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What´s a range, Dad?

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  1. #1
    XTR1000's Avatar
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    Default What´s a range, Dad?

    What´s a range, Dad?

    Alright this is going to be long and detailed and quiet boring for everyone who´s been around for more than two weeks. This guide is aimed at new posters and it´s meant to enable you posting hands to which you will get constructive replies.

    It is fairly common to put our opponents at a table on a range of hands rather than guessing one or two likely holdings for him. It won´t take long to understand this concept, but it will take a lot of time and effort to fully internalize and apply it. If however you spend some time playing around with ranges, understand how they are working, how they alter over position, players, streets, actions and whatnot you´re on your way out of the BC.

    The general principle is as follows:

    o Before any action is taken every player has a range of 100% of hands minus those combinations your own hole cards are blocking (ie villian can´t hold AhAc when you´re holding AcKc)

    o A players range changes with every action he takes. A player has one range to call a flop bet and another to raise it, yet another to fold to a bet.

    o A players range can only get narrower over the course of a hand. Hands which aren´t included in his preflop range can´t be in a river-raising-range. Now this sounds easy and logical, but look around how often inexperienced players do actually guess hands on the river which arent making sense when we consider earlier streets. You can also generally expect ranges to exclude one another, ie if a person does usually raise a top pair on the flop we can discount those holding from his calling-range (this changes as players get better and competition gets harder but you prob won´t have to worry about it much below 1kNL)

    o Keep in mind that the wider a range we assign, the more likely it is for his "true" range to be a subset of the range we gave him. This means that the fewer hands you include in a range, the more likely that range is to be incorrect and vice versa.

    o Ranges are depending on twelve million factors. Some of them are
    - Type of player
    - His position
    - Table dynamics
    - Board texture
    - His perception of other ranges
    - Actions he is responding to
    - Stack sizes

    So how does it work in practice?

    First and foremost you are getting pokerstove. Get it now and don´t come back here before it is installed on your comp.



    That´s the pokerstove main window. For the rest of this post we will be working with pokerstove and the following hand as example

    CO ($23)
    Hero (Button) ($115.95)
    SB ($121.30)
    BB ($108.20)
    UTG ($24.20)
    MP ($100)

    Preflop: Hero is Button with 7, A
    3 folds, Hero bets $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1

    Flop: ($4.50) 6, 10, K (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets $4, BB calls $4

    Turn: ($12.50) A (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero checks

    River: ($12.50) Q (2 players)
    BB bets $7

    Hero faces two fairly passive players in the blinds. SB shows 19/19 over 59, BB shows 25/13 over 59. The BB has 3bet us once, while we were stealing moderately wide. To keep this post below many many words we let the SB aside and see what the BB does, using the little information we have on him.

    The amazing thing about pstove is that it visualizes ranges. You just click on the "Player X" button (1) and then select the "Preflop"-Tab to see this window



    Holdings are selected or put in a range by clicking on them. For every holding you will also get to select, how many of the possible combos you want to include, by clicking on the combos represented by their suits in the bottom right. This is particularly important when we are a) not sure whether or not a hand should be included and we just want to include half of the combos or so and b) when our hole cards or the board block certain combos (read spoons article on blocking combos here).

    If you consider yourself entirely illiterate with ranges, you can start by using the slider at the bottom to select the (in theoryland) top X% of hands and go from there.

    In our example we need to figure out a range the villian would call our raise with first. All we know is that he fits the description of a small stakes regtag with a 20ish vpip, he perceives us as fairly aggressive, he will be out of position, playing a full 100BB stack, there´s no one left behind to act, he already 3bet me, he´s getting a decent price and I can possibly be a weird or weak player because minraising is quiet uncommon and fishy at these stakes. Asking stove for 20% we get

    {66+,A4s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo}

    which isn´t accurate but a decent basis to start out with. Let´s include 22-55 as well and exclude TT-AA, AQs+, AK of which we can be fairly sure he´d be 3betting for value. I would personally discount QTo, KTo, A9o and include 43s-87s. So we´re at

    {99-22,AJs-A4s,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,43s,AQo-A9o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo}

    To find out how our hand performs against his range we fill in our holding under "Player 2" and enter the board cards. Hitting "Evaluate" gives the following output

    Code:
    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
    
     205,920  games     0.061 secs     3,375,737  games/sec
    
    Board: Kd Ts 6d
    Dead:  
    
    	equity 	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
    Hand 0: 	71.326%  	68.98% 	02.35% 	        142043 	     4830.50   { 99-22, AJs-A4s, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, AQo-A9o, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
    Hand 1: 	28.674%  	26.33% 	02.35% 	         54216 	     4830.50   { As7s }
    Giving us 28% equity.

