Quote Originally Posted by mojo
NATO is opposed to Putin, and the ideologies he manifests (totalitarianism and expansionism), not against Russian culture or Russian people.
No, NATO is by its very existence an anti-Russia military alliance. It's the very reason it was created, to oppose the Soviets.

The past decades of open trade and tourism between the West and Russia are proof of the fact that the people of the West want to celebrate Russian culture and its awesome contributions to the world.
Very much true. There certainly was a softening of policy towards Russia after the collapse of the USSR, and this continued after Putin rose to power, at least for a while. There's been rhetoric, but for the most part I brushed it off as mutually beneficial posturing in order to justify large military budgets. I always assumed it suited both parties and that neither actually wanted war.

We can also agree that when the cause of the changing borders is murder and worse... that's fucked up and should not be condoned by anyone.
Agreed. How do borders change without bloodshed? At the ballot. Ukraine is not recognising the right of self determination for the people in the regions that want the borders changed. Bloodshed is inevitable in these circumstances.

Of course, Russia didn't recognise the right of Chechnya to self determination, but Chechnya are not strong enough to fight the Russians. Interestingly, they are now allied to Russia in the fight again Ukraine. Strange. You'd think they'd be allied to Ukraine.

I am not speaking for "The West" or representing anyone but myself.
Fair. I know nobody here condones war, we're all nice guys and it goes without saying. Nobody wants to see war, whether it's them or us being the aggressor. But there's a lot more noise, both here and from the general public, now that Russia is the aggressor. You can see this, right? Was there a Syria thread? I don't remember it.

The Russians were exterminating everyone. They were murdering people in the streets who had their hands tied.
Well I haven't seen footage of this, and I don't really want to seek it out. Still images are not really telling enough of a story, can easily be staged. Not that I think such images are staged, but there's always propaganda when there's war. Further, for it to be genocide, this has to be happening because of direct orders, not because some rogue soldiers went crazy as they retreated. You can't just throw the word "genocide" around like Twitter throws the word "racist" around. You need evidence not just of atrocities, but also that it's policy.

I don't use the phrase "ethnic cleansing" lightly when I talk about the Chagos Islands. It was British policy to evict inhabitants of these islands so they could be used as a military base. That's ethnic cleansing. On the other hand, our actions in Iraq caused a refugee crisis, people fleeing war. That wasn't the intent, so this isn't ethnic cleansing. You have to be careful how you use these words. Same with "war criminal".

I'm going to go with, "You choose not to fire weapons at civilians, no matter where the enemy hides."
Yeah, this isn't how war works though. With this policy, you actively encourage the enemy to use civilians as a shield. Our bombs hit hospitals and schools. Do you think our missiles aren't that accurate? Or do you suppose the enemy was using these places as a base and we did what we felt was necessary?

You don't get to claim you're the good guys fighting the bad guys when you go shooting at civvies, man.
It's bad guys fighting bad guys. Nearly every war is. It doesn't surprise me that people use civilians as a human shield, and it doesn't surprise me that these civilians end up hurt. It saddens me a great deal, but doesn't surprise me.

We can't both be the bad guys.
Sadly we are.

As for war crimes, they happen in every war. The vast majority of people who commit war crimes do not face justice. That's just how it is. Nothing will change that. The international courts will only prosecute those they have the motivation to prosecute, which is why the likes of Blair will never see the inside of an international court.