Varchertine's Werewolf Game Thread

[monstrman]

luco... being wuf obviously

I'm so bad with names. I have to admit though being here rereading the game and trying to solve is bringing back the old werewolf spirit a little bit.

[rong]

but that's exactly what it means. every lynch is two players, without exception

you're suggesting it is better that we choose one player to kill and let the other die by surprise instead of choosing which two players are the best to kill.

I don't think anyone is saying this. On fact when anyone looks close getting lynched the partner will always out for self preservation. As the should regardless of role.

[a500lbgorilla]

Rilla declares. Outs Baudib (presumably w/o permish). --Wolfy--

Why's that wolfy?

[a500lbgorilla]

How is this even remotely true. You're talking rubbish.

Agreed. In other games we still get 2 dead for 1 lynch without knowing the partner until the wolves pick 'em.

[monstrman]

:/

Top part is a soft push to reveal. If you want reveal, then say it openly.
Or maybe you're just adding an argument to the pile?
Seems like a distraction.

***
+v point is to gabe's #239

For the record, I don't disagree with wuf's logic. I disagree with his assumptions.

***
Having slept on the whole reveal thing:

I don't care how villagery a wolf's partner is. I don't care if the villager in the V-W pair is the strongest V and the wolf is the weakest W. I can not win as long as that W is alive. Sorry my bro V, but you can't win as long as you're alive.

What assumptions is he making that you disagree with specifically and why?

For the record I agree with your take on the v-w pairings. All wolves must die, and villagers need to be sacrificed to win no matter what so... yeh.

[rong]

Imagine that you had your sights set on a player who you believe to be a wolf 95% of the time. Damn fine read. But you don't know his partner.

Killing him will essentially also kill a random player. Randoms come in at 25% wolves on this fine day 1, meaning your overall tone read accounts for .6 dead wolf EV per corpse.

Now suppose you had some couple-a maybe wolves that you knew were linked. They'd just have to edge out a wolf rate of 3 in 5 each for it to be the better move.

Not revealing links is pro-wolf. If you keep yours a secret, you're hurting the greater cause.

Popular reasons against:

I don't know why we should.
I don't care.
I can't think of any reasons, but everyone should know better.
Man, isn't it like outing seers?

Think on it, friends.

Do the right thing.

This is deliberately misrepresenting the don't reveal argument. This makes me not trust you.

[rong]

Boog has yet to make a single sentence that leads me to believe he's a villager.

I at least agree with you on this.

[monstrman]

I keep looking over the thread and not really being able to come up with a very viable wolf candidate except for maybe some lower volume players

I know that's pretty hypocritical of me, especially, but it's kind of true.

I'm interested to see what BAUDIB has to think about the thread. I can sympathize with his lack of drive to play, though I'm not sure if he's wolfy or villagery in doing so. My initial reaction says it's wolfy for him but then I think about myself and how I've said the same line and now I'm not too sure.

/shrug

lynch baudib

don't really have any stronger candidates and the wuf wagon seems pretty taken care of.

I'll reread luco again in a bit to see what I come up with, maybe throw this vote around a couple more times.

[rong]

Or what if a scenario where the 2nd and 3rd wagons are linked but the village lynches a less optimal 1st choice because they're none the wiser?

This point is valid, but its a risk I'm willing to take.

[monstrman]

I think I'm somewhere like this

THE VILLAGE

Monstrman
BID
Rong
Momo

BIG SCARY BLANK SPACE

most everyone else

IS THIS REALLY WHAT I'M NAMING THIS TIER?

Baudib

FTR I think most of momo's analysis/questioning of the thread has rang pretty true for me, so that's why he's up there.

[a500lbgorilla]

All my points are valid. You just don't like how they feel in your gut.

[a500lbgorilla]

This is deliberately misrepresenting the don't reveal argument. This makes me not trust you.

What is the don't reveal argument, then?

[monstrman]

I think the mechanical talk behind revealing and not revealing your pairings could be a good way for wolves to blend in so they don't have to talk about making reads

That said I don't particularly find a500 wolfy. I bet you a wolf prolly just made a passing comment on it or blindly agreed with some villager somewhere.

I'm prolly just wrong entirely tho

[rong]

na uhh, I think they're wrong.

Any who....


I.mistrust rilla, loco, boog and bid most. At the moment I'd be ok with seeing a wagon pick up on any of those.

Don't see anything wolfy about wuf yet.

[a500lbgorilla]

na uhh, I think they're wrong.

Just go ahead and tell me why.

