Trump Is Reality TV, Mueller Is The Wire

[CoccoBill]

Hypothetically, what would convince you that Trump isn't a benevolent 3d-chess playing genius business god? Indictment? Tax returns? IQ test result? Admission on his death bed?

See, I get the feeling nothing would. You NEED to believe, or your world would break. And yes, there are surely symptoms of the same on the "other" side, but no, it isn't exactly the same. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and a claim that somebody, anybody, is a benevolent 3d-chess playing genius business god, especially while talking, acting and having the background of allegations as he does, definitely qualifies as extraordinary.

The problem for the pro-Trump side of the debate is, that he can certainly be a successful businessman with above average intellect, and all the criticisms against him can still be valid. On the other hand, to believe all his moves are part of a grand scheme, where he's quietly puppet-mastering everything behind the facade knowing wtf he's doing, requires him to be all that. Occam's razor, folks.

What would convince me then? Evidence. Not anecdotal, not circular logic, the hard kind. Let's hear him, just once or twice say something smart unscripted, surely he must be capable of that. Lay out his plans or opinions regarding some issue, that clearly demonstrates deep understanding. Show his tax records for the past years, if he's been steadily successful I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and not think he's in it just as a publicity stunt to boost his businesses.

[BananaStand]

Hypothetically, what would convince you that Trump isn't a benevolent 3d-chess playing genius business god? Indictment? Tax returns? IQ test result? Admission on his death bed?

You're putting words in my mouth.

See, I get the feeling nothing would. You NEED to believe, or your world would break

You WISH this was true.

And yes, there are surely symptoms of the same on the "other" side, but no, it isn't exactly the same.

Right, the claims against Trump lack credibility in the form of evidence.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof,

A presidential candidate striking a clandestine arrangement with a foreign power to subvert the interests of the United States for something as trivial as hacked emials...is an EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM. Where's the proof?

and a claim that somebody, anybody, is a benevolent 3d-chess playing genius business god, especially while talking, acting and having the background of allegations as he does, definitely qualifies as extraordinary.

Again, you're attributing statements to me that I've never made. You've chosen an ridiculous, caricaturized version of my position in order to attack it as ridiculous.

The problem for the pro-Trump side of the debate is, that he can certainly be a successful businessman with above average intellect, and all the criticisms against him can still be valid.

Are you high?? He can't be successful with above average intellect, AND be a "babbling idiot"

On the other hand, to believe all his moves are part of a grand scheme, where he's quietly puppet-mastering everything behind the facade knowing wtf he's doing, requires him to be all that.

Do you have a quote? A link? A citation? Anything to suggest that this is the belief I've expressed??

What would convince me then? Evidence. Not anecdotal, not circular logic, the hard kind.

Ironic and hypocritical.

Let's hear him, just once or twice say something smart unscripted, surely he must be capable of that.

Did you see him at CPAC?

Lay out his plans or opinions regarding some issue, that clearly demonstrates deep understanding.

Has he not done this? Do you really feel like you don't know Trump's position on some key policy issue??

Show his tax records for the past years, if he's been steadily successful

You've accused me, falsely, of being un-convincable and incapable of having a negative opinion of Trump. The same logic applies to his detractors and his tax returns. There is no plausible way where Trump could release tax returns, even perfectly legal ones, and not be shit on. Rachel Maddow can demonstrate this for you.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and not think he's in it just as a publicity stunt to boost his businesses.

at least that's sensible. The notion that a man who is already a wildly successful billionaire would endure the cost, stress, and public scrutiny that comes with being President, just to give himself a little tax break, is insane

[CoccoBill]

You're putting words in my mouth.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought that's ok since you keep doing it yourself. In what way does that mischaracterize your position?

You WISH this was true.

No I don't, why would I.

A presidential candidate striking a clandestine arrangement with a foreign power to subvert the interests of the United States for something as trivial as hacked emials...is an EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM. Where's the proof?

I believe that's the point of the investigation this thread is about.

Again, you're attributing statements to me that I've never made. You've chosen an ridiculous, caricaturized version of my position in order to attack it as ridiculous.

Which part do you think is ridiculous? That he is benevolent? That he plays "3D chess", as in manipulates his adversaries and the public by anticipating their moves and being constantly a step ahead? That he is exceptionally intelligent? That he is exceptionally successful in business? I thought those were exactly your position.

Are you high?? He can't be successful with above average intellect, AND be a "babbling idiot"

No I am not. Are you retarded?

Do you have a quote? A link? A citation? Anything to suggest that this is the belief I've expressed??

I'm not gonna start going through your posts to tell you what you've said. If you're saying you don't think he knows wtf he's doing, the way he's portraying himself isn't just a facade and he doesn't have a clear plan, I'll apologize and agree.

Ironic and hypocritical.

Ironic definitely, but I don't see any hypocrisy on my part.

Did you see him at CPAC?

No. Was it unscripted/unrehearsed? Is that the only instance you can point at from his life of 70 years?

Has he not done this? Do you really feel like you don't know Trump's position on some key policy issue??

No, he hasn't. Having a position doesn't equal deep understanding, in fact most of his positions, at least on the surface, demonstrate a lack of understanding to me.

