[5NL] 77 flop an overpair in 4 way pot. What to do?

[Cobra_1878]

SB - 46/33/11 through 118 hands. Fold to cbet 63%, 5/8. Had notes that villain was passive, c/c 3 streets with a set. Had also seen villain 3bet with KK and 3bet with 65s before calling a 4bet.

MP - 34/32/13 through 51 hands. Fold to cbet 100%, 1/1. Had 91% cbet, 10/11.

CO - 86/0/0 through 30 hands. 56% fold to cbet, 5/9.

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $6.37
Hero (BB): $5.25
UTG: $15.24
MP: $4.64
CO: $6.09
BTN: $4.79

SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has 7 7

fold, MP raises to $0.15, CO calls $0.15, fold, SB calls $0.13, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.60, 4 players) 6 3 2
SB checks, Hero bets $0.60, fold, CO calls $0.60, SB raises to $1.90, fold, CO calls $1.30

Is this a good spot to be leading out? If it is, what size should our bet be?

I figure we probably have the best hand on this flop and seems as we don't like many turn cards we are happy to take the pot now, which is my reasoning for leading out.

Or is it just simply call to hit a 7, if we miss, c/f?

Seems to be a spot that's coming up more frequently so thoughts and opinions appreciated.

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Found a similar hand, completely different villain though, putting it in same thread.

Villain is 18/15/5 through 194 hands. Fold to cbet 50%, 2/4. No notes on villain, so haven't seen him get out of line/do anything crazy.

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: $9.60
CO: $14.24
BTN: $5.00
SB: $1.84
BB: $12.13
Hero (UTG): $5.30

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has 8 8

Hero raises to $0.20, MP calls $0.20, fold, fold, fold, fold

Flop: ($0.47, 2 players) 7 4 7
Hero bets $0.45, MP calls $0.45

Turn: ($1.37, 2 players) 5
Hero bets $1.05, fold

Same as above hand, I figure I probably have the best hand and I am happy to take pot on flop. I also doubt that this flop has hit villain's range, so unless he just flat called with 99+, I am in pretty good shape. When he calls, the turn is one of the few cards that I don't mind and decide to bet again taking pot down.

Thoughts?

[MadMojoMonkey]

Hand 1 is a problem, since you called PRE to set mine getting 5:1, closing the action and playing 4-handed with great implied odds, but then bet with no set OTF, OOP.

PRE, I don't mind a call or a raise. If you raise here, you'll probably get similar odds after the callers, and you have a slim chance to take it down PRE. Plus, you have a hand that plays extremely easily post-flop. I mean, you'll pretty much know whether you're ahead or behind with 77.

OTF, you change your plan from flopping a set and go ahead and donk full pot with an overpair. I don't like this part. I mean, this is the thinnest of value, and is more likely to get called when it's beat or worse, raised OTF ('cause what are you repping?). If you're trying to take it down now, I'd try for a c/r.

Sizing:
The board is pretty dry. I mean, rainbow, and all low cards in a raised pot. It's not as strong as if you'd 3-bet PRE, since there's basically nothing in their ranges that hits this but sets and Axs. I don't mind the sizing; the board's not wet enough to justify an overbet. If it was not a rainbow with same ranks, I'd probably bet $0.90, though.

I'd rather c/r, though. You might get a free turn card, and you have much better odds of getting the bluff through.

What is SB repping now? I mean, if he's got { 63,62,32 } in his range, then he's got all kinds of trash in there. An overpair that didn't raise PRE? (Hero did it, why not?) { 66,33,22,54 } is pretty narrow considering how wide he'd have to be to call pre... but if you're note says he's passive, then that's what he's got. There's just no way you can expect 77 to be good when there's no draws but gutshots out there.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Hand 2 is completely different.

Hand 2 is HU to the flop, it's a paired board, Villain has a much tighter range going into the flop, your PP is above the non-paired board card, AND you had initiative from the previous street. Not to mention the clubs.

The greater problem here is that you view these hands as similar circumstances.

Not all over-pairs are created equal.