I'll boil it down to two points:

*We gain information. We can now take into account the "wolf" kill ahead of time. Objectively good.

*The wolves gain no useable information. They knew every mislynch once they each shared their partners.

[Luco]

LOOK WHAT I FOUND ON THE INTERNET



THIS IS AN ACTUAL VIDEO GAME

[a500lbgorilla]

And besides, doesn't Archer name drop ISIS and out his fellow spies all the time. JKDS wants it this way.

[monstrman]

Wuf seems to have devoted many paragraphs to detailed explanations of the theory behind lynching players that have revealed their partners and lynching players that have not revealed their partners.

That being said, I somewhat sort of agree with his stance in a way, but I think he has a somewhat nonsensical way of going about it. I agree with the take that we can't just lynch someone and then SURPRISE some random other person we weren't aware was going to die is dead! Because that would just be hemorrhaging ev. HOWEVER, prolly most often the only time someone should be claiming their partner is when they are under threat of lynch, and preferably with enough time left in the day to talk about the merits behind this and to see whether or not their partner agrees with them getting lynched.

I agree with rascal in that it gives the wolves more information than they already have, but at the same time the village needs as much information as possible anyway. I mean I just really can't see lynching someone without knowing who their partner is.

[Keybored]

BID...How do you explain your actions here?
1) The flip/flop btwn Post #51 and #54 (5-mins apart).
2) Barely halfway thru d1, choosing not to discuss "outing" with the village but doing so.
3) Outing your partner without permission.
4) Buttering you partner whom you've obv offended.

Post #38:

Everyone should state their character name from the TV show theme. As well as who their lover is.

Lead by example, bitch.

Post #51

I don't want to lead by example yet because:
1) I don't want to piss off my 'lover' without his input
2) I want feedback from other players first, too.

Post #54

My partner is MMM.

Consent not given

hahaha <3

I'm in a shitty spot since I'm already outed.

I agree with everything MMM said. Best team evar!

[Keybored]

Why's that wolfy?

You made an independent and very important decision to lead the wagon of Outting everyone midway thru d1 and without any discussion among the village. Snap decisions of such magnitude are not in the best interest of the collective. Therefore, it's wolfy behavior IMO. Not gaining partner's approval is further incrimination.

[a500lbgorilla]

Not gaining partner's approval is further incrimination.

Walk me through this one.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Hey mojo, is it my turn to be the 'detestable specimen' this game?

I am quite certain that I not only apologized, but also admitted that I was the detestable specimen in that scenario.

Bloody arrogance

I was then, and you are now.



This in response to my suggestion that you place a vote:

If you think I'm following your advice after your disgusting behaviour last game you're sorely mistaken

You're conflating what I did last game, with what I said after the game was over.

And suggesting that you place a vote in WW is hardly my advice.
I'm shocked it's not your own advice.


FWIW: I have apologized to wuf privately, and I would do so again if I thought he didn't believe I am genuinely sorry.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I don't understand this logic. What recent mistake by BID made all this so obvious?

Figure out who the wolves are, and then read "Night Watch (N1)".

Wolf Chat:
http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/Vv9Vjp9DvKRxf


Dead Thread:
http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/FebZaKmAvbK


Night Watch (N1):
http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/fZsvj9fe5n69


Night Watch (N2):
http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/cfbRvKfdpE6q

[monstrman]

Keybored putting in the work I see

looks pretty villagery to me.

This game is ez

[monstrman]

thank you for making my point for me. do you not see how if you believe this, you must also believe it is better for the village to know exactly who we're lynching?

you cant have your cake and eat it too. you cant on the one hand say it's info for the wolves but on the other say it's not info for the village. regardless i dont see how it's much info for the wolves but i do see how it's loads of info for the village. the wolves already know who they're linked to. they won't be caught by surprise. the village is what gains by knowing exactly who's dying when a lynch is reached, not the wolves

lol at the fucking idea y'all have where it's better to have half of our lynches be of unknowns. am i the only sane person here? well and bid. everybody else seems to have lost their brains on the floor

one of these games im going to say only utterly stupid things. then we will win as easy as can be since everybody always disagrees with my points no matter how correct they are. yeah i get a lot of stuff wrong. yeah i rallied hard to lynch the angel the last game. yeah i rallied hard to lynch a reg villager last game. yeah i defended ongwolf last game. but this is a whole different level. i am stating basic facts about how this game functions statistically. this should be the least controversial thing of all time.




my early game reads are always simplistic. early game is when the most reliable reads are things that are overt. this is exactly what got ong lynched d1 last game. it's what got baud lynched d1 when he was a wolf. all d1 lynches have little information behind them and are for the simplistic purposes, like post count or some weird stylistic thing

Figure out who the wolves are, and then read "Night Watch (N1)".