You've accused me, falsely, of being un-convincable and incapable of having a negative opinion of Trump. The same logic applies to his detractors and his tax returns. There is no plausible way where Trump could release tax returns, even perfectly legal ones, and not be shit on. Rachel Maddow can demonstrate this for you.

I was talking about what would convince me, Maddow or anyone else is not relevant. I also acknowledged right from the start, that the same symptoms can be seen on anti-Trumps. But, I went further and said these aren't 1:1 comparable, since one stance requires a more extraordinary premise to be possible. And I do hate reiterating myself.

at least that's sensible. The notion that a man who is already a wildly successful billionaire would endure the cost, stress, and public scrutiny that comes with being President, just to give himself a little tax break, is insane

You do see the circular logic here which presupposes that he was already swimming in money and had no incentive to get more? I don't know of many millionaires or billionaires who come to suddenly think ok that's it, I don't need to amass any more wealth, so even if he truly were a net billionaire that wouldn't mean he doesn't have an incentive to acquire more. All of the information seems to point that his campaign and his presidency have been very lucrative for him.

https://www.economist.com/news/busin...ump-monetising

So what do you think then, he's enduring the cost, stress, and public scrutiny that comes with being President, just to selflessly MAGA? Perfectly befitting of his character, right? Is that what you keep repeating in bed at night to be able to sleep? You see, If I turn out to be wrong about Trump I'll shrug my shoulders and go hmmh, how about that? If on the other you're wrong, maaaan. That's gonna leave a mark.

[BananaStand]

Oh I'm sorry, I thought that's ok since you keep doing it yourself. In what way does that mischaracterize your position?

Stay tuned, we'll get to that.

No I don't, why would I.

So the baseless and insulting accusations that you've leveled would be credible.

I believe that's the point of the investigation this thread is about.

Why does the investigation exist?

Which part do you think is ridiculous?

Now we'll answer your first question about how you've mis-characterized my statements.

That he is benevolent?

That's not a word I've ever used. But sure, I'd say Trump means well.

That he plays "3D chess", as in manipulates his adversaries and the public by anticipating their moves and being constantly a step ahead?

More words in my mouth. You won't find any of my posts using the phrase "3D-chess". You wont' find me claiming that Trump's gaffes are really strategic plays in disguise.

That he is exceptionally intelligent? That he is exceptionally successful in business? I thought those were exactly your position.

Yes, and those positions are supported by facts.

The position that you seem to have ridiculously attributed to me is one of constant, blind, unthinking Trump-apologism. You seem to be claiming that I will blindly accept any Trump policy (which is demonstrably untrue), or that I will confirmation-bias myself into believing everything he does is genius (also patently false).

I think most of Trump's policies are good. I think Trump has extremely potent executive skills. I believe he possesses incredible intellect; assuming we define intellect correctly as simply "the ability to acquire skills and knowledge". I see that some people here insist on slicing and dicing that definition into "business intelligence" and "political intelligence" and umpteen other categories just so they can cherry pick which kinds of intelligence are important. Just because I think that's a totally retarded thought process, doesn't mean that I espouse the extreme opposite thinking of worshiping Trump as some kind of infallible genius.

No I am not. Are you retarded?

It's one or the other. You say that someone who you admit is intelligent can be validly criticized for being unintelligent. That's either the misguided ramblings of a drug-induced stupor. Or I'm retarded for not understanding how a lifetime of demonstrated success doesn't prove that you're successful.

I'm not gonna start going through your posts to tell you what you've said. If you're saying you don't think he knows wtf he's doing, the way he's portraying himself isn't just a facade and he doesn't have a clear plan, I'll apologize and agree.

I think he knows wtf he is doing. I'm basing that opinion on his lifetime of business success, his incredible campaign victory, and a year+ of favorable results as this country's Chief Executive. If you would like to claim that he doesn't know wtf he's doing, feel free to provide some facts, evidence, or solid logic to support that claim.

I don't think he's portraying himself disingenuously. I don't believe he's even capable of creating a facade. I believe he expresses his true opinions, and doesn't apologize for them. His statements and behavior reflect his beliefs. There are exceptions. For example, I believe he's pandering when he says he's pro-life. But that's hardly enough describe his character as "a facade". If you would like to claim that he's a complete phony, then feel free to provide some facts, evidence, or solid logic to support that claim.

And I do think he has a clear plan. He wants low taxes. He wants America-first trade policies. He wants a wall. He wants tough stances on Iran and NoKo. He wants to stop terrorists. He wants to repeal and replace Obamacare. The guy talks into cameras and tweets constantly. Are you really saying you don't know his positions on key policy issues? If you would like to claim that he hasn't been clear on a particular issue or initiative, then feel free to provide some facts, evidence, or solid logic to support that claim.

Ironic definitely, but I don't see any hypocrisy on my part.

Really? You claimed that you are only convinced of things through evidence. Yet every one of your positions seems to eschew known facts. What do you think hypocrisy means?

No. Was it unscripted/unrehearsed? Is that the only instance you can point at from his life of 70 years?

Of course it's not the only instance. That's just the best example from the last few days. And alot of it was unscripted. Honestly dude, you gotta understand that CNN is NEVER EVER EVER going to come on and say "President Trump gave a very coherent and charismatic speech today". But that doesn't mean that he's actually never been coherent and charismatic.