[kickass]

I kinda like the lead in h1 purely for protection vs all the overs that are out there if flop gets chked thru but we likely have the best hand now, once we get raised snap folds obv. Your bet certainly doesn't need to be pot sized. Pre is fine and is better than raising IMO

[Cobra_1878]

Hand 1 is a problem, since you called PRE to set mine getting 5:1, closing the action and playing 4-handed with great implied odds, but then bet with no set OTF, OOP.

PRE, I don't mind a call or a raise. If you raise here, you'll probably get similar odds after the callers, and you have a slim chance to take it down PRE. Plus, you have a hand that plays extremely easily post-flop. I mean, you'll pretty much know whether you're ahead or behind with 77.

OTF, you change your plan from flopping a set and go ahead and donk full pot with an overpair. I don't like this part. I mean, this is the thinnest of value, and is more likely to get called when it's beat or worse, raised OTF ('cause what are you repping?). If you're trying to take it down now, I'd try for a c/r. - If I c/r though, what am I repping that I flatted with in the BB? I certainly wouldn't c/r with a set on this board, I would lead out, maybe 2P? I also wouldn't take TT+ to this flop 4 handed, I would 3bet pre to give my hand more protection. Also, if I check and it checks around, there is almost no turn card I like and I have probably lost my opportunity to win the pot when I probably had the best hand?

Sizing:
The board is pretty dry. I mean, rainbow, and all low cards in a raised pot. It's not as strong as if you'd 3-bet PRE, since there's basically nothing in their ranges that hits this but sets and Axs. I don't mind the sizing; the board's not wet enough to justify an overbet. If it was not a rainbow with same ranks, I'd probably bet $0.90, though.

I'd rather c/r, though. You might get a free turn card, and you have much better odds of getting the bluff through.

What is SB repping now? I mean, if he's got { 63,62,32 } in his range, then he's got all kinds of trash in there. An overpair that didn't raise PRE? (Hero did it, why not?) { 66,33,22,54 } is pretty narrow considering how wide he'd have to be to call pre... but if you're note says he's passive, then that's what he's got. There's just no way you can expect 77 to be good when there's no draws but gutshots out there. - I know I am beat when SB raises, was more concerned with my first action on this flop.

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Hand 2 is completely different.

Hand 2 is HU to the flop, it's a paired board, Villain has a much tighter range going into the flop, your PP is above the non-paired board card, AND you had initiative from the previous street. Not to mention the clubs.

The greater problem here is that you view these hands as similar circumstances.

Not all over-pairs are created equal.

I didn't explain myself very well at all last night. I didn't mean it was the same spot or situation, I just meant I had another overpair to the board. I do realise they are completely different hands in terms of villain, villain's ranges, number of villain's, strength of my hand, position etc etc etc. So that's my bad.

I kinda like the lead in h1 purely for protection vs all the overs that are out there if flop gets chked thru but we likely have the best hand now, once we get raised snap folds obv. Your bet certainly doesn't need to be pot sized. Pre is fine and is better than raising IMO

That is the point I was trying to make so poorly. What bet sizing would you suggest? I think if I bet 2/3 PSB I would prob get at least 1 call?

[griffey24]

I don't mind either hand.

I think given your sizing in hand 1, facing a call and a raise, this is an easy fold now.

You will show up with around 13 value combos here (9 sets, 4 straights), so just make sure you don't have too much of a bluffing range in this spot. If you are going to fold 55,6x,77,88,99 in this spot, then your range is heavily weighted towards hands that will fold to heat.

[eugmac]

I think flop c/r seems mad since it will fold out all sorts of trash one of the fish might call one bet with, and MP is not bluffing at this pot every time despite the high Cbet percentage.

[MadMojoMonkey]

If I c/r though, what am I repping that I flatted with in the BB?

Exactly. Same question we're asking about SB, and mostly the same answer, but he's passive and Hero is not.

What is your range going to the flop?
Do a breakdown like Renton's ABCD Theorem on your range on this board.

What are Villains' FTC ratios?

Should your range have c/r's in it?
If so, given your sizing on this board, what % of that range should be bluffs?

I certainly wouldn't c/r with a set on this board, I would lead out, maybe 2P?

You'd vary your bet sizing (by a huge, noticeable amount) depending on the strength of your hand rather than basing your bet sizing on the board texture and villain's ranges? Seems kind of transparent.