Prolly not gonna read that, no offense. I'll just trust you on this one, I guess.

You don't seem wolfy anyway.

[monstrman]

must have accidentally multiquoted something while rereading

oops.

Oh well.

[gabe]

the only stance i showed on the partner reveal is that i understand why daven and wuf had seperate opinions. i havent made up my mind completely.

ive been trying to think of smart ways for the village to use the reveal. like what if we all agreed it was a net positive but we shouldnt do it quite yet

imagine if no one revealed until we already discussed and decided who we would likely lynch. then we reveal everyone's partner. this way the discussion is more pure and people arent influenced so much by a collateral death of their favorite villager, and more likely to want to peg a wolf

i think on day 1 we dont need to reveal. it just cant help us that much on day 1. but i can see where in the near future we have to have this information public, so we can make good decisions with it

[Keybored]

Walk me through this one.

This game offers us the unique ability to chat with another player. Not using that to its fullest extent is a wasted opp. Having the Outing discussion btwn partners is a solid way to open dialog and then to wolf hunt his ass. Also, like it or not, you're partnered with someone who may or may not get you killed with his foolish actions. We need to be able to talk to our partners if for no other reason than to keep them off the stupid track. Also, as you've already stated, It's imperative that we determine our partner's allegiance. So if V-V is decided (to best extent poss), we have to work with that partner to help hunt. Two heads are better than one. Pissing on your partner w/o bothering to engage with them is counterproductive. A Villager will want to gain an ally. A Wolf won't care, he's already got them. It seems to me that you and BID had already decided in the early hours of d1 that you don't need your partner's help.

[gabe]

i see no changes


is my partner a wolf i ask myself
is life worth living or should i blast myself


thats just the way it is
things'll never be the same



selling crack to the kids, "i gotta get paid!".. thats the way it is

[a500lbgorilla]

This game offers us the unique ability to chat with another player. Not using that to its fullest extent is a wasted opp. Having the Outing discussion btwn partners is a solid way to open dialog and then to wolf hunt his ass. Also, like it or not, you're partnered with someone who may or may not get you killed with his foolish actions. We need to be able to talk to our partners if for no other reason than to keep them off the stupid track. Also, as you've already stated, It's imperative that we determine our partner's allegiance. So if V-V is decided (to best extent poss), we have to work with that partner to help hunt. Two heads are better than one. Pissing on your partner w/o bothering to engage with them is counterproductive. A Villager will want to gain an ally. A Wolf won't care, he's already got them. It seems to me that you and BID had already decided in the early hours of d1 that you don't need your partner's help.

Yes I did. Buadib might be a wolf. And he has yet to make a case otherwise. He can prove himself as a villager in the game thread or try to in PM (as he's already stated he's comfortable with me as a villager). Once I think he's a villager, we can work together.

In the meantime, I found something better to do.

[gabe]

the old way wasnt working so its on us to do what we gotta do to survive




i swear tupac was playing valentines werewolf when he wrote this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wikrv81Fh3I

[Keybored]

And this is why we should have discussed such things...

the only stance i showed on the partner reveal is that i understand why daven and wuf had seperate opinions. i havent made up my mind completely. ive been trying to think of smart ways for the village to use the reveal. like what if we all agreed it was a net positive but we shouldnt do it quite yet. imagine if no one revealed until we already discussed and decided who we would likely lynch. then we reveal everyone's partner. this way the discussion is more pure and people arent influenced so much by a collateral death of their favorite villager, and more likely to want to peg a wolf. i think on day 1 we dont need to reveal. it just cant help us that much on day 1. but i can see where in the near future we have to have this information public, so we can make good decisions with it

I'm not all against Outting. I think it's inevitable too. But we should have been more reserved about it.

[a500lbgorilla]

I'm not suspicious of people who straight up don't want to reveal. I think the principle at work is one of psychological inaction. It's a hard choice; to sit on your mitts and just saying no seems natural. If something goes wrong, it's fate that fucked you. If you choose to move, however, and something goes wrong - you fucked you. People that genuinely thought it over like wuf, monstr and now gabe are null.


I like my villager reads. Ongbonga, BID, Luco. Some guys on the fence right now.

I'm suspicious of anyone who thought it was clearly wrong. Boog and now Keybored. Especially with Keybored's biting posts, that seems like a posture that I sometimes do as a wolf because posting doesn't flow from a place of comfort so maybe psyche yourself up?