No, he hasn't. Having a position doesn't equal deep understanding, in fact most of his positions, at least on the surface, demonstrate a lack of understanding to me.

More vague claims totally unsubstantiated with evidence, logic, or even an anecdote. Cmon man. What you really mean to say here is that you disagree with Trump on these issues. Step out of your own echo chamber and maybe you'll realize that people with different opinions ALSO understand issues.

I was talking about what would convince me, Maddow or anyone else is not relevant.

Maddow has Trump's tax return. She put it on TV. It shows that he made money, and that he paid taxes. Why are you not convinced?

I also acknowledged right from the start, that the same symptoms can be seen on anti-Trumps. But, I went further and said these aren't 1:1 comparable, since one stance requires a more extraordinary premise to be possible. And I do hate reiterating myself.

Jesus man...what happened to 'occam's razor'??

A successful business man becoming successful in politics is a MORE extraordinary premise than an incompetent, corrupt, uninformed, racist, sexist, xenophobic, fascist being successful at anything??? Is that really what you're saying here? I'll ask again. ARE YOU HIGH??

You do see the circular logic here which presupposes that he was already swimming in money and had no incentive to get more?

You're definitely high. Do you really think that Trump doesn't have umpteen better ways to make money than by becoming President??

I don't know of many millionaires or billionaires who come to suddenly think ok that's it, I don't need to amass any more wealth

Are you kidding me? This happens ALL THE TIME. One obvious example is that lottery winners inevitably stop playing the lottery after they win. A more practical example is when people refuse to invest in growth because they are averse to the risk. I once worked for a small company, owned by a millionaire, who told me point blank "this is it. I'm not growing the company any more. It makes enough money for me to be happy, and I'm not taking any extra risks with expansion." He decided he'd been 'successful enough'. So it's totally plausible that a 70 year old billionaire just doesn't' see the need to invest in new real-estate, or start new ventures, in order to support his lifestyle. At some point you can't spend the incremental money you make. So the incentive is lost.

, so even if he truly were a net billionaire that wouldn't mean he doesn't have an incentive to acquire more. All of the information seems to point that his campaign and his presidency have been very lucrative for him.

This is pure insanity. As I said, Trump has umpteen better ways to make money. He didn't have to become president just to sell a few more hotel rooms. Jeeeeeezus.

So what do you think then, he's enduring the cost, stress, and public scrutiny that comes with being President, just to selflessly MAGA?

I wouldn't call it 'selfless'. I think he's a patriot. I think he believes that he has all the skills and ideas necessary to be a strong leader for the country. But like anyone who ascends to that position, personal ambition has a lot do with it too.

Perfectly befitting of his character, right? Is that what you keep repeating in bed at night to be able to sleep? You see, If I turn out to be wrong about Trump I'll shrug my shoulders and go hmmh, how about that? If on the other you're wrong, maaaan. That's gonna leave a mark.

Again, you seem to have marked me as some kind of out of control Trump fan-boy who recites brainwashing mantras in his sleep. I don't know where you got that idea. Yes I support Trump alot on these boards, but I'm quite sure that I've explained what evidence, facts, and logic I am using to reach those positions. If the evidence, facts, or logic changes, then so will my position.

What I will not do is espouse a position, or even remain agnostic in a way that defies the known, objectively true facts.

My reaction to being wrong would be similar to yours. I truly do not understand how you have possibly mistaken me as someone who would lose their minds at an unfavorable political outcome. But just so you're educated for the future....this is what those people look like:

[Poopadoop]

Can't be bothered to sit through his whole schtick at CPAC. Just looks like more of his old campaign demagoguery to me.




Not sure how 'coherent' that is. Though I'll grant he's charismatic I don't see that as necessarily a virtue for a president.

[Poopadoop]

There's plenty of examples of him being completely incoherent if not off his rocker

[Poopadoop]

[BananaStand]

Can't be bothered to sit through his whole schtick at CPAC.

Right, you just like the blooper reel because that's the only thing that's allowed inside your liberal echo chamber

Just looks like more of his old campaign demagoguery to me.

Wrong. But I'm actually glad liberals think this. Keep thinking it.

CPAC is for the conservative conservatives. It's the wing of the party that likes to lick Mitt Romney's balls. Trump was deemed "too controversial" for this event in 2016. Now he fucking owns these people. That should scare the boogers out of any democrat planning to run in 2020.

Not sure how 'coherent' that is. Though I'll grant he's charismatic I don't see that as necessarily a virtue for a president.

Here on planet earth, charisma is almost always a requisite for leadership.

[CoccoBill]

That's not a word I've ever used. But sure, I'd say Trump means well.

1/4

More words in my mouth. You won't find any of my posts using the phrase "3D-chess". You wont' find me claiming that Trump's gaffes are really strategic plays in disguise.

Ok, 1/4

Yes, and those positions are supported by facts.

3/4. So 3 of the 4 key elements I said were spot on, where is the ridiculous caricature you were talking about a second ago?

The position that you seem to have ridiculously attributed to me is one of constant, blind, unthinking Trump-apologism. You seem to be claiming that I will blindly accept any Trump policy (which is demonstrably untrue), or that I will confirmation-bias myself into believing everything he does is genius (also patently false).

