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spoonitnow
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01-07-2009, 04:56 PM
Post subject: Your Approach to Improving Sucks (Chick Pic Inside)
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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The typical BC hand history is usually accompanied by something like, "wow I screwed up here." Then everyone says, "yeah you really screwed up here," and then it's left alone to die in the bowels of the Beginner's Circle along with a few hundred or thousand other shitty threads that no one learned shit from. The worst part is that you most likely aren't getting anything out of the posting of the hand in the first place because you never achieve any depth as to why you were making the mistakes you were making in the hand. The bottom line is that the problem isn't solved (or even acknowledged), and in a few days or weeks you'll post another hand where you're making the exact same types of mistakes, and you'll wonder why you aren't getting anywhere quickly in poker. So here let's figure out the why.
In one such thread, I replied with a link to this thread http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es-t80178.html and suggested that OP do some actual analysis on the plays made and form some ranges for his opponent on each street. OP replied with a much better explanation of the hand than he originally posted in the thread, but prefaced the post with "I suck at ranges."
And this made a light bulb go off in my head. This comment gave away something about OP's attitude towards learning Because you suffer from a really shitty state of mind (and as a result, approach) to working on this, I'm going to help you out. But first, check out this chick:
This is Carol Dweck. She's a professor of Psychology at Stanford, and she's pretty damn smart. Her research shows that if you say something like "I suck at ______" then when you were young, your parents and/or teachers probably forced you into being what she calls an "Entity Theorist". Our goal is to make a change to you having what she refers to as an Incremental View. Here's the difference.
Somewhere in South Dakota, little Johnny comes home and shows his dad that he made an A+ on a math test, his dad probably says, "OH YEAH MY LITTLE JOHNNY IS SO SMART WOOT!" Then the next week when little Johnny comes home and shows his dad that he made a D on an English test, his dad probably says, "YEAH YOUR MOM WAS NEVER GOOD AT ENGLISH SO IT'S PROBABLY NOT YOUR THING." This creates the notion that intelligence is a fixed entity, and does a lot of crazy shit to you that will manifest itself in lots of different ways. For our purposes, we're looking at someone saying "I suck at ranges" and then shying away from really working hard at getting better at dealing with ranges.
Now let's say little Johnny has a girlfriend named little Susie. When little Susie comes home and shows her mom that she made an A+ on a math test, her mom probably says, "OH YEAH MY LITTLE SUSIE WORKED SO HARD STUDYING FOR THIS TEST WOOT!". Then the next week when little Susie comes home and shows her mom that she made a D on an English test, her mom probably says, "WELL IF YOU STUDY MORE AND WORK HARD YOU'LL DO BETTER NEXT TIME." This creates the notion that intelligence is not a fixed entity, but instead something that can (and should) be improved with hard work.
Years later, little Susie grows some C-cups and starts hanging on on FTR posting 5nl hand histories and pictures of her ass. Little Johnny decides he'll start playing 5nl also. Someone tells little Susie in one of her hand history posts that she should put her opponent on a range. Little Susie tries to put her opponent on a range, and fails miserably. There is no feeling of the ego being hurt and no reason to back down from the challenge. Instead, little Susie is motivated and excited by the challenge and works her ass off getting better at putting people on ranges.
In a different 5nl post the same day, someone tells little Johnny that he should put his opponents on a range. He prefaces his reply with "Well I suck at ranges", notes multiple times during his half-assed attempt that he "sucks at ranges", and then finally ends his reply with "I suck at ranges." Because of his previous experiences, little Johnny is convinced that he sucks at ranges because he wasn't good at it the first time he tried.
Six months later, little Susie runs 6 ptbb/100 at 100nl over 50,000 hands, and little Johnny is breaking even at 10nl. Little Susie tells little Johnny to go fuck himself and starts hooking up with spoonitnow. The end.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...
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Chelle
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Two Pair
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: in the kitchen
Posts: 40
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LOL@ South Dakota
Oh yeah, and same subject was covered in The Art of Learning: A Journey in the Pursuit of Excellence by Josh Waitzkin.
It's also proven with a loooot of people who have the over-reaction when they don't get something right the first time have a hard time really pushing themselves, so then the fear of getting it wrong makes them not even want to try. Though of course failure is something that actually helps instead of harms.