[gabe]

put me on your villager lists. im just typical day 1 DGAH gabe and the thoughts ive posted are all village based

[a500lbgorilla]

And this is why we should have discussed such things...

It's only been a discussion. Except for 3 guys who took action because they believed it the best move.

[a500lbgorilla]

put me on your villager lists. im just typical day 1 DGAH gabe and the thoughts ive posted are all village based

I know. Level 3 thinking says I've got to consider it a trap.

I know villagers think like villagers.
You know I've said this.
Since I know you know this, it could be driving your play.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Prolly not gonna read that, no offense. I'll just trust you on this one, I guess.

If you click the link to the wolf chat, and you'll know that one of the wolves was BID.

So read the Night Watch (N1) chat.
It's only 28 posts total.

[monstrman]

I'm not suspicious of people who straight up don't want to reveal. I think the principle at work is one of psychological inaction. It's a hard choice; to sit on your mitts and just saying no seems natural. If something goes wrong, it's fate that fucked you. If you choose to move, however, and something goes wrong - you fucked you. People that genuinely thought it over like wuf, monstr and now gabe are null.


I like my villager reads. Ongbonga, BID, Luco. Some guys on the fence right now.

I'm suspicious of anyone who thought it was clearly wrong. Boog and now Keybored. Especially with Keybored's biting posts, that seems like a posture that I sometimes do as a wolf because posting doesn't flow from a place of comfort so maybe psyche yourself up?

FTR I have no qualms with revealing my partner, I just think the best way to go about it is for people to only reveal under threat of lynch, as I said earlier.

Not even chatting with them lol. I kind of think trying to evaluate my own partner would be too affected by my own personal bias, so I'm comfortable letting the rest of the village take the wheel on that one.

[monstrman]

thank you for making my point for me. do you not see how if you believe this, you must also believe it is better for the village to know exactly who we're lynching?

you cant have your cake and eat it too. you cant on the one hand say it's info for the wolves but on the other say it's not info for the village. regardless i dont see how it's much info for the wolves but i do see how it's loads of info for the village. the wolves already know who they're linked to. they won't be caught by surprise. the village is what gains by knowing exactly who's dying when a lynch is reached, not the wolves

lol at the fucking idea y'all have where it's better to have half of our lynches be of unknowns. am i the only sane person here? well and bid. everybody else seems to have lost their brains on the floor

one of these games im going to say only utterly stupid things. then we will win as easy as can be since everybody always disagrees with my points no matter how correct they are. yeah i get a lot of stuff wrong. yeah i rallied hard to lynch the angel the last game. yeah i rallied hard to lynch a reg villager last game. yeah i defended ongwolf last game. but this is a whole different level. i am stating basic facts about how this game functions statistically. this should be the least controversial thing of all time.




my early game reads are always simplistic. early game is when the most reliable reads are things that are overt. this is exactly what got ong lynched d1 last game. it's what got baud lynched d1 when he was a wolf. all d1 lynches have little information behind them and are for the simplistic purposes, like post count or some weird stylistic thing

put me on your villager lists. im just typical day 1 DGAH gabe and the thoughts ive posted are all village based

Villagery.

And you aren't trying to pocket me either I'montoyourgames.jpg

[monstrman]

WHY DOES MY PHONE DO THIS EVERY GAME

I DON'T WANT THAT QUOTE

[MadMojoMonkey]

put me on your villager lists. im just typical day 1 DGAH gabe and the thoughts ive posted are all village based

-.-

I'm pretty sure this is anti-spew residue from last game.

tentative V-cred.

[Luco]

WHY DOES MY PHONE DO THIS EVERY GAME

I DON'T WANT THAT QUOTE

You gotta go find it and unselect the multiquote button

[MadMojoMonkey]

I am quite interested in the BID/keybored dialoge that key has prompted.

In the meantime, @key: what do you think of boog?

[MadMojoMonkey]

As far as I can tell, boog's post that is most reminiscent of last game is #199.
However, it comes after he caught heat from gabe, to which I responded that boog wasn't asking enough questions.
Also, in 199 boog attacks wuf, who is obviously where my vote lies.

So it could have been cover.

[wufwugy]

righto i think im gonna have to do a giant post explaining my position. i think some understand it already, but i think not revealing is very pro-wolf and i think we're making a big mistake by not doing it. regardless people gonna do what they want

[rong]

Giant post? Try bullet points followed by a short one paragraph conclusion.

