4NL Is this allin write or rong?

[ButtonMash]

$0.02/$0.04 No Limit Holdem

6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($5.44)
UTG+1 ($2.82)
CO ($4.40)
BTN ($4.30)
SB ($4.80)
Hero ($4)

Only 6 hands on both opponents..both seem loose-ish.

Pre-Flop: ($0.06, 6 players) Hero is BB
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.04, 2 folds, SB calls $0.02, Hero checks


Flop: ($0.12, 3 players)
SB bets $0.16, Hero raises to $0.48, UTG+1 calls $0.48, SB raises to $1.02, Hero goes all-in $3.48, UTG+1 goes all-in $2.30, SB calls $2.94



The question is...is this allin the best option?

[Donachello]

You put the "w" on the wrong word.

[pdk1010]

You put the "w" on the wrong word.

lol

[bhaley66]

You put the "w" on the wrong word.

Took me like 5 minutes to figure what the hell you were talking about...lmao

[Johnny Cashout]

i personally dont like shoving without many reads on my opponents. I also don't like getting into big pots that were limped into. I dont see them limping in with 10s, kings, or queens, so my guess is that youre shoving against some draws ..flush or backdoor straight

[pdk1010]

$0.02/$0.04 No Limit Holdem




Flop: ($0.12, 3 players)
SB bets $0.16, Hero raises to $0.48, UTG+1 calls $0.48, SB raises to $1.02, Hero goes all-in $3.48, UTG+1 goes all-in $2.30, SB calls $2.94



The question is...is this allin the best option?

what range do you have villain on here?

[Openside]

The question is...is this allin the best option?

In before spoon!

http://http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/beginners-circle/how-analyze-calling-all-173396.html

[Keith]

whats wrong with just flatting the initial bet here. Theres no guarantee that we have the best hand at the moment, lots of cards on turn or river could turn out horrible for us and it would leave the option of getting away from the hand with our stack pretty much intact.A Q or T on the turn and we can still be looking to get as much value as possible out of villain. We dont want to see an A K J 9 or any club on the next two cards , so you are aiming to dodge 21 cards twice and you still might even be behind once you have done that. Flat it and keep the pot small and hope to bink a Q or T.

Add in the fact that the flop is extremely connected/flush draws and SB has overbet the pot out of position

[ButtonMash]

I reckoned villains' ranges to be rather wide. One was playing with less than full stack
and the other had entered 4/6 hands.
At the 'all in' point I thought that I probably had the best hand and I might get 1 fold(possibly 2).
I could get called by any A,K or J, or two clubs
It's true that there could be many scare cards later so going all in also removes the need for difficult decisions later - in itself an admission of post flop inexpertise.
Is this sort of thinking too risky/optimistic/fishlike?

[Tasha]

If no one else will then I'll have a go.
Of course, this situation is slightly different because it is Hero who goes all-in rather than being faced with the decision as to whether or not to call an all-in from someone else.

First, what sort of range can we put our villains on?
Since we haven't got any reads on them let's just take a standard strategy and go for JJ+ and AKs for the SB and add AQs, TT and AK for UTG+1. After all, we have no reason to assume that they are any more or less capable than we are even if the SB seems to be a bit short.

So, over to our friend Pokerstove to see what sort of equity we might have.
And the answer is:
Hero has about 14%
SB has about 48%.
UTG+1 has about 37%

Hero goes all-in for $3.48 and by the time everyone has finished calling the pot is $8.72.

Then we have the following:
EV = (.14)(8.72) - (..86)(3.48) = 1.22 - 2.99 = -$1.77

So going all-in was -EV.

Of course, I might be completely wrong as well.

[Arjonius]

Those ranges seem rather narrow considering one opponent limped pre-flop and the SB only completed. KQ, for example, is a hand that is quite often limped at micro, as are other suited and unsuited broadways.

It's hard to be very confident about micro players' ranges, but bottom two doesn't look so great after your raise is called and then re-raised.

