**** Elections thread *****

[OngBonga]

I'm not making up terms to suit my purpose, more making up terms through ignorance of what the correct term is. But I feel I have to point out that, while I cite Switzerland as an example of both a nation with more democracy than the UK, and a successful European nation outside of the EU, I'm no expert in Swiss affairs. I don't know why they don't use direct democracy for all matters, but I am aware they have lots of referendums. Switzerland works, their standard of living is higher than ours.

Honestly, if I'm expected to be an expert about subjects I wish to discuss, I wouldn't be in a position to discuss anything, and neither would anyone else here, with perhaps a few exceptions (mojo and physics). I feel like you're setting the bar too high for me here.

[boost]

Honestly, if I'm expected to be an expert about subjects I wish to discuss, I wouldn't be in a position to discuss anything, and neither would anyone else here...

I agree wholeheartedly.

I'm not making up terms to suit my purpose, more making up terms through ignorance of what the correct term is. But I feel I have to point out that, while I cite Switzerland as an example of both a nation with more democracy than the UK, and a successful European nation outside of the EU, I'm no expert in Swiss affairs. I don't know why they don't use direct democracy for all matters, but I am aware they have lots of referendums. Switzerland works, their standard of living is higher than ours.

This is the issue. Being ignorant of the terms and concepts is fine. And intuitively overvaluing direct democracy makes sense. But you have ignored my point that representative democracy is not a lesser democracy, the two are simply different forms of democracy, both with pros and cons. Maybe more direct democracy than what is typical in democratic states is ideal, maybe even more than Switzerland. Maybe it's highly situational and the ideal will be different from place to place-- from culture to culture. The issue I have is that you remain wedded to this idea that direct democracy is true democracy in the face of arguments to the contrary, without having interacted with those arguments.

[OngBonga]

But you have ignored my point that representative democracy is not a lesser democracy

This is a matter of opinion, expert or not. I don't agree that our "First Past the Post" system is the equal of referendums. USA's idea of democracy is flawed, too. We saw that when Clinton won the popular vote but still lost to Trump.

The issue I have is that you remain wedded to this idea that direct democracy is true democracy in the face of arguments to the contrary, without having interacted with those arguments.

Fair enough. But I stand by my claim that direct democracy is more "pure" than representative democracy. Whether issues such as EU membership should be put to the people is another matter. I think so, but I do get poop's assertion that giving stupid people the same say as clever people has its flaws. It's just the alternatives are less preferable to me.