[5NL] 77 flop an overpair in 4 way pot. What to do?

[kickass]

I kinda like the lead in h1 purely for protection vs all the overs that are out there if flop gets chked thru but we likely have the best hand now, once we get raised snap folds obv. Your bet certainly doesn't need to be pot sized. Pre is fine and is better than raising IMO

[Cobra_1878]

Hand 1 is a problem, since you called PRE to set mine getting 5:1, closing the action and playing 4-handed with great implied odds, but then bet with no set OTF, OOP.

PRE, I don't mind a call or a raise. If you raise here, you'll probably get similar odds after the callers, and you have a slim chance to take it down PRE. Plus, you have a hand that plays extremely easily post-flop. I mean, you'll pretty much know whether you're ahead or behind with 77.

OTF, you change your plan from flopping a set and go ahead and donk full pot with an overpair. I don't like this part. I mean, this is the thinnest of value, and is more likely to get called when it's beat or worse, raised OTF ('cause what are you repping?). If you're trying to take it down now, I'd try for a c/r. - If I c/r though, what am I repping that I flatted with in the BB? I certainly wouldn't c/r with a set on this board, I would lead out, maybe 2P? I also wouldn't take TT+ to this flop 4 handed, I would 3bet pre to give my hand more protection. Also, if I check and it checks around, there is almost no turn card I like and I have probably lost my opportunity to win the pot when I probably had the best hand?

Sizing:
The board is pretty dry. I mean, rainbow, and all low cards in a raised pot. It's not as strong as if you'd 3-bet PRE, since there's basically nothing in their ranges that hits this but sets and Axs. I don't mind the sizing; the board's not wet enough to justify an overbet. If it was not a rainbow with same ranks, I'd probably bet $0.90, though.

I'd rather c/r, though. You might get a free turn card, and you have much better odds of getting the bluff through.

What is SB repping now? I mean, if he's got { 63,62,32 } in his range, then he's got all kinds of trash in there. An overpair that didn't raise PRE? (Hero did it, why not?) { 66,33,22,54 } is pretty narrow considering how wide he'd have to be to call pre... but if you're note says he's passive, then that's what he's got. There's just no way you can expect 77 to be good when there's no draws but gutshots out there. - I know I am beat when SB raises, was more concerned with my first action on this flop.

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Hand 2 is completely different.

Hand 2 is HU to the flop, it's a paired board, Villain has a much tighter range going into the flop, your PP is above the non-paired board card, AND you had initiative from the previous street. Not to mention the clubs.

The greater problem here is that you view these hands as similar circumstances.

Not all over-pairs are created equal.

I didn't explain myself very well at all last night. I didn't mean it was the same spot or situation, I just meant I had another overpair to the board. I do realise they are completely different hands in terms of villain, villain's ranges, number of villain's, strength of my hand, position etc etc etc. So that's my bad.

I kinda like the lead in h1 purely for protection vs all the overs that are out there if flop gets chked thru but we likely have the best hand now, once we get raised snap folds obv. Your bet certainly doesn't need to be pot sized. Pre is fine and is better than raising IMO

That is the point I was trying to make so poorly. What bet sizing would you suggest? I think if I bet 2/3 PSB I would prob get at least 1 call?

[griffey24]

I don't mind either hand.

I think given your sizing in hand 1, facing a call and a raise, this is an easy fold now.

You will show up with around 13 value combos here (9 sets, 4 straights), so just make sure you don't have too much of a bluffing range in this spot. If you are going to fold 55,6x,77,88,99 in this spot, then your range is heavily weighted towards hands that will fold to heat.

[MadMojoMonkey]

If I c/r though, what am I repping that I flatted with in the BB?

Exactly. Same question we're asking about SB, and mostly the same answer, but he's passive and Hero is not.

What is your range going to the flop?
Do a breakdown like Renton's ABCD Theorem on your range on this board.

What are Villains' FTC ratios?

Should your range have c/r's in it?
If so, given your sizing on this board, what % of that range should be bluffs?

I certainly wouldn't c/r with a set on this board, I would lead out, maybe 2P?

You'd vary your bet sizing (by a huge, noticeable amount) depending on the strength of your hand rather than basing your bet sizing on the board texture and villain's ranges? Seems kind of transparent.

I prefer to vary my ranges to match bet sizing, which is more concealed. When I vary my bet sizing, it's only by a couple of BB's.

Seems like a combination of the 2 tactics would be ideal. I.e. having multiple bet-sizes on a specific board texture and appropriate ranges to fill each bet-sizing. By "appropriate", I mean non-transparent strength.

Also, if I check and it checks around, there is almost no turn card I like and I have probably lost my opportunity to win the pot when I probably had the best hand?

What % of the time will a donk bet take it down?
What % of the time will either IP villain bet when checked to?
What % of the time will a c/r take it down?