[Tasha]

That is fair enough although I'd like to know if the calculation method was correct.

[spoonitnow]

In before spoon!

http://http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/beginners-circle/how-analyze-calling-all-173396.html

^^ This + http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ds-162741.html = More analysis in your post

[Tasha]

^^ This + http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ds-162741.html = More analysis in your post

But Spoon, it is Hero who is going all-in not calling an all-in. Doesn't that change things a bit?

[jaytoi]

But Spoon, it is Hero who is going all-in not calling an all-in. Doesn't that change things a bit?

Yeh it is a bit different. The decision on whether or not to call an all in is a little easier because we factor in our equity vs opps shoving range at that point and deduce whether the pot gives us odds to call or not i.e. if it's +EV.

However, the decision on whether to flat, shove or fold is made on the deduction of the most +EV action. Not only do we have to calculate whether our shove has enough combined fold equity and equity vs our opps calling range to be +EV, we also have to figure out whether or not it's more or less +EV than flatting or folding.

So in a sense it's a tougher decision to make in quite a few ways.

[OngBonga]

Range... it's tough with no reads but we have to at least try.

Pre Flop -

UTG+1 - 22-JJ, ATs+, AJ+
SB - any two (obv not AK, JJ+)

Flop -

SB bets - Kx, QT, KT, KQ, TT, Jx, clubs
Hero raises
UTG+1 calls - AJ, TT, JJ, Ax clubs
Sb raises - QT, KT, KQ, TT, J9, AJ
Hero ??

I think we should fold, but my ranges may be wrong, we have little information. It helps that UTG+1 is continuing and we should see a showdown regardless, offering us the chance to make notes on these two for future reference.

Hero shoves
UTG+1 calls - J9, AJ, Jx clubs, Ax clubs, TT, or JJ at a push
SB calls - it's 2pr at least, and we have bottom 2pr.

After they both call our shove, it seems clear to me that one of them has us crushed and the other has a monster draw at least, or is also crushing us. But we should already know this before we shove. Fold!

[OngBonga]

I think we can also add KJ to both their ranges, but it's still a fold for me.

[Tasha]

Range... it's tough with no reads but we have to at least try.

Pre Flop -

UTG+1 - 22-JJ, ATs+, AJ+
SB - any two (obv not AK, JJ+)

Aren't these a little wide?
Not that it really matters, your final analysis is to not shove.

[OngBonga]

UTG+1 limps, that for me can be any pair at this level, I'm limping 22 UTG all day at 2nl, I imagine 4nl is not much different. It could even be unsuited braodway, so I thought my UTG+1 range was actually too tight!
And again, at 2nl I expect someone making up the blind to be calling any two, I've even seen people making up the small blind with like 83o after it's folded round to them.
The only info I have from the limps is they don't have like AQ+ QQ+, but even then, I've seen people limp monsters in early pos at low levels quite often. Personally I can't begin to narrow their range to one that truly threatens our hand until after our raise on the flop, at which point I'm thinking we're in terrible shape. I don't mind the raise on the flop if we use the info that the others give us after, it seems better than calling hoping to hit one of four outs, or calling two people down to showdown hoping that bottom 2pr is good in a monster limp pot.
I must be honest, I would probably go with it if this were a heads-up pot, especially if we have pos, ie UTG+1 folds to our raise, I could consider then that SB can be raising Kx, Ax clubs or Jx, but I would certainly be aware of the dangers of doing so with someone we have only 6 hands on.

I hope our hero here made plenty of notes when he saw the showdown.

[spoonitnow]

But Spoon, it is Hero who is going all-in not calling an all-in. Doesn't that change things a bit?

Not if you change the action so that Villains shoved, since that's what their bet sizes basically do. If they fold any part of their range at this point it's +EV for us.

[Tasha]

Not if you change the action so that Villains shoved, since that's what their bet sizes basically do. If they fold any part of their range at this point it's +EV for us.

I actually managed to follow all of this thread up till this point.