[gabe]

Great post rong

Wuf it's not just about revealing or not revealing. We have some possible plays

[baudib]

I'm a villager and I feel as good as I can about Rilla being a villager considering how early it is.

I don't know who is partnered with who yet but my feeling is I'd like to lynch one of the following:

gabe
Wuf
Boog
keybored

barring any objections I could go for a ronk lynch just based on the fact that his recent village games are perfect cover for his wolf game.

I feel good about Rilla and BID being villagers. I feel like I should have more confidence in Ong being a villager, having read him correctly in past games, but I'm not ready to say that. He had a post very early on that I feel was not wolfy in content, but reads the way wolf Ong posts...I'll highlight it later if push comes to shove.

I don't want to lynch Ong today because he's probably as strong a villager as we'll have in this game, and most people are villagers most of the time.

I also feel like I should have a better read on Luco but I'm not sure his pure town tone is quite coming through. I like exactly 1 wolf in Boog-Luco a high % of the time.

[baudib]

Those of you pointing fingers at me, let me remind everyone that my standard game here has been extremely high volume wolf. If i were a wolf masoned with a villager here my first move would be to gain the trust of my partner, not to hold him at arm's length.

If you suspect your partner may be a wolf you must be very careful.

[gabe]

this game is like some shit from se7en

kill a wolf and your own head explodes

[Luco]

WHAT'S IN THE BOX?

[baudib]

Almost everyone in this group is a more-than-capable wolf, there are a few exceptions. But there are more people in this game who can put up solid tone for a game day or two than there are people who make themselves obvious villagers.

I really want Ong, Gabe, Wuf, Monstr and Luco to really clear themselves and lead here.

[wufwugy]

I already see some of you don't want to address this anymore. That's fine, I'm posting this then gonna be done with it

How is this even remotely true. You're talking rubbish.

I don't think what I said is true so much as I was trying to point out the logic behind what others are saying.

In normal games we would jump at the opportunity to know 100% of all deaths beforehand, which necessarily means to me that it is ridiculous to think that we are better off in this game when we know only 50% of who is being lynched.

I don't think anyone is saying this. On fact when anyone looks close getting lynched the partner will always out for self preservation. As the should regardless of role.

THIS is so true, but it's a major reason why not outing is so bad for the village. When a player is on the chopping block, revealing his link is basically a get out of jail free card. There will always be other players who say "hmmm I don't want to lynch the person he's linked to that much" and some of them will get off his wagon. This is an extremely powerful tool for the wolves, and I suspect that some of the wolves may have been vociferous in their disagreement with me precisely because they know how powerful of a tool it is for them to reveal the link to avoid a lynch. This works marginally regardless of who the lynch is, but it works fantastically if a wolf is linked to a player with a strong rep or a player who is considered villagery. On the flip side it can also benefit wolves to not reveal if they are linked to lynchbait. Some players are simply easier lynch targets than others, and the wolves absolutely would not want the village to know they're linked to one of those players because then it makes him easier to lynch

Furthermore, the last thing we want is late-day reveals. They will affect the wagons too much and they are effectively a reset of gameday dynamics. A late reveal changes all the calculus that goes into the lynch since it doubles the number of known deaths with that lynch

I think the mechanical talk behind revealing and not revealing your pairings could be a good way for wolves to blend in so they don't have to talk about making reads

On the contrary, this is exactly the kind of thing we need to get out of the way early. We can't have anywhere close to good reads when we're in the dark about who we're killing

This game is different from normal games because it gives the village 100% knowledge over who dies. Wouldn't we consider this such a powerful tool in normal games if we knew the wolves were only allowed to lynch certain players? We would love this, we would say it's way too imba in favor of the village. Yet here we are in a game where the wolves don't have nom choices and the village has the opportunity to know 100% of deaths beforehand, and crazily we're saying we don't want it

*The wolves gain no useable information. They knew every mislynch once they each shared their partners.

Yep. If the wolves didn't know their partners then it would be imperative that we not reveal our own, but since the wolves know theirs, I don't see what advantage they could get from knowing the others. They already know who is acceptable lynch and who is not. We're the ones opting to shoot in the dark and call it good strategy

imagine if no one revealed until we already discussed and decided who we would likely lynch. then we reveal everyone's partner. this way the discussion is more pure and people arent influenced so much by a collateral death of their favorite villager, and more likely to want to peg a wolf

Everybody is already influenced by their links. How many people so far have bolded their links? None that we know of and I expect nobody will bold their link until the game gets deep.