    Now we need to figure out a range he´d be checking with and lacking a read on his leading frequencies we assume he checks his entire range.

    What happens when we bet this flop?

    Suprisingly his formerly solid range splits in three. One which folds, another which calls, yet another which raises.

    o Folds: 22-55, half of 77-99, no draw 43s-98s, no draw A high

    o Continues (either calls or raises): This is where all the clicking begins, we now have to de-select all hands which fold. This is annoying work, because you´ll have to de-select all non-flushdraw combos manually. Since things are getting closer you must also pay attention to de-select all combos including the board cards and our hole cards.

    By counting hand combos and calculating our EV we can already see whether or not a cbet is in order on this flop vs that range, but I´m too lazy right now and this post isn´t about ev calcs.

    Anyway, the villian calls, which again narrows his range. We can now discout sets and two pair holdings, 66, KT. We can probably also discount most of the big combo draws such as QdJd, Qd9d, Jd9d and the like, at least some of the nutflushdraws as well. (Yes you got it, we discount those as he´s likely to check/raise them)

    The turncard takes away the remaining nutflushdraws he could be holding narrowing it down to

    {9d9h,9d9s,9h9s,8c8h,8d8h,8d8s,8h8s,7c7d,7c7h,7d7h ,AcTc,AhTh,KcQc,KhQh,KsQs,KcJc,KhJh,
    KsJs,QcTc,QhTh,JcTc,JhTh,JsTs,Td9d,9d8d,8d7d,5d4d, 4d3d,AcTd,AcTh,AdTc,AdTh,AhTc,AhTd,
    KcQd,KcQh,KcQs,KhQc,KhQd,KhQs,KsQc,KsQd,KsQh,KcJd, KcJh,KcJs,KhJc,KhJd,KhJs,KsJc,KsJd,KsJh,KcTd,
    KcTh,KhTc,KhTd,KsTc,KsTd,KsTh,QJo,QcTd,QcTh,QdTc,Q dTh,QhTc,QhTd,QsTc,QsTd,QsTh,JTo}

    A range made up of many one pair holdings and few weak flushes by now. Turn actions dont yield much information and we see the river.

    By now you should be able to figure out his river leading range on your own.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred View Post
    xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
    yo
  2. #2
    daviddem's Avatar
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    Great post. Mods sticky this or make it an article please.
  3. #3
    Thanks, XTR. Very relevant to where I'm at personally.
  4. #4
    I just skimmed through but this looks like a really good post and should be a must read for anyone just getting started in poker.
  5. #5
    So, are we supposed to analyse our hands in Pokerstove and then memorise the ranges for when we are actually playing? Or is this something you can use during play?
    [20:19] <Zill4> god
    [20:19] <Zill4> u guys
    [20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
    [20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
  6. #6
    !Luck's Avatar
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    Easy,

    Eventually you will get a feel for the ranges and wont do stupid stuff like going all in with pocket 77s on a 254 flop against a preflop aggressor.

    !luck
  7. #7
    rong's Avatar
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    Cool post. Helps explain the thought process. But there's still no need to lay into noobs when they don't do this. It's dam hard putting an opponent on a range sometimes, hell most of the time, especially for newer players. It's what I struggle with most. When I'm 10 or 20 hands into a table, I have absolutely no idea what a players range may be. I have a fair idea what a tight players probably should be, but thats about it. And most people at 5nl probably don't play that tight, so I get lost fast.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  8. #8
    XTR1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanAronG
    Cool post. Helps explain the thought process. But there's still no need to lay into noobs when they don't do this. It's dam hard putting an opponent on a range sometimes, hell most of the time, especially for newer players. It's what I struggle with most. When I'm 10 or 20 hands into a table, I have absolutely no idea what a players range may be. I have a fair idea what a tight players probably should be, but thats about it. And most people at 5nl probably don't play that tight, so I get lost fast.
    The good news is, that assigning a range itself doesn´t have to fulfill any requirements how exact that range should be. Apparently, 99% of hands posted on the internets can be broken down to a question of which range the opponent has in the spot the poster in unsure of. If we were discussing nothing but ranges here, we´d all be 100nl regs in no time.