Feels like you are quite confident that 77 is the best hand, but will it stay the best hand? If not, will any bet size deter someone from calling to take another card? What is the EV if you open donk-jammed?

In a 4-handed pot, seeing a turn card is highly likely. So while you're "betting for protection", is your bet actually offering you protection?

Maybe I'm just a bit weak in these spots, but 77 seems like a weak showdown hand akin to having A6 in this spot (which I'd actually prefer, giving me 5 outs to improve instead of just 2.)

[Cobra_1878]

Exactly. Same question we're asking about SB, and mostly the same answer, but he's passive and Hero is not.

What is your range going to the flop?
Do a breakdown like Renton's ABCD Theorem on your range on this board.

What are Villains' FTC ratios?

Should your range have c/r's in it?
If so, given your sizing on this board, what % of that range should be bluffs?

You'd vary your bet sizing (by a huge, noticeable amount) depending on the strength of your hand rather than basing your bet sizing on the board texture and villain's ranges? Seems kind of transparent.

I prefer to vary my ranges to match bet sizing, which is more concealed. When I vary my bet sizing, it's only by a couple of BB's.

Seems like a combination of the 2 tactics would be ideal. I.e. having multiple bet-sizes on a specific board texture and appropriate ranges to fill each bet-sizing. By "appropriate", I mean non-transparent strength.


What % of the time will a donk bet take it down?
What % of the time will either IP villain bet when checked to?
What % of the time will a c/r take it down?

Feels like you are quite confident that 77 is the best hand, but will it stay the best hand? If not, will any bet size deter someone from calling to take another card? What is the EV if you open donk-jammed?

In a 4-handed pot, seeing a turn card is highly likely. So while you're "betting for protection", is your bet actually offering you protection?

Maybe I'm just a bit weak in these spots, but 77 seems like a weak showdown hand akin to having A6 in this spot (which I'd actually prefer, giving me 5 outs to improve instead of just 2.)

@ first quote - Not really sure how to approach the first part of your post? Are we assuming I flat call again, so the nut end of my range on this board would be 54, 22-33, 66?

I don't vary my betting based purely on my hand strength, but if I had the nuts/ a set on this flop, I would bet smaller than a PSB to let people catch up as it's unlikely they have hit this flop hard and I am probably way ahead.

I feel I have a better chance, and probably have to risk less money, if I lead out as opposed to c/r on this board. MP had a 91% cbet so it's fairly safe to assume he would have led out at this pot given the chance.

Yeah I did feel 77 was the best hand when I led out on the flop. I think a PSB gives me enough protection, smaller bets like 2/3 or 3/4 PSB may get a call from an AK/AQ type hand and I feel I am less prone to being bluff-raised if I lead out with a good sized bet.

It is a weak showdown hand if I miss a 7. That's why I am happy to try and take the pot down on the flop.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Not really sure how to approach the first part of your post?

Check out Renton's ABCD Theorem, if you haven't recently.

1) What is your range to flat on the BB in this pre-flop situation?

OTF, you divide your prior range into 4 categories:
A) What is your range of strong/nut hands?
B) What is your range of strong-but-not-quite-nut hands?
C) What is your range of weak showdown-value hands?
D) What is your range of trash hands?

A is your "playing for stacks" range
B is your "playing for a big pot" range
C is your "playing for a cheap showdown" range
D is your "EZ fold" range

[Cobra_1878]

Check out Renton's ABCD Theorem, if you haven't recently.

1) What is your range to flat on the BB in this pre-flop situation?

OTF, you divide your prior range into 4 categories:
A) What is your range of strong/nut hands?
B) What is your range of strong-but-not-quite-nut hands?
C) What is your range of weak showdown-value hands?
D) What is your range of trash hands?

A is your "playing for stacks" range
B is your "playing for a big pot" range
C is your "playing for a cheap showdown" range
D is your "EZ fold" range

Yeah OK, I get it now. I understood the thread, and have read it before, just wasn't sure if we were assuming I flatted in the BB again.

I will flat in the BB here with pretty much ATC, except TT+ and AK. Will sometimes 3bet with AQ/KQ.

On the flop:

Range A) 22-33, 66, 54.

Range B) 63, 62, 23

Range C) 77-99, any 6x hand with no 2 or 3, A3

Range D) Everything else. Pretty much ATC that haven't connected with the flop. Would probably call one bet, depending on bet size, with 2 broadways.

That what you're looking for?

[anderson_pl]

Cześć,

Witam wszystkich, chciałem się przedstawić na forum. Miłego dnia życzę.

[spoonitnow]

Cześć,

Witam wszystkich, chciałem się przedstawić na forum. Miłego dnia życzę.

Excellent contribution to the thread. We would also like to have you in the FTR Chat Room (see link in my signature).