Fine, so I guess you're only 75% a blind, unthinking Trump-apologist.

I think most of Trump's policies are good. I think Trump has extremely potent executive skills. I believe he possesses incredible intellect; assuming we define intellect correctly as simply "the ability to acquire skills and knowledge". I see that some people here insist on slicing and dicing that definition into "business intelligence" and "political intelligence" and umpteen other categories just so they can cherry pick which kinds of intelligence are important. Just because I think that's a totally retarded thought process, doesn't mean that I espouse the extreme opposite thinking of worshiping Trump as some kind of infallible genius.

This may be news to you, but there are numerous different modalities of intelligence. Emotional intelligence (inter and intrapersonal), for example, is the one that has a high correlation with business success.

It's one or the other. You say that someone who you admit is intelligent can be validly criticized for being unintelligent. That's either the misguided ramblings of a drug-induced stupor. Or I'm retarded for not understanding how a lifetime of demonstrated success doesn't prove that you're successful.

Speaking of putting words in mouths, wanna point where I say that?

I think he knows wtf he is doing. I'm basing that opinion on his lifetime of business success, his incredible campaign victory, and a year+ of favorable results as this country's Chief Executive. If you would like to claim that he doesn't know wtf he's doing, feel free to provide some facts, evidence, or solid logic to support that claim.

Everything he says and how he acts.

I don't think he's portraying himself disingenuously. I don't believe he's even capable of creating a facade. I believe he expresses his true opinions, and doesn't apologize for them. His statements and behavior reflect his beliefs. There are exceptions. For example, I believe he's pandering when he says he's pro-life. But that's hardly enough describe his character as "a facade". If you would like to claim that he's a complete phony, then feel free to provide some facts, evidence, or solid logic to support that claim.

I agree, including the exceptions. Exceptions though kinda nullify the rule, not make it. I don't think he's knowingly dumbing down his vocabulary or presenting himself as goofy or aloof, I trust that to be largely his real persona. He's probably no more phony than most career politicians.

Really? You claimed that you are only convinced of things through evidence. Yet every one of your positions seems to eschew known facts. What do you think hypocrisy means?

This is why it's so frustrating talking to you. You do 2 things in every conversation, assume what opinions everyone else holds, and spit your paci out of the pram complaining how others do that to you. But please, go ahead, what are my positions?

Of course it's not the only instance. That's just the best example from the last few days. And alot of it was unscripted. Honestly dude, you gotta understand that CNN is NEVER EVER EVER going to come on and say "President Trump gave a very coherent and charismatic speech today". But that doesn't mean that he's actually never been coherent and charismatic.

I'm not looking for CNN's opinion on what is charismatic or coherent, I'm asking you where he has said something that shows he's intelligent, where it's not a speech written by someone else. For the most successful businessman who's been winning in everything for decades, it shouldn't be that hard, right?

More vague claims totally unsubstantiated with evidence, logic, or even an anecdote. Cmon man. What you really mean to say here is that you disagree with Trump on these issues. Step out of your own echo chamber and maybe you'll realize that people with different opinions ALSO understand issues.

You asked if I haven't seen convincing policy plans from him, which I haven't. Now you want me to show proof for my opinions? I do disagree with him with many of his policies, but that's beside the point. You forget or do not realize that most of his policies or political stances have zero effect on me on a practical level. I'm not invested in them, or against them. I'm not the one shitting my pants about them coming for my guns or my job or stealing my taxes. If "holy shit, that stupid douche is actually being voted in by a bunch of stupid douches, lol they're so screwed" is an echo chamber, then yeah, I guess I'm in it. Or could be that you're in one.

Maddow has Trump's tax return. She put it on TV. It shows that he made money, and that he paid taxes. Why are you not convinced?

Maddow released his form 1040 (his personal taxes, nothing to do with his companies) from 2005. That alone does not tell anything, why on earth should I be convinced?

Jesus man...what happened to 'occam's razor'??

A successful business man becoming successful in politics is a MORE extraordinary premise than an incompetent, corrupt, uninformed, racist, sexist, xenophobic, fascist being successful at anything??? Is that really what you're saying here? I'll ask again. ARE YOU HIGH??

No I'm not, and I'll ask you again, are you retarded?

Sociopathic tendencies are vastly over-represented in executive positions in business, there would be nothing extraordinary about that. Likely his largest business successes have been being born into a rich family and carrying on the family real estate business. Being elected the POTUS carries no formal requirements, he doesn't need to have a certain level of education or experience, doesn't need to pass an entrance exam or aptitude test, all he needs to do is be charismatic and strike the right chords in a large enough part of the population. He managed to do that largely due to timing, since a lot of poor white folks were disenchanted due to the 2008 recession, manufacturing jobs being either eliminated or outsourced, a black guy being the president, LGBTQetc and women's rights being front and center in the discourse. The seeds of what happened were really sown by the tea party movement.

You're definitely high. Do you really think that Trump doesn't have umpteen better ways to make money than by becoming President??