I prefer to vary my ranges to match bet sizing, which is more concealed. When I vary my bet sizing, it's only by a couple of BB's.

Seems like a combination of the 2 tactics would be ideal. I.e. having multiple bet-sizes on a specific board texture and appropriate ranges to fill each bet-sizing. By "appropriate", I mean non-transparent strength.

Also, if I check and it checks around, there is almost no turn card I like and I have probably lost my opportunity to win the pot when I probably had the best hand?

What % of the time will a donk bet take it down?
What % of the time will either IP villain bet when checked to?
What % of the time will a c/r take it down?

Feels like you are quite confident that 77 is the best hand, but will it stay the best hand? If not, will any bet size deter someone from calling to take another card? What is the EV if you open donk-jammed?

In a 4-handed pot, seeing a turn card is highly likely. So while you're "betting for protection", is your bet actually offering you protection?

Maybe I'm just a bit weak in these spots, but 77 seems like a weak showdown hand akin to having A6 in this spot (which I'd actually prefer, giving me 5 outs to improve instead of just 2.)

[Cobra_1878]

Exactly. Same question we're asking about SB, and mostly the same answer, but he's passive and Hero is not.

What is your range going to the flop?
Do a breakdown like Renton's ABCD Theorem on your range on this board.

What are Villains' FTC ratios?

Should your range have c/r's in it?
If so, given your sizing on this board, what % of that range should be bluffs?

You'd vary your bet sizing (by a huge, noticeable amount) depending on the strength of your hand rather than basing your bet sizing on the board texture and villain's ranges? Seems kind of transparent.

I prefer to vary my ranges to match bet sizing, which is more concealed. When I vary my bet sizing, it's only by a couple of BB's.

Seems like a combination of the 2 tactics would be ideal. I.e. having multiple bet-sizes on a specific board texture and appropriate ranges to fill each bet-sizing. By "appropriate", I mean non-transparent strength.


What % of the time will a donk bet take it down?
What % of the time will either IP villain bet when checked to?
What % of the time will a c/r take it down?

Feels like you are quite confident that 77 is the best hand, but will it stay the best hand? If not, will any bet size deter someone from calling to take another card? What is the EV if you open donk-jammed?

In a 4-handed pot, seeing a turn card is highly likely. So while you're "betting for protection", is your bet actually offering you protection?

Maybe I'm just a bit weak in these spots, but 77 seems like a weak showdown hand akin to having A6 in this spot (which I'd actually prefer, giving me 5 outs to improve instead of just 2.)

@ first quote - Not really sure how to approach the first part of your post? Are we assuming I flat call again, so the nut end of my range on this board would be 54, 22-33, 66?

I don't vary my betting based purely on my hand strength, but if I had the nuts/ a set on this flop, I would bet smaller than a PSB to let people catch up as it's unlikely they have hit this flop hard and I am probably way ahead.

I feel I have a better chance, and probably have to risk less money, if I lead out as opposed to c/r on this board. MP had a 91% cbet so it's fairly safe to assume he would have led out at this pot given the chance.

Yeah I did feel 77 was the best hand when I led out on the flop. I think a PSB gives me enough protection, smaller bets like 2/3 or 3/4 PSB may get a call from an AK/AQ type hand and I feel I am less prone to being bluff-raised if I lead out with a good sized bet.

It is a weak showdown hand if I miss a 7. That's why I am happy to try and take the pot down on the flop.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Not really sure how to approach the first part of your post?

Check out Renton's ABCD Theorem, if you haven't recently.

1) What is your range to flat on the BB in this pre-flop situation?

OTF, you divide your prior range into 4 categories:
A) What is your range of strong/nut hands?
B) What is your range of strong-but-not-quite-nut hands?
C) What is your range of weak showdown-value hands?
D) What is your range of trash hands?

A is your "playing for stacks" range
B is your "playing for a big pot" range
C is your "playing for a cheap showdown" range
D is your "EZ fold" range

[Cobra_1878]

Check out Renton's ABCD Theorem, if you haven't recently.

1) What is your range to flat on the BB in this pre-flop situation?