Furthermore, if we know the links, when somebody does something that looks wolfy towards their link (like stating he's probably a villager for little reason when he's under fire), if we know they're linked then we get to say "duh he's not going to bold his link in a pool of a dozen players or whatever". But if we don't know this, we think this is wolfy behavior

Not revealing just creates problems for us. That's it

This game offers us the unique ability to chat with another player. Not using that to its fullest extent is a wasted opp.

I think this is also anti-village. We should not be thinking that we're gonna get more information out of our links in private chat than in the game thread. If we relegate game time to private chat convos, then we're just wasting information. I am not going to get a better opinion of Hoopy by talking in chat to him than everybody else gets by seeing his opinions in the game thread

The last thing we want is a player to say "my link is villager, trust me. I knows coz I chatty chat him". There is absolutely no way we can evaluate that situation. All of our reads need to be in game because that is where we are going to get the best reads. The only time private chat is pro-village is in a situation like where BID slipped up and told JKDS something meant for the den. I suspect that sort of thing is very rare and I also think it was different in that game since there were talkless nights. This game is full talking all the time and we should use that

I think the principle at work is one of psychological inaction. It's a hard choice; to sit on your mitts and just saying no seems natural. If something goes wrong, it's fate that fucked you. If you choose to move, however, and something goes wrong - you fucked you.

Completely agree with this. I don't think it's the only factor at play, but it's certainly a big one

The results so far bear it out. A quarter of the player pool is bolded on nobody, and almost a third of those who are bolded on somebody, are bolded on a player with a known link: me. With Hoops obv

People are already demonstrating by their behavior that they do not think hidden links is a good idea. The bolds are lackluster and people are not bolding players with unknowns that much. Of the three different pairs that are known, two have gotten zero bolds. Ofc bolding me is super standard for several players d1 (*cough* daven wrongbonga *cough*) and the others don't have any feel for my history (*cough* mmm key, maybe boog since he was absent for years).

I think bolding me and hoopy is easy to do here, and that's why people are doing it





Okay now that that's said, I won't make my case on this anymore, but I'm doing this because I think it's a huge mistake to not reveal. Obviously people are going to choose to reveal in their own time, but like I said earlier, I think that's a huge huge plus for the wolves. It's a get out of jail free card if they can reveal a player people don't want to lynch at the right time.

I'm also a little reluctant to push as hard for reveal as I otherwise would because god knows that if it happens because of me and we lose, I'll never hear the end of it. In that case there would be no way to know if it was the right choice, but we would definitely know that I was the one who pushed for it.

I think everybody should reveal ASAP so we can actually know who we're lynching d1 instead of hoping we're not lynching somebody we don't want. Regardless I think everybody is going to see the light on this issue the moment it causes problems, either by changing lateday dynamics too much or killing a player people didn't want lynched. Of course at the way things are going I'll only get to shake my head in the dead thread

[baudib]

Wuf, who do you want to lynch?

[baudib]

Having read Wuf's latest post, I'm in favor of revealing partners, especially since mine is already out there.

[baudib]

Still haven't seen a post from Gabe that indicated any wolf-hunting or a pro-village sentiment.

[baudib]

lynch gabe

[baudib]

With the special onus of having played more games with Monstr and Lilrascal than anyone else here, I'm sorry to say I can't do anything stronger than put Rascal in the null category. I have Monstr as slightly greater than rand to be a villager, and feel like he'll make himself obvious enough in short order.

I've not seen Rascal wolf in long games other than 1 time in a mash, and he has plenty of posts but all of them are about the mechanics and strategy of the reveal and nothing about the alignment of any players.

[MadMojoMonkey]

the others don't have any feel for my history (*cough* mmm key, maybe boog since he was absent for years).

I believe (but I could be mistaken) that wuf has either played in or modded every game of WW I've ever played or modded.

What are you on about here?

FWIW, wuf's sheer bravado at holding on to controversial viewpoints is damn American of him.

[MadMojoMonkey]

B lynch gabe /B

Have you ever seen gabe so comfortable/playful as to post song lyrics?

The energy in those 2pac lyrics was definitely villager energy.

[monstrman]

Those of you pointing fingers at me, let me remind everyone that my standard game here has been extremely high volume wolf. If i were a wolf masoned with a villager here my first move would be to gain the trust of my partner, not to hold him at arm's length.

If you suspect your partner may be a wolf you must be very careful.

Why couldn't you be a wolf masoned with a wolf?

Is that not a thing that can happen?

[monstrman]

And it's kind of odd that's literally the first post you make.