Are you really that stupid? Who wouldn't want to be the one who decides the rules of the game? He can both leverage massively favorable foreign deals in his position and directly cut his own taxes. Like wtf would be the umpteen better ways? You didn't read the Economist article I linked, did you?

Are you kidding me? This happens ALL THE TIME. One obvious example is that lottery winners inevitably stop playing the lottery after they win. A more practical example is when people refuse to invest in growth because they are averse to the risk. I once worked for a small company, owned by a millionaire, who told me point blank "this is it. I'm not growing the company any more. It makes enough money for me to be happy, and I'm not taking any extra risks with expansion." He decided he'd been 'successful enough'. So it's totally plausible that a 70 year old billionaire just doesn't' see the need to invest in new real-estate, or start new ventures, in order to support his lifestyle. At some point you can't spend the incremental money you make. So the incentive is lost.

Lottery winners aren't businessmen most of the time, I'd wager. I would have used maybe Bill Gates and Warren Buffett as examples, but the undeniable point is, that the vast majority of businesses never decide they have enough money. Your claim was that because he's successful he wouldn't have incentive to gain more, which is demonstrably and obviously utter rubbish.

This is pure insanity. As I said, Trump has umpteen better ways to make money. He didn't have to become president just to sell a few more hotel rooms. Jeeeeeezus.

There there, wipe the foam off your cheeks so we can continue.

I wouldn't call it 'selfless'. I think he's a patriot. I think he believes that he has all the skills and ideas necessary to be a strong leader for the country. But like anyone who ascends to that position, personal ambition has a lot do with it too.

I would characterize him as the exact opposite of selfless.

Again, you seem to have marked me as some kind of out of control Trump fan-boy who recites brainwashing mantras in his sleep. I don't know where you got that idea. Yes I support Trump alot on these boards, but I'm quite sure that I've explained what evidence, facts, and logic I am using to reach those positions. If the evidence, facts, or logic changes, then so will my position.

But that's the thing, most of what I've seen have been anecdotal evidence, questionable facts and circular logic, which require the viewer to be watching the same movie for them to make sense. What is abundantly clear though, is that you have zero intention or will to learn anything or challenge your base beliefs in any way, since all critique or opposing views just end up being spat on and ridiculed. If I were looking for that I'd go to places where stupid people go.

My reaction to being wrong would be similar to yours.

I have a hard time believing that just based on the amount of caps in all of your posts on these issues.

But just so you're educated for the future....this is what those people look like:

Yeah it'd be much better if they looked like this:



On a serious note about your photo, what's wrong with them? Hell I wish there was an issue that got young people here out on the streets, at least they give a shit.

[OngBonga]

I just want to be clear I'm not calling anyone in this thread a cunt.

Not unless you like cats more than dogs.

That wasn't a thinly veiled "left vs right" analogy, not directly. I just genuinely think there's something wrong with people who prefer cats to dogs.

[BananaStand]

where is the ridiculous caricature you were talking about a second ago?

I explained that in vivid detail. If you're going to choose to ignore certain information that doesn't fit your argument....well then I can see why you're wrong so much.

Fine, so I guess you're only 75% a blind, unthinking Trump-apologist.

A completely baseless and incendiary accusation. Does that make you feel better to say that? Do you feel like a big boy now?

This may be news to you, but there are numerous different modalities of intelligence. Emotional intelligence (inter and intrapersonal), for example, is the one that has a high correlation with business success.

It's not news to me. What also shouldn't be news is that i flat out refuse to go down that rabbit hole. I'm defining intelligence as "the ability to acquire skills and knowledge". In that regard, Trump has an extremely high aptitude. There's no plausible way he could be where he is, if he didn't possess an extremely high level of intelligence.

Furthermore, he can push a button on his desk and, within seconds, have a dozen experts on any subject ready to educate him on anything he could ever need or want to know. In that context, he's the smartest person on the planet.

Speaking of putting words in mouths, wanna point where I say that?

Right here

The problem for the pro-Trump side of the debate is, that he can certainly be a successful businessman with above average intellect, and all the criticisms against him can still be valid.

See

Everything he says and how he acts.

That's a pathetic dodge. You're accusing an extraordinarily successful person who currently holds the highest office on earth of "not knowing what he's doing". When asked to substantiate that argument in even the slightest way, your answer is "duh, everything". Let me know when you want to have an adult conversation.

This is why it's so frustrating talking to you. You do 2 things in every conversation, assume what opinions everyone else holds, and spit your paci out of the pram complaining how others do that to you.

I don't believe I've made any assumptions. I've responded to your own words in explicit detail.

But please, go ahead, what are my positions?

You summed it up pretty well in the last paragraph of post #173. You believe that Trump is incompetent as a politician, lacks understanding of the issues, communicates poorly, and that his communication skills demonstrate below average cognition. You believe all this despite his status as the living icon of business success and his rising to a political office that's only ever been held by 45 men in the entirety of history. And when challenged on WHY you think this...your response thus far has been "duh everything". And you've defended this position by denigrating and disparaging any other opposing view as symptomatic of being a blind, unthinking, Trump-apologist.

I'm not looking for CNN's opinion on what is charismatic or coherent, I'm asking you where he has said something that shows he's intelligent, where it's not a speech written by someone else. For the most successful businessman who's been winning in everything for decades, it shouldn't be that hard, right?

