4bet Shoving AKo Pre-Flop-Line check

[kmind]

Depends on what kind of ranges you give him but if it's TT+/AQ+ it's a slight fold. If you add 22-99 in there it's more of a fold. The only way it would become profitable if he's shoving more hands we dominate such as AJ/AT.

[Openside]

Yes you have blockers but AA/KK are still in his range

You have almost zero fold Equity

I think you have found a hole in my logic. Based upon the premise that his 3bet range =/= his calling range, if we assign a 3bet range of 22+, AQs+, AKs+ (138 combos) and a calling range of QQ+, AQs+, AQo+ (50 combos) dont we have 63% Fold EV? ([138-50]/138).

Your saying his 3bet range = Calling range, deduced from his bet sizing?

Depends on what kind of ranges you give him but if it's TT+/AQ+ it's a slight fold. If you add 22-99 in there it's more of a fold.

I am missing something here. If Fold EV = (3betRange-CallRange)/3betRange, if we increase his 3bet range our Fold EV increases. How can increasing his 3bet range make it "more of a fold"?

[philly and the phanatics]

I think you have found a hole in my logic. Based upon the premise that his 3bet range =/= his calling range, if we assign a 3bet range of 22+, AQs+, AKs+ (138 combos) and a calling range of QQ+, AQs+, AQo+ (50 combos) dont we have 63% Fold EV? ([138-50]/138).

Your saying his 3bet range = Calling range, deduced from his bet sizing?



I am missing something here. If Fold EV = (3betRange-CallRange)/3betRange, if we increase his 3bet range our Fold EV increases. How can increasing his 3bet range make it "more of a fold"?

ok a couple of things

1st - its fold equity no fold ev

2nd- While he may be 3betting 8% and not stacking off with that whole 8%, its highly unlikely he is doing it with that sizing, so unless you have seen him 3bet this size with the bottom of his range, then i would not assume this is like 22 here.

3rd- on a similar note, unless you have seen him 3bet/fold this sizing before i think its a lot safer to assume he is never folding to a shove

4th- Kmind is not just including 22-99 in his 3betting range, but also in his 4bet calling range. When examining our equity (pot equity not fold equity) we notice that as we add in more hands like 22-99 (hands that are beating AK preflop) then we have even less pot equity than if he just had TT+ AQ+ DUCY?

[Openside]

ok a couple of things

1st - its fold equity no fold ev

Sorry, wrong terminology Is my math correct tho, assuming those ranges?

2nd- While he may be 3betting 8% and not stacking off with that whole 8%, its highly unlikely he is doing it with that sizing, so unless you have seen him 3bet this size with the bottom of his range, then i would not assume this is like 22 here.

I follow.

3rd- on a similar note, unless you have seen him 3bet/fold this sizing before i think its a lot safer to assume he is never folding to a shove

bet sizing is the white elephant missing from my logic in this hand.

4th- Kmind is not just including 22-99 in his 3betting range, but also in his 4bet calling range. When examining our equity (pot equity not fold equity) we notice that as we add in more hands like 22-99 (hands that are beating AK preflop) then we have even less pot equity than if he just had TT+ AQ+ DUCY?

Ah ok, i knew i was misunderstanding kminds point. I understood it reduced our pot equity but was too focused on my overweighted Fold equity.

[deucesomething]

Has he always been 3betting you this huge IP? If he's an uberdonk who likes to pull that kind of stuff frequently this would be a no brainer ship