OTF, you divide your prior range into 4 categories:
A) What is your range of strong/nut hands?
B) What is your range of strong-but-not-quite-nut hands?
C) What is your range of weak showdown-value hands?
D) What is your range of trash hands?

A is your "playing for stacks" range
B is your "playing for a big pot" range
C is your "playing for a cheap showdown" range
D is your "EZ fold" range

Yeah OK, I get it now. I understood the thread, and have read it before, just wasn't sure if we were assuming I flatted in the BB again.

I will flat in the BB here with pretty much ATC, except TT+ and AK. Will sometimes 3bet with AQ/KQ.

On the flop:

Range A) 22-33, 66, 54.

Range B) 63, 62, 23

Range C) 77-99, any 6x hand with no 2 or 3, A3

Range D) Everything else. Pretty much ATC that haven't connected with the flop. Would probably call one bet, depending on bet size, with 2 broadways.

That what you're looking for?

[eugmac]

You can upgrade 77-99 easily to Range B. Look at who you're in a multiway pot with. SB is a fish, CO is a 86/0 whaaaale. 86/0 players aren't thinking players (apart from i have a pair, i call!). Because we'll definitely get random 6x hands and even worse to call a pot or nearly pot-sized bet, maybe even bare gutshots and all sorts of junk, I think we can definitely bet hoping for a fish to come along and slow down/play pot control on bad turns and rivers imo. SB and CO are very passive so we're also not so scared of getting bluffed off of our hand too often, so of course fold to any aggression. I don't like the idea of checking to the raiser who might shy away from cbetting vs 3 opps and we give free shots for a random cocktail of overcards to outdraw us.

[eugmac]

I will flat in the BB here with pretty much ATC, except TT+ and AK. Will sometimes 3bet with AQ/KQ.

I appreciate that you're thinking of the preflop pot odds you're getting offered but just how close to ATC do you mean by that?

[Cobra_1878]

I appreciate that you're thinking of the preflop pot odds you're getting offered but just how close to ATC do you mean by that?

Between 80 - 85% of hands...not calling with T2o, 94o-92o, 84o-82o, 74o-72o, 63o-62o, 53o-52o, 42o+, 32o. Not calling with like J4o-J2o, Q4o-Q2o, K4o-K2o either.

So I guess most of the 63/62/32 combo's are taken out of my B range as well.

[eugmac]

Please stop playing so much shit oop multiways, basically, especially when villians have narrowed their range to the stronger end by raising or calling raises. How many combos is your D range right now that you're check/folding? What kind of flop are you hoping for, for example, with J5o?

[Cobra_1878]

Please stop playing so much shit oop multiways, basically, especially when villians have narrowed their range to the stronger end by raising or calling raises. How many combos is your D range right now that you're check/folding? What kind of flop are you hoping for, for example, with J5o?

Any flop that gives me 2P+ that isn't too dangerous, like J52r for example. Obviously getting 5-1 on my money in the BB doesn't happen too often, so my range wouldn't usually be so wide if say only 2 villains were in pot.

[eugmac]

Your odds of flopping 2P+ are like 3%, and often you'll be in reverse implied odds situations when you do flop your hand, so i think this is really bad. You see situations like this all the time live, by the way.

[Cobra_1878]

I haven't played any cash live, only tournaments and it does happen fairly often there as well actually.

I take your point. I will tighten up.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I will flat in the BB here with

Between 80 - 85% of hands [, except TT+ and AK. Will sometimes 3bet with AQ/KQ]... not calling with T2o, 94o-92o, 84o-82o, 74o-72o, 63o-62o, 53o-52o, 42o+, 32o. Not calling with like J4o-J2o, Q4o-Q2o, K4o-K2o either.

So I guess most of the 63/62/32 combo's are taken out of my B range as well.

On the flop:

Range A) 22-33, 66, 54.

Range B) 63, 62, 23

Range C) 77-99, any 6x hand with no 2 or 3, A3

Range D) Everything else. Pretty much ATC that haven't connected with the flop. Would probably call one bet, depending on bet size, with 2 broadways.

That what you're looking for?