Again, his CPAC speech from just this week is a prime example of exactly what you're looking for. It's been mentioned a half dozen times now, and you're still acting like the question hasn't been answered.

You asked if I haven't seen convincing policy plans from him, which I haven't.

Incorrect. You just disagree with his policy plans, so you find them unconvincing. This is symptomatic of someone who is stuck in an echo chamber.

Now you want me to show proof for my opinions? I do disagree with him with many of his policies, but that's beside the point

No, that pretty much IS your point. And if you were just honest about that, it would be harder to criticize you. Instead you've decided that anyone who disagrees with you is an unthinking, blind, Trump fan-boy.

If "holy shit, that stupid douche is actually being voted in by a bunch of stupid douches, lol they're so screwed" is an echo chamber, then yeah, I guess I'm in it.

The fact that your thinking starts with the premise that he's "a stupid douche" pretty much PROVES the existence of your echo chamber.

Maddow released his form 1040 (his personal taxes, nothing to do with his companies) from 2005. That alone does not tell anything, why on earth should I be convinced?

You're not even paying attention. You just hear what you want to hear.

Two pages of a tax return should not convince you of much. Though, in the absence of any other evidence to the contrary, it's pretty compelling. More importantly though, the reaction to those two pages should convince you that there is absolutely ZERO upside for Trump to release his tax return. He has absolutely nothing to gain. So criticizing Trump for not releasing his returns, is a demonstration of ignorance.

Sociopathic tendencies are vastly over-represented in executive positions in business, there would be nothing extraordinary about that.

So why are we talking about it? It feels like you're equating sociopathy with corruption, ignorance, racism, sexism, and all that other stuff I listed. That's just wrong.

Likely his largest business successes have been being born into a rich family and carrying on the family real estate business.

Dude.....even the most generous estimates of Trump's 'head start' are no higher than $200 million. He's currently worth 20x to 50x that. The rate of return he would have to earn in order to achieve even the most conservative estimates of his net worth is absolutely phenomenal. Your claim is absurd. The math simply doesn't work.

this is yet another example of you discounting Trump's abilities, in the face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary, just to feed your own echo chamber. Snap out of it!!

Being elected the POTUS carries no formal requirements, he doesn't need to have a certain level of education or experience, doesn't need to pass an entrance exam or aptitude test,

Are you kidding me?? What do you call having every media outlet in the known universe crawl up your ass for a year and half during a presidential campaign?? YOu make it sound like he just filled out a form and kept his fingers crossed.

all he needs to do is be charismatic and strike the right chords in a large enough part of the population. He managed to do that largely due to timing

Huh? You do realize that 17 other people ran at the exact same time, on the exact same platform of lowering taxes, fixing healthcare, and killing terrorists. Right?

I'll cut you some slack on this next one because you're stuck way out there in some shit-hole country that doesn't matter. So maybe you're not keeping your finger on the pulse of american culture. I'm just gonna fix your post here.....

since a lot of poor white folks overtaxed and socially vilified middle class citizens were disenchanted due to the 2008 recession, manufacturing jobs being either eliminated or outsourced, a black guy being the president, LGBTQetc and women's rights being front and center in the discourse Progressive policies that stifled the economy and divided our culture.

There, that's better.

Are you really that stupid? Who wouldn't want to be the one who decides the rules of the game?

because he was doing just fine, better even, with the old rules. There's maybe a .0000000367% chance I could buy into this line of thinking if Trump was like....45 years old. But he's not. He's not going to live very long after he's President. Why try and fuck with the game if you're never going to get to play again??

Lottery winners aren't businessmen most of the time, I'd wager. I would have used maybe Bill Gates and Warren Buffett as examples, but the undeniable point is, that the vast majority of businesses never decide they have enough money. Your claim was that because he's successful he wouldn't have incentive to gain more, which is demonstrably and obviously utter rubbish.

No, my claim was that his personal motivation is diminished by the fact that he has no practical way to enjoy further gains other than the satisfaction of the achievement itself. If someone is extraordinarily driven, and reaches that point, they diversify and seek new challenges in other arenas.....like politics.

There there, wipe the foam off your cheeks so we can continue.

So you're not denying that your position is that Trump went to all the trouble, stress, and triple-digit million dollar expense just so he could sell hotel rooms to secret service agents and foreign entourages.

I would characterize him as the exact opposite of selfless.

How many charitable foundations are named after you Sir?

But that's the thing, most of what I've seen have been anecdotal evidence, questionable facts and circular logic, which require the viewer to be watching the same movie for them to make sense.

I feel like I've cited extensive facts that are NOT questionable or anecdotal. If you dont' understand them, just ask, and I'll be glad to clarify.

What is abundantly clear though, is that you have zero intention or will to learn anything or challenge your base beliefs in any way, since all critique or opposing views just end up being spat on and ridiculed.

No, this is an assumption your making based on a majority of instances. I've explained many times now how I formulate my positions, and whenever I've stated a position, I've been extremely verbose in explaining the facts and logic that support that position. Challenges to those facts come in the form of preachy agnosticism, petty ridicule, and shrugs of "duh...everything"

If I were looking for that I'd go to places where stupid people go.

Like Finland?