I mean I know you're a high-volume wolf but everyone has their low volume games

I'm not just gonna let you off the hook when you call me a villager this time. You just seem kinda... backgroundy. Way moreso than I'm used to from you. I don't feel ANY WIM and I feel like there would be a little more if you were a villager.

I mean no offense and it's not a crime or anything I just think you're a wolf.

[monstrman]

Well okay that's not the first post you made, but still like... why just cherry pick "If I were a wolf masoned with a villager" that wording just feels off.

[lilrascal]

Hey monstr. It's good to see you over here on FTR.

Who do you think are the most likely villas and wolves?

[lilrascal]

I think (3) should read:

(3) 2 w/w partnerships, 6 v/v partnerships.

With the special onus of having played more games with Monstr and Lilrascal than anyone else here, I'm sorry to say I can't do anything stronger than put Rascal in the null category. I have Monstr as slightly greater than rand to be a villager, and feel like he'll make himself obvious enough in short order.

I've not seen Rascal wolf in long games other than 1 time in a mash, and he has plenty of posts but all of them are about the mechanics and strategy of the reveal and nothing about the alignment of any players.

Yes, I have been focusing on the mechanics and strategy of the reveal for 2 reasons:

1) I think it's important to figure out if revealing is best for the village. I'm still not convinced it's pro-villa. The argument that we know both kills is not necessarily pro-villa because a wolf can easily hide behind a strong villa. The other problem with this argument is that in a normal ww game, the second kill is an NK and always a villa. That's not the case here; the second kill can be a wolf in this game.

2) Because that's the best way to get interaction and insight into others thoughts to get reads.

I've been working on my reads and will be putting those out to the thread shortly.

[MadMojoMonkey]

this game is like some shit from se7en

kill a wolf and your own head explodes

Just like any other game. Except here, the wolves have less control over who's head explodes.

Sheez, in the Carnage game, your head exploded just 'cause it could.

[lilrascal]

Wuf's post in #363 finally puts forth some thoughts as to why to reveal rather than just because he thinks it's right.

I find Wuf to be wolfy in general, but based on last game, that may just be Wuf being normal Wuf.

Also, I think Wuf's sticking to his position without making a good case for it in spite of the arguments people have posted to him makes him too wolfy to be a wolf imo.

[lilrascal]

I think (3) should read:

(3) 2 w/w partnerships, 6 v/v partnerships.

Have you ever seen gabe so comfortable/playful as to post song lyrics?

The energy in those 2pac lyrics was definitely villager energy.

Why would this be role indicative either way?

I'm starting to get a villa vibe from Gabe based on tone, which was meh at the beginning.

[lilrascal]

I don't know why that first quote is in my above post. It's not part of my response about Gabe.

[lilrascal]

I think (3) should read:

(3) 2 w/w partnerships, 6 v/v partnerships.

Those of you pointing fingers at me, let me remind everyone that my standard game here has been extremely high volume wolf. If i were a wolf masoned with a villager here my first move would be to gain the trust of my partner, not to hold him at arm's length.

If you suspect your partner may be a wolf you must be very careful.

I have a bit of different read on you. I've seen you somewhat frozen as a wolf. That was primarily in turbos, but to me this seems a little like your wolf game, but not by much.

[lilrascal]

It did it again. This is getting frustrating.

[wufwugy]

#5

lynch wuf 'cause it's wolfy not to.

Open bolds me. At first I assumed this is standard MMM since he always seems to attack me

#105

I'm fairly confident that BID is V.

Looks benign but it doesn't jive with what he does later

#138

Keep lynching wuf for posting ill-conceived crap like this.

He turns his open bold into a bold with reason. Convenient.

#145

How about you focus on people instead of mechanics for a while, and maybe - maybe - find an argument to move my policy lynch off of you.

Oh so the bold on me is policy, not because you think I'm a wolf?

And we're nowhere near deadline, and you have 2 votes... it's not like you needed to pull out a ringer to save yourself

Um, that's an argument you make for why somebody is a villager, not a wolf.

#149

FYP

Ridicules me

#176

lynch wuf not changing.

Wuf, you're not hunting. Not only that, but you're stubbornly attached to a spurious assumption that multiple people have pointed out that you simply must abandon. Your failure to openly abandon this notion that your partner is unlynchable is the most dangerous thing that has presented itself to the village today.

I never said my partner is unlynchable. But you earlier "cleared" your partner and now says it's wrong for me to give reasons why people won't want to lynch their partners.

#193

It's complicated, and I'm not 100% on my stance, but I'm leaning reveal.