PRE:
{ 99-22,AQs-A2s,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,92s+,82s+,72s+,62s+,52s+,4 2s+,32s,AQo-A2o,K5o+,Q5o+,J5o+,T5o+,95o+,85o+,75o+,64o+,54o }
is 944 combos

A) { 66,33-22,54s,54o } is 25 combos or 25/944 =
2.6% of your range

B) { 63s-62s,32s } is 6 combos or 6/944 =
0.6% of your range

C) { 99-77, A6s, K6s, Q6s, J6s, T6s, 96s, 86s, 76s, 62s+, A6o, K6o, Q6o, J6o, T6o, 96o, 86o, 76o, 64o+ } is 142 combos or 142/944 =
15.0% of your range

D) the rest is 771 combos or 771/944 =
81.7% or your range

See the way you're just throwing away money a huge majority of the time?

Just hands that you do NOT c/f is 173 combos
A) 25/173 = 14.5%
B) 6/173 = 3.5%
C) 142/173 = 82.1%

See that even when you're not throwing away money, you're playing a weak hand OOP, trying for a cheap showdown?

Those 2 things are not my point.

My point is to now look at those ranges and think about what would be better.

So, now that you see your range broken down like this, what changes do you think would improve the EV of your entire range?

Start by thinking of your ABCD range pre, in the BB with the villains and action described ITT. You said you'd tighten up, right? So how tight? Once you have that, then pick the range that calls this action pre and apply your knowledge of the flop and break that range down into ABCD.

[spoonitnow]

Hand 1 is a problem, since you called PRE to set mine getting 5:1, closing the action and playing 4-handed with great implied odds, but then bet with no set OTF, OOP.

This logic by itself doesn't hold up too well. We should be looking at the EV of what happens when we bet and compare it to the EV of what happens when we check if you want to take that route. It's hard to talk about it in this thread without dishing out novel-sized posts, so you guys come to the FTR CHAT ROOM (no download needed) and have at it.

[anderson_pl]

Cześć,

Witam wszystkich, chciałem się przedstawić na forum. Miłego dnia życzę.

[Cobra_1878]

My point is to now look at those ranges and think about what would be better.

So, now that you see your range broken down like this, what changes do you think would improve the EV of your entire range?

Start by thinking of your ABCD range pre, in the BB with the villains and action described ITT. You said you'd tighten up, right? So how tight? Once you have that, then pick the range that calls this action pre and apply your knowledge of the flop and break that range down into ABCD.

OK, I have given this another go.

I think my range may still be a little wide...we will see. Can't really fold too many hands getting 5:1.

Calling range pre is now; TT-22,AQs-A2s,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+, 97s+,86s+,75s+,65s,54s,AQo-ATo,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,
97o+,86o+,75o+,65o,54o = 406 combo's.

On flop;

Range A) 66, 33-22, 54s, 54o - 34 combo's...8.3% of my range?

Range B) Not many hands in my range here I want to play for a big pot with. Maybe 99-TT, obv depending on turn & river cards - 12 combo's...2.9%?

Range C) 88-77, 55-44, 65s, 65o, 75s, 75o, 76s, 76o, 86s, 86o, A6s - 92 combo's...22.6%?

Range D) AQs-A7s,A5s-A2s,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,AQo-ATo,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,97o+,87o - 268 combo's...66%?

I think my range pre hits a lot more boards, and are much stronger hands, the majority of the time. I doubt this flop is good for many people's ranges pre in this situation.

Edit - not sure if I have calculated my %'s correctly.

[spoonitnow]

Cześć,

Witam wszystkich, chciałem się przedstawić na forum. Miłego dnia życzę.

Excellent contribution to the thread. We would also like to have you in the FTR Chat Room (see link in my signature).

[MadMojoMonkey]

OK, that seems a bit more sensible. Personally, I'd prefer to play more Kxs and fewer OS1G, but I don't think that's too major a deal. Those straights you're mining will be more concealed and nutted than K-high flushes, anyway. I think you can safely add { 64s,53s } if you're comfortable with { 75s,54s } in your range.

OTF, you have 382 combos
A) 35 combos -> 9.2% (was ~2.5%)
B) 12 combos -> 3.1% (was ~0.5%)
C) 79 combos -> 20.7% (was ~15%)
D) 256 combos -> 67.0%

This range is much stronger... not just on this board but on most boards.