I have a hard time believing that just based on the amount of caps in all of your posts on these issues.

Well, if it ever comes out that Trump is not really rich, not really successful, and not really smart, I guess you'll see. Until then you can believe what you want. In the meantime, I'll hang out here in reality where the man OBVIOUSLY has his shit together.

Yeah it'd be much better if they looked like this:

Probably a doctored photo, possibly a joke in poor taste, or maybe even democrats in disguise. Even if it is authentic, I don't believe this photo represents even a slim minority of Trump supporters. However, the photo that I posted most definitely represents a large majority of Trump detractors.

On a serious note about your photo, what's wrong with them?

They're fraudulent. Either that, or ignorant. Possibly both. I say that because the word "racist" is something they are co-opting for shock value and to morally blackmail the other side. I don't believe that any of Trump's policies seek to denigrate or oppress any ethnic group. The examples that have been cited require some logical somersaults. Like the travel-pause that singled out a half dozen notably dangerous countries. To conclude a racist motivation here, you have to do logical somersaults to convince yourself that something that only affects <10% of the muslim population is an attack on ALL muslims. You'd have to ignore the national security concerns cited by virtually every international intelligence agency at our disposal. And you'd have to WANT to believe that Trump is just an evil, islam-hating, racist, xenophobic piece of shit.

I would never deny someone's right to protest. However, the folks in the picture I posted are not protesting. They're simply expressing rage with irrational behavior. It's not the same thing.

[CoccoBill]

I explained that in vivid detail. If you're going to choose to ignore certain information that doesn't fit your argument....well then I can see why you're wrong so much.

Yes, 1 of the 4 points was maybe slightly off. That does not a ridiculous caricature make. In yours or Trump's case it'd make for an exceptionally accurate comment.

A completely baseless and incendiary accusation. Does that make you feel better to say that? Do you feel like a big boy now?

It was your interpretation that the definition describes someone who is a blind, unthinking Trump-apologist. You agreed with 3 out of the 4 points that made that definition. Maybe you shouldn't get so butthurt over making logical observations of your words. And yes, this also is a joke.

It's not news to me. What also shouldn't be news is that i flat out refuse to go down that rabbit hole. I'm defining intelligence as "the ability to acquire skills and knowledge". In that regard, Trump has an extremely high aptitude. There's no plausible way he could be where he is, if he didn't possess an extremely high level of intelligence.

I've noticed you have trouble with word definitions every time it's convenient to your case.

Furthermore, he can push a button on his desk and, within seconds, have a dozen experts on any subject ready to educate him on anything he could ever need or want to know. In that context, he's the smartest person on the planet.

Have you looked at his cabinet? (a joke)
Wouldn't anyone then be the smartest in that position? (not a joke)

You summed it up pretty well in the last paragraph of post #173. You believe that Trump is incompetent as a politician, lacks understanding of the issues, communicates poorly, and that his communication skills demonstrate below average cognition. You believe all this despite his status as the living icon of business success and his rising to a political office that's only ever been held by 45 men in the entirety of history. And when challenged on WHY you think this...your response thus far has been "duh everything". And you've defended this position by denigrating and disparaging any other opposing view as symptomatic of being a blind, unthinking, Trump-apologist.

No, I didn't. I listed things that might convince me on those issues, as of now I'm undecided as should any sane person be based on the available evidence, which is basically all sketchy, anecdotal or hearsay. I have no idea if he's competent as a politician, but most things he say and how he acts don't instill confidence in me. He's shown a lack of understanding over numerous issues. He communicates poorly, unless you're using elementary school grading. He certainly has nailed slogans and branding, as well as having a confident presence, but he has a lot to improve on clarity and diplomatic skills.

Again, his CPAC speech from just this week is a prime example of exactly what you're looking for. It's been mentioned a half dozen times now, and you're still acting like the question hasn't been answered.

Looks to me like it could be any of his campaign rallies. If you consider rambling enthusiastically about his favorite issues signs of intelligence, maybe we should just drop this. I didn't mean by "intelligent" your definition of "being able to acquire skills and knowledge", a hamster would qualify those.

No, that pretty much IS your point. And if you were just honest about that, it would be harder to criticize you. Instead you've decided that anyone who disagrees with you is an unthinking, blind, Trump fan-boy.

My point was that people supporting Trump are more deeply invested in their beliefs, they have more to lose by being proven wrong than those who are against him. Related to those two I consider myself to be in a 3rd group, the outside observers, who have far less skin in the game. You're insistence to not budging one inch and mustering all your energy to ridicule anyone who might in any way question the foundations your beliefs are built on top of IMO demonstrates I'm correct. This is not about my opinions, and my point doesn't change one bit regardless of what they are.

The fact that your thinking starts with the premise that he's "a stupid douche" pretty much PROVES the existence of your echo chamber.

You must think labeling all differing opinions as echo chamber talk must feel convincing to you. It's rare to see that kind of pathos supporting anyone, don't you at all think it's peculiar you're so offended if someone ridicules your supreme leader? I sort of admire the passion though, I can't fathom ever supporting any political figure so strongly, I feel a vast majority of them are either corrupt, stupid douches or both, especially the ones who clearly got to their position just by being famous, such as ex-athletes, actors etc.