I feel the same way. If I fail at something, emotionally I have to get over it, and I was always told when I was a kid, "Of course you're not good in blahblah subject, your mom/dad wasn't either" I think that if I was told, "Well, you just need to work harder next time" it would have changed a lot about how I think and react to things.
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I'm scared of IRC, everytime I go in there Chelle tells me she's going to fuck my dad in the ass.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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Does Chelle know about Suzy? Do the police know about suzy? Suzy can't be more than what? 15?
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,519
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Excellent post.
We are in far more control of our realities than we generally seem to acknowledge on a conscious or subconscious level.
Fatalistic attitudes do little more than to encourage stagnation, in many facets of life.
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Freeroller
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 62
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Legendary
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Nit at work; "I'll only grind what the grinders wont grind"
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ginozola
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 30
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This is a good post, mainly because it's all true. Every time I begin replying to something on this board I fight the urge to type "I'm not good at this but..." and then still ending up typing it anyway.
Sometimes you just have man up, have a new one torn by a reg, brush yourself down, ACTUALLY LEARN SOMETHING and move forward.
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kettleofish
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Helllllo Richard
Posts: 333
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That chick is haaaaaawt.
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There's only one system. Bet. Lose. Borrow. Steal. Lose. Take the drugs. Lose. Prison. Death.
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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I'm not good at not telling people what I'm not good at.
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Vinland
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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Nice post.
I think I can speak for some newer poker players (I hope I can anyway.)
I have trouble putting opponents on a range. When I do, I usually put them on a range that only beats what I hold.
I think this is two fold: I am not confident enough (because I'm inexperienced and because I am a conservative player approaching nit status (as are many new players)
So for example if I hold AQo in middle position and raise and am called by, say the button and the flop comes:
A,10,8
I put out a good sized value bet and he calls me or even re-raises me. I immediately put him on the following hole cards: AA, A10, 88, AK and nothing else. This is because if I were him (and he had my tight, if not nitty playing style) I wouldn't call with anything lower than AQ. Since I hold AQ, he probably has me beat!
See what I mean? I have trouble putting people on ranges because I stick my ultra tight requirements for calling on them and assume that if they are calling, they must have something real sweet that they are holding.
However, I don't suck at ranges,...I just need to work on it.
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vinland
Nice post.
I think I can speak for some newer poker players (I hope I can anyway.)
I have trouble putting opponents on a range. When I do, I usually put them on a range that only beats what I hold.
I think this is two fold: I am not confident enough (because I'm inexperienced and because I am a conservative player approaching nit status (as are many new players)
So for example if I hold AQo in middle position and raise and am called by, say the button and the flop comes:
I put out a good sized value bet and he calls me or even re-raises me. I immediately put him on the following hole cards: AA, A10, 88, AK and nothing else. This is because if I were him (and he had my tight, if not nitty playing style) I wouldn't call with anything lower than AQ. Since I hold AQ, he probably has me beat!
See what I mean? I have trouble putting people on ranges because I stick my ultra tight requirements for calling on them and assume that if they are calling, they must have something real sweet that they are holding.
However, I don't suck at ranges,...I just need to work on it.
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I think it was Brunson that said something to the effect of "poker's a game of people (not cards). Forget that, and you're dead money (fucked)."
Yeah your problem was / sometimes continues to be a problem of mine as well. I think it may have something to do with a phenomenon psychologists call the "false consensus bias." Basically, that you mistakenly believe that everyone believes the same shit that you do.
My advice is to start focusing more on your opponent's playing styles if you can. Don't play the same basic away against all opponents, but alter your play to take advantage of their particular weakness. Example: a guy plays weak post flop (gives up a lot if he misses). You should be more liberal with the cbets against this guy headsup.
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nice_aiau
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Posts: 260
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suzie is awesome.
Good post brosive
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celtic123
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: **Officially**The worst poster on FTR
Posts: 708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vinland
Nice post.
I think I can speak for some newer poker players (I hope I can anyway.)
I have trouble putting opponents on a range. When I do, I usually put them on a range that only beats what I hold.
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Yes yes yes.
..And sometimes, I call , cringe for a second, peek , and see sometimes, Ive actually won. They dont always have the killer cards I feared.
Being more open minded with range is a long learning curve for me.
Thanks again spoon again.
( suzies marital status ?)