The question now is what to do with those ranges. As always, we need to know Villains' tendencies to move forward with that.

MP, the pre-flop aggressor, has a 91% C-bet stat. So it's hugely likely that he will barrel quite loose.
CO folds to most C-bets, so I expect a fold, maybe a call. A raise probably means overpair+.
SB has already checked, so probably doesn't like his hand too much, and the note says passive, so I expect a c/f or a c/c. IF SB calls, I have to put him on a strong range, and the strength of 77 against his continuing range is probably very weak.

It strikes me that if you check, MP bets almost all the time. So you get to see what CO and SB do without risking your own chips.

Given these data, what portions of your range fall into the b/f and c/r categories?

[PotBet]

Please stop playing so much shit oop multiways, basically, especially when villians have narrowed their range to the stronger end by raising or calling raises. How many combos is your D range right now that you're check/folding? What kind of flop are you hoping for, for example, with J5o?

Your odds of flopping 2P+ are like 3%, and often you'll be in reverse implied odds situations when you do flop your hand, so i think this is really bad. You see situations like this all the time live, by the way.

^^^ This.

If I had passive notes against villain, and he went big on that flop... Imma fold to the 45 _ straight. Hey, he was just protecting his blind.

Range, shmange

-

[Cobra_1878]

OK, that seems a bit more sensible. Personally, I'd prefer to play more Kxs and fewer OS1G, but I don't think that's too major a deal. Those straights you're mining will be more concealed and nutted than K-high flushes, anyway. I think you can safely add { 64s,53s } if you're comfortable with { 75s,54s } in your range.

OTF, you have 382 combos
A) 35 combos -> 9.2% (was ~2.5%)
B) 12 combos -> 3.1% (was ~0.5%)
C) 79 combos -> 20.7% (was ~15%)
D) 256 combos -> 67.0%

This range is much stronger... not just on this board but on most boards.

The question now is what to do with those ranges. As always, we need to know Villains' tendencies to move forward with that.

MP, the pre-flop aggressor, has a 91% C-bet stat. So it's hugely likely that he will barrel quite loose.
CO folds to most C-bets, so I expect a fold, maybe a call. A raise probably means overpair+.
SB has already checked, so probably doesn't like his hand too much, and the note says passive, so I expect a c/f or a c/c. IF SB calls, I have to put him on a strong range, and the strength of 77 against his continuing range is probably very weak.

It strikes me that if you check, MP bets almost all the time. So you get to see what CO and SB do without risking your own chips.

Given these data, what portions of your range fall into the b/f and c/r categories?

I think I bet fold all of my B and C range. Not sure if I would c/r on this board, but if I did, I think it would be with the nuts.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Given how wide MP is likely to fire, and that CO will likely fold, and that SB will play passive:

Do you see any value in a c/c at all?

[Cobra_1878]

Given how wide MP is likely to fire, and that CO will likely fold, and that SB will play passive:

Do you see any value in a c/c at all?

Maybe. I am probably ahead of MP's 91% cbetting range, though I don't calling because of the amount of turn cards I don't like. However, if we check and MP bets and SB raises, we can fold our hand knowing it's not good without having to lead out.

I still don't think I like checking though, either c/c or c/r. C/r would be my preferred option of the two.

[rpm]

leading hand 1 is marginal imo. only worse hands calling are probably 44,55. we're unlikely to take it down often in such a multiway pot, and we're not in great shape very often when we go to a turn in terms of equity or position. so i rather a C/F as played easy fold vs this raise.

hand 2 i'd CB flop smaller, probably $0.25 or $0.3. as played yeah barreling probably isn't bad for value vs FD's and to take the equity of any floats he may have.

I suck in these spots too so curious to see what everyone else said now

[seven-deuce]

Found a similar hand

These spots aren't similar one is 4-way and the other is heads-up. In hand #1 we have to consider 4 villains ranges whereas in hand #2 we only have to consider the one villains range.

Hand #1 - I'm check folding this all day long.

Hand #2 - I'm betting for value here vs most villains, we can't check and give him infinite odds to hit an over-card or a club.