Two pages of a tax return should not convince you of much.

Ikr

Dude.....even the most generous estimates of Trump's 'head start' are no higher than $200 million. He's currently worth 20x to 50x that. The rate of return he would have to earn in order to achieve even the most conservative estimates of his net worth is absolutely phenomenal. Your claim is absurd. The math simply doesn't work.

Donald Trump's self-described net worth was $200 million in 1982. If he invested that money in the S&P 500, he'd be worth about $8.3 billion today. He claims his net worth is $8.7 billion.

this is yet another example of you discounting Trump's abilities, in the face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary, just to feed your own echo chamber. Snap out of it!!

We have a very different understanding of irrefutable evidence, but none of this is about my opinion, or me discounting his abilities. All of this is just demonstrating your core beliefs about him aren't as airtight as you make it sound, and you seem to be changing the subject or ignoring it every time it happens. I don't claim he's not a successful businessman, I just don't have the rock hard unquestioning faith that he is as you do.

Are you kidding me?? What do you call having every media outlet in the known universe crawl up your ass for a year and half during a presidential campaign?? YOu make it sound like he just filled out a form and kept his fingers crossed.

What I don't call it is anything resembling an aptitude test, or an exam on political history, foreign and domestic policy or economics. I would rather call it a publicity tour riling up people with hate towards his opposition, the media and promises to bring back obsolete jobs and values.

because he was doing just fine, better even, with the old rules. There's maybe a .0000000367% chance I could buy into this line of thinking if Trump was like....45 years old. But he's not. He's not going to live very long after he's President. Why try and fuck with the game if you're never going to get to play again??

You mean you think he was doing just fine, you don't know that. You know absolutely nothing about his financial situation, his motivations, his aspirations, whether he actually wanted to be the president, does he see himself as aging and about to retire, none of that. You just have a base assumption that he's filthy rich, and everything else follows. And don't get me wrong, you absolutely have the right to do that, and I'm not really even criticizing you, just observing and being mildly amused.

No, my claim was that his personal motivation is diminished by the fact that he has no practical way to enjoy further gains other than the satisfaction of the achievement itself. If someone is extraordinarily driven, and reaches that point, they diversify and seek new challenges in other arenas.....like politics.

That's possible, but it's also possible that he either isn't doing that well financially, or that he definitely still has motivation to gain more wealth and might see running or being the POTUS as also a lucrative deal. And again, these are not my opinions, we possibly will never find out what the real deal is, but only one of us is 100% convinced at the moment.

So you're not denying that your position is that Trump went to all the trouble, stress, and triple-digit million dollar expense just so he could sell hotel rooms to secret service agents and foreign entourages.

I am. The only denying that's going on is you with even the possibility of that being within the realm of possibilities. If you want my opinion (you should ask rather than put words in my mouth if you do), I'd say there at least a low 2-digit chance that the prospect might have had some influence on his decision.

How many charitable foundations are named after you Sir?

Roughly the same amount as DJ:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...dation-n822636

I feel like I've cited extensive facts that are NOT questionable or anecdotal. If you dont' understand them, just ask, and I'll be glad to clarify.

Well feelings are sadly not what I'm looking for. I'll be sure to understand if there's something I don't understand, thanks.

Well, if it ever comes out that Trump is not really rich, not really successful, and not really smart, I guess you'll see. Until then you can believe what you want. In the meantime, I'll hang out here in reality where the man OBVIOUSLY has his shit together.

Good luck with that.

Probably a doctored photo, possibly a joke in poor taste, or maybe even democrats in disguise. Even if it is authentic, I don't believe this photo represents even a slim minority of Trump supporters. However, the photo that I posted most definitely represents a large majority of Trump detractors.

Lol. I had no problem believing people in both the photos were genuine. Isn't it fascinating to you how you without hesitation completely dismiss one of them while having no qualms about the other? Aren't you curious what makes you react like that to two random photos off the net?

They're fraudulent. Either that, or ignorant. Possibly both. I say that because the word "racist" is something they are co-opting for shock value and to morally blackmail the other side. I don't believe that any of Trump's policies seek to denigrate or oppress any ethnic group. The examples that have been cited require some logical somersaults. Like the travel-pause that singled out a half dozen notably dangerous countries. To conclude a racist motivation here, you have to do logical somersaults to convince yourself that something that only affects <10% of the muslim population is an attack on ALL muslims. You'd have to ignore the national security concerns cited by virtually every international intelligence agency at our disposal. And you'd have to WANT to believe that Trump is just an evil, islam-hating, racist, xenophobic piece of shit.

Nowadays being racist doesn't just mean you're KKK, it doesn't require hatred or ill will towards other races. It just means preferential treatment, treating a person differently just based on their skin color. Remember when you joined this board we had this discussion, and at the end you conceded that fine, maybe you are racist if that's the definition? Yeah, by that same metric I don't see it such a leap to call him racist. Not KKK level, perhaps more like grumpy grandpa level. Either way, I find it far far less likely that he is the least racist person anyone's ever met.

I would never deny someone's right to protest. However, the folks in the picture I posted are not protesting. They're simply expressing rage with irrational behavior. It's not the same thing.

Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they're not protesting.