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Words cannot describe how fucking awesome the entirety of that post is.. Cheers mate
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mrhappy333
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,078
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DUUUUUUUDE !!!
I was thinking about something similar to this yesterday. This is a great post.
I'm hopping this is my year, 2009!! Imma gonna try and change everything I know about pokers.
Great post.
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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Donklet
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 5
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Very good post indeed 
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amifat
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 92
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This post is fantastic. Many internets to spoonitnow.
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Blazing_Saddler
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Walsall
Posts: 65
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Susie's mom was a bit harsh imo. 
Great post
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Thank you Spoon. This post did open my eyes a bit.
This, plus the recent admission that players have to have thick skins to survive the BC due to the comments by some individuals has changed my approach as of now to posting in these forums.
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Sir Pawnalot
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 668
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Brilliant- as always.
I have been mining for gold and all I had to do was search for "spoonitnow" and read his posts.
Where is he now?
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A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Left. He has his own blog now on his own website.
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Sir Pawnalot
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 668
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Which site?
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A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Ehh... I'm not really sure but I think its like spoonitnow.com
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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This needs to be added to the digest IMO.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I missed this, but I've always felt that way about the operations forum. I much prefer to see titles like: "beat micros and move up" than "I suck and cant beat micros".
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Just playing to improve.
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shyguy03533
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 59
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sic post
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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rofl at shyguy post whoring
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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+1
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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not first
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
This needs to be added to the digest IMO.
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Just about every one of Spoons strategy and numbers posts ought to be moved up. The problem? Some people are so myopic they can't see past the layer of BS he spread IN THE COMMUNE to recognize the QUALITY of the stuff he posted IN PLACES DEDICATED TO STRATEGY AND NUMBERS.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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Sir Pawnalot
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 668
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I never met this Spoon guy.
Was he spreading BS?
That seems odd from the posts I have read.
Also this Dwarfman guy seemed intelligent. I saw he got banned and skimmed through his posts. Although he was a big twat sometimes, he had a lot to contribute with. When I read some of the comments you made (not you, but others oc) my stomach churned. It was not after a lot of really nasty comments he really turned into a dick and did not repay his loan etc.
We need those intelligent bastards around here. No need to bully them away. Let us all contribute to a friendlier community.
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A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
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I <3 spoon. No, seriously, he's helped me a lot. Those fuckers should have given him mod of the BC.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Modship is a responsibility, not a reward.
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Just playing to improve.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot
I never met this Spoon guy.
Was he spreading BS?
That seems odd from the posts I have read.
Also this Dwarfman guy seemed intelligent. I saw he got banned and skimmed through his posts. Although he was a big twat sometimes, he had a lot to contribute with. When I read some of the comments you made (not you, but others oc) my stomach churned. It was not after a lot of really nasty comments he really turned into a dick and did not repay his loan etc.
We need those intelligent bastards around here. No need to bully them away. Let us all contribute to a friendlier community. |
Yes, Spoon, as awesome as a guy he was, had some pretty harsh criticisms of people, he directly attacked a lot of people in some pretty mean ways. He had several blatant ad homs against spenda that IMO were unwarranted. It was a very serious accusation too.
--The argument being that Spenda isn't here to help us, but instead is here to babysit us and keep from annoying the good players and dropping the quality of the posts in the "real forums" If we can figure our own way out of the BC, then we'll get the real secrets in the rest of the forum. He even points a couple of times towards Spenda's involvement with Grinder school being a direct conflict of interest with also helping out the BC.
It's really too bad that Spoon wasn't made mod of BC, because he has put much more work into helping BC rise to the top than any other mod of the BC. Ever. Period.
Spenda, though, helps us and has delivered articles to help us, and has commented on topics to help us. He has made a contribution to the BC, rendering spoons accusations irrelevant.
Dwarfman, though, he made a huge mistake, and wouldn't own up. It was a transaction gone awry, and what does a gambler have if not his integrity? Nothing. HE got booted for being about an inch north of mentally retarded and not making good on a transaction that was serious, AND the way he treated the situation with serious non-chalantness about something 99% of the rest of the forum was very passionate about. X even tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but at that point he was acting so childish that X had no choice. _-- I digress
Spoon hasn't been banned, he's just pretty much fed up with the fact that he doesn't seem to get any love from the owners of a community that he's put so much heart and soul in. He's more than willing to help anyone he finds on IRC, and He's an MSN buddy of mine that is taking my game to new heights. Foster and develop the relationship elsewhere, because as it stands now, the guys probably not coming back.