Say that again? So you've been down my throat, telling people you're never not lynching me, while my main argument has been for why reveals are good? You just took my side yet didn't care that you were bolding me. You're playing it both ways, trying to make me look bad but then agreeing with my position to make yourself look good.

#200

This is why you need to by lynched.

You'd rather say that you don't understand than actually try to understand.

Wolfy.

You agreed with me then called me wolfy because of it

#208

Recent arguments have me firmly in the no reveal unless you're on the block category.

What? You just said you support reveal. Now you say you support no reveal. All the while this changes nothing about your lynch opinion even though I have the strongest opinion on reveals. You think I'm a great lynch no matter what. You accuse me of not thinking about it but then you go and have an opinion that largely mirrors mine.

#214

Your statistics assume the final 4 are random variables about which there is no background information.

Your assumptions are flawed, and your results are erroneous.

Now drop this hand-waving charade of distracting from hunting, and start hunting.
All this talk is not helping the village find any wolves or even other villagers.

Stop turning the conversation to mundane topics about which wolves can speak honestly.

Says the guy who has done zero hunting. You open bolded me, called me stupid, agreed with me, called me stupid more, and never change your opinion of me no matter what. You have done no hunting. All you've done is say things like: "hey so no so what do you think of so n so." The nutlow form of hunting. It's not even hunting. Anybody can ask that question. Wolves do it all the time. Outside of that, all you have done is say you're always lynching me, you think your partner is a lock villager, and accused me of doing what you're doing. For somebody who says he disagrees with me so much and thinks I'm overly confident, it's a little weird that you would firmly hold a position that a baddy with little evidence and no change regardless of what happens. This is opportunistic out the ass.

#258

Having slept on the whole reveal thing:

I don't care how villagery a wolf's partner is. I don't care if the villager in the V-W pair is the strongest V and the wolf is the weakest W. I can not win as long as that W is alive. Sorry my bro V, but you can't win as long as you're alive.

This has no meaning. You're saying you want to lynch wolves. How fantastic! Meanwhile you keep saying I'm wasting my time talking about the reveals, yet you're still talking about reveals.



Half of me doesn't believe MMM believes what he says. His rationale for bolding me is non-existent and his hunting is misdirection. His opinion does not seem to truly change with new information.

The other half of me thinks he would do this as a villager. He did apologize to me, and I think that's big of him, so I don't think it would be about that. I have yet to see him actually agree with me about anything, so I have little way of telling if this is MMM playing a wolfy ass game or just being MMM and hating every word that comes out of my mouth

I am not interested in lynching unknowns. On principle. At first I didn't realize the full extent of how bad leaving reveals of links for the ending of each gameday is, but I think there is no way we're going to lynch a pair that is unrevealed. All the person going down will do is say "I'm linked to so n so" then a few people on his wagon will probably not be comfortable with it, and then the easy switch will be to a known pair considered earlier.

Not to mention that I think MMM's aggressive disagreement with me on the reveals could be because he knows how powerful it is for wolves to have that get out of jail free card. All this time I've been baffled that he has disagreed with me so much, but now I see it could just be that he's a wolf trying to defend a pro-wolf position.

I don't particularly think BID is a wolf. I hate lynching him here, but the problem is every option is a shitty option. So far at least. I have a feeling every lynch is going to suck ass. As long as we don't know the links, we'll be stuck having to lynch people we don't want to.

rescind monstr lynch mmm

[lilrascal]

I'm getting good villa vibes from Daven and Ong with a bit of monstr thrown in. All seem to be trying to help the villas.

I'm not really liking Luco and Rilla atm. They've seemed a bit abrasive, but that may be their normal game. I'm guessing that's the case with Rilla based on some things I've read. I didn't get that from Luco last time.

The rest are kind of meh and in my neutral pile for now.

[wufwugy]

I believe (but I could be mistaken) that wuf has either played in or modded every game of WW I've ever played or modded.

What are you on about here?

FWIW, wuf's sheer bravado at holding on to controversial viewpoints is damn American of him.

LOL you even admit I'm a villager yet it doesn't change your opinion at all

[lilrascal]

Wuf, in your big post in #372 you state:

Not to mention that I think MMM's aggressive disagreement with me on the reveals could be because he knows how powerful it is for wolves to have that get out of jail free card.

I don't understand this argument. Why would it be a get out of jail free card? If we get a wolf with the lynch, that's good for the village. There will be collateral damage in this game and a villa hard defending someone just because the wolf is their partner is not playing for the good of the village.