passive player - he doesn't like to raise or bet much. In line with this, he's limped pre, called the raise, and then check called two streets. Why would this suddenly change? Fold.

not folding