Which is sad, because if FTR members go elsewhere for their advice, why would FTR continue to exist?
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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I was away from online poker and FTR when all this went down... Good post Ragnar4. Ironically, Spoon is one of the reasons I still post here. His posts and his attitude have helped me immensely. It's good to have people willing to challenge everyone and everything in the forum.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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HarleyGuy13
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,226
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Very good post as usual spoon. I keep thinking I wonder if it was me?? Well this gives me something else to work on along with putting my nose on weird objects periodically. Thanks for the thought provoking post.
I get a lot of help from spoons through IRC and his blog.
Does little Chelle have C cups???
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"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it |
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Bump
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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I suck at trying. I'll leave this advice for the others
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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seriously though. great post
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas. |
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birdman417
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04-22-2009, 04:37 PM
Post subject: vinland is the shit
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#39 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: US
Posts: 82
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Vinland is the bomb..
his problem is exactly my problem..and i/we are gonna kick ass working on it..
nuff said
Bird
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amir is cool
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 108
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When I got a D on my English test, my mother beat the hell out of me.
Hell it could have been an A-, anything below A+ warranted an asskicking.
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Quote:
[21:38] <dranger> WTF HAPPENED WHEN I WENT TO BOOT CAMP
[21:40] <kiwiMark> THERE IS A NEW PRESIDENT OF THE UNITES STATES CALLED BARACK OBAMA AND HE'S NOT VERY WHITE
[21:40] <kiwiMark> THIS IS NOT A LEVEL.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13
Very good post as usual spoon. I keep thinking I wonder if it was me?? Well this gives me something else to work on along with putting my nose on weird objects periodically. Thanks for the thought provoking post.
I get a lot of help from spoons through IRC and his blog.
Does little Chelle have C cups???
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B but she's also 4'11" so it would easily be a C on normal-sized people.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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UnbelievableJeff
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BANNED
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
Dwarfman, though, he made a huge mistake, and wouldn't own up. It was a transaction gone awry, and what does a gambler have if not his integrity? Nothing. HE got booted for being about an inch north of mentally retarded and not making good on a transaction that was serious, AND the way he treated the situation with serious non-chalantness about something 99% of the rest of the forum was very passionate about. X even tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but at that point he was acting so childish that X had no choice. _-- I digress
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I wouldn't say I dealt with it nonchalantly. If I had, there may not have been such a furore.
I also think 'an inch north of mentally retarded' is a little pre-meditated
By the by, I repaid the debt. I did make good on the transaction.
Many thanks.
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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I'm glad this was bumped.. great post Spoon.
Now I can't say "I suck at math" anymore. I have to actually work on it.
Damn you
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amir is cool
When I got a D on my English test, my mother beat the hell out of me.
Hell it could have been an A-, anything below A+ warranted an asskicking.
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so true.. so true..
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amifat
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
B but she's also 4'11" so it would easily be a C on normal-sized people.
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For real? How tall are you.
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♦♣♥♠ "Common sence isn't really that common" ♦♣♥♠
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supa
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 986
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It's f'n amazing that a post from a year and a half ago gets bumped just when I need it.Nice hand,great thread,awesome site.I don't know if I'd been drawn to this site if it weren't for Spoons posts,threads,articles...Good work and thanks for helping me become a better poker player.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amifat
For real? How tall are you.
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5'9" 165 lbs
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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rpm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: learnin'
Posts: 2,039
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bc motivational thread link? i think this idea is pretty central in people's lack of progress. not just in poker but any pursuit. nice post noops
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tomato paste carnage
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: in a van down by the river
Posts: 115
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This was a very nice re-read for me, especially having just taken a small break from poker.
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Tilt is poker cancer. You catch it, you die.
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bhaley66
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: washington
Posts: 150
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I love this post...
Growing up, this was more or less the motto in our house. "Its all about give a shit", and I believe that, and try to live everything in my life that way. If you give a shit enough, and want to bad enough damn near anything is possible...
Even though I have known all of this my entire life, I have never heard it put this way, this was a great read...
thanks
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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