    More to the point: See that thread regarding small suited aces. One can go ahead and ask "how should I play small suited aces? sometimes I raise them". That question means essentially "versus what ranges can I raise small suited aces preflop in which position?" and the answer would be "you´d require oponnents left to act, which are unlikely to 3bet (ie tight 3betting ranges) and either fold a lot preflop (ie tight calling ranges) or fold a lot on flop to continued aggression (ie tight continuing ranges) or something the like.

    The theory of ranges is no black magic or some advanced pro technique. It´s the very essence of poker along with sklanky´s fundamental theorem.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred View Post
    xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
    yo
  9. #9
    Noobs need lessons in how to phrase a questions correctly , too avoid getting badly beaten up.
  10. #10
    rong's Avatar
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    OK, here’s an idea, let’s look at this from a different perspective, this will certainly help me.

    Below is a hand from a table I’ve been sitting at for 10 or maybe 15 hands. No reads yet. I am not involved in the hand, but we get some info on a player. And on the strength of this info, I’m hoping we can get an idea for ranges for him for future preflop plays.
    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    MP2 ($4.37)
    CO ($8.30)
    Button ($9.79)
    SB ($4.62)
    Hero (BB) ($4.95)
    UTG ($6.73)
    MP1 ($13.17)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with ,
    2 folds, MP2 calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero checks

    Flop: ($0.22) , , (4 players)
    Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button checks

    Turn: ($0.22) (4 players)
    Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button checks

    River: ($0.22) (4 players)
    Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button checks

    Total pot: $0.22 | Rake: $0

    Results:
    Button had Q, 10 (one pair, Queens).
    Hero had 2, 8 (one pair, twos).
    MP2 had 7, 7 (one pair, sevens).
    CO mucked 10, 8 (high card, Queen).
    Outcome: Button won $0.22

    So let’s just focus on the button. He flops TPGK yet checks all the way. Assume he hasn’t played another hand. I would have been raising the flop, no idea if that’s right, but hey, unimportant here. So, based on this little bit of info about a player, and let’s just assume he was paying attention and this is how he would always play this situation, can we somewhat catagorise him and therefore put him on some ranges for each position preflop. And if so, what would you suggest as ranges for him if raising 4bb when folded to for each of UTG, MP & the button? I appreciate the little info we have isn’t a lot, but I guess we have to infer things from a little info. Is this even feasible? Or am I approaching this wrong?
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  11. #11
    rong's Avatar
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    Or alternatively, another hand where we see someones cards. UTG prob gives us most info so focus on him. Again about 10 hands in and villain hasn't played a hand before this one. Again, what read would you get on this player based on this info, and as such, what preflop range would you assign him if he is folded to in each of the following positions and raises 4bb. Either UTG, MP or on the button.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    BB ($2.50)
    UTG ($4.32)
    UTG+1 ($8)
    MP1 ($10.08)
    MP2 ($4.60)
    Hero (CO) ($4.88)
    Button ($6.66)
    SB ($13.39)

    Preflop: Hero is CO with ,
    UTG calls $0.05, UTG+1 calls $0.05, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.05, Hero calls $0.05, 2 folds, BB checks

    Flop: ($0.27) , , (5 players)
    BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $0.05, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.05, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.05

    Turn: ($0.42) (3 players)
    UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $0.05, Hero calls $0.05, UTG calls $0.05

    River: ($0.57) (3 players)
    UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

    Total pot: $0.57 | Rake: $0

    Results:
    UTG had A, Q (one pair, Queens).
    UTG+1 didn't show
    Hero didn't show 9, 10 (nothing).
    Outcome: $0.57 returned to UTG
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  12. #12
    EDIT, ref-the first hand
    Intresting, I would have a lot of difficulty dealing with ranges on this board. , everybody checked , so no-body was really chasing anything.So for that reason, and that reason alone, Im out.

    what does occur too me though , its off to topic, so ill white it out,

    MP+2 didnt raise with 77and the BTN didnt raise with QTs. Id say the table was way too passive. and am wary of people who slowplay.
  13. #13
    lolzzz_321's Avatar
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    Beginning players might consider using PokerRanges to calculate ranges. The interface is 100% visual and super easy to use.

    http://www.pokerranges.com/

    Here is an example using Xtr's range:
    100,000 iterations from free Poker Odds-Calculator at PokerRanges.com:

    Hero's hand: A 7 | Board: K 6 T
    Range: A9-AJ, KT+, QT+, 22-99, JcAc, JdAd, JhAh, JsAs, TcAc, TdAd, ThAh, TsAs, 9cAc, 9dAd, 9hAh, 9sAs, 8cAc, 8dAd, 8hAh, 8sAs, 7cAc, 7dAd, 7hAh, 7sAs, 6cAc, 6dAd, 6hAh, 6sAs, 5cAc, 5dAd, 5hAh, 5sAs, 4cAc, 4dAd, 4hAh, 4sAs, QcKc, QdKd, QhKh, QsKs, JcKc, JdKd, JhKh, JsKs, TcKc, TdKd, ThKh, TsKs, 9cKc, 9dKd, 9hKh, 9sKs, 8cKc, 8dKd, 8hKh, 8sKs, JcQc, JdQd, JhQh, JsQs, TcQc, TdQd, ThQh, TsQs, 9cQc, 9dQd, 9hQh, 9sQs, TcJc, TdJd, ThJh, TsJs, 9cJc, 9dJd, 9hJh, 9sJs, 9cTc, 9dTd, 9hTh, 9sTs, 8c9c, 8d9d, 8h9h, 8s9s, 7c8c, 7d8d, 7h8h, 7s8s, 6c7c, 6d7d, 6h7h, 6s7s, 5c6c, 5d6d, 5h6h, 5s6s, 4c5c, 4d5d, 4h5h, 4s5s, 3c4c, 3d4d, 3h4h, 3s4s

    Overall Odds:
    Win: 27.3%
    Tie: 4.9%
    Lose: 67.8%

    Detailed odds:
    55: win 32.74% tie 0.00% lose 67.26%
    66: win 5.86% tie 0.00% lose 94.14%
    77: win 19.17% tie 1.52% lose 79.32%
    88: win 19.51% tie 0.00% lose 80.49%
    99: win 19.32% tie 0.00% lose 80.68%
    22: win 32.58% tie 0.00% lose 67.42%
    33: win 32.51% tie 0.00% lose 67.49%
    44: win 32.54% tie 0.00% lose 67.46%
    6c5c: win 30.33% tie 0.00% lose 69.67%
    6h5h: win 30.00% tie 0.00% lose 70.00%
    6s5s: win 28.62% tie 0.00% lose 71.38%
    Ac5c: win 51.13% tie 37.43% lose 11.44%
    Ad5d: win 31.11% tie 24.68% lose 44.21%
    Ah5h: win 50.75% tie 37.76% lose 11.49%
    7c6c: win 20.98% tie 1.31% lose 77.71%
    7h6h: win 20.58% tie 1.44% lose 77.98%
    Ac6c: win 17.86% tie 3.62% lose 78.52%
    Ah6h: win 18.20% tie 3.62% lose 78.18%
    8c7c: win 71.74% tie 1.00% lose 27.26%
    8d7d: win 46.50% tie 0.92% lose 52.58%
    8h7h: win 71.94% tie 1.00% lose 27.06%
    Ac7c: win 4.39% tie 95.61% lose 0.00%
    Ad7d: win 4.41% tie 59.99% lose 35.60%
    Ah7h: win 4.51% tie 95.49% lose 0.00%
    9c8c: win 67.74% tie 0.00% lose 32.26%
    9d8d: win 43.07% tie 0.00% lose 56.93%
    9h8h: win 67.95% tie 0.00% lose 32.05%
    9s8s: win 66.66% tie 0.00% lose 33.34%
    Kc8c: win 18.78% tie 0.00% lose 81.22%
    Kh8h: win 18.89% tie 0.00% lose 81.11%
    Ks8s: win 17.68% tie 0.00% lose 82.32%
    Ac8c: win 16.28% tie 31.45% lose 52.27%
    Ad8d: win 11.04% tie 21.01% lose 67.95%
    Ah8h: win 16.55% tie 31.55% lose 51.90%
    Tc9c: win 18.75% tie 0.00% lose 81.25%
    Td9d: win 12.29% tie 0.00% lose 87.71%
    Th9h: win 19.01% tie 0.00% lose 80.99%
    Kc9c: win 18.77% tie 0.00% lose 81.23%
    Kh9h: win 18.83% tie 0.00% lose 81.17%
    Ks9s: win 17.22% tie 0.00% lose 82.78%
    Ac9c: win 16.17% tie 24.95% lose 58.88%
    Ad9c: win 15.48% tie 24.84% lose 59.68%
    Ah9c: win 16.15% tie 25.32% lose 58.53%
    Ac9d: win 15.42% tie 24.63% lose 59.95%
    Ad9d: win 11.11% tie 17.66% lose 71.23%
    Ah9d: win 15.20% tie 25.04% lose 59.76%
    Ac9h: win 16.32% tie 24.92% lose 58.76%
    Ad9h: win 15.51% tie 24.71% lose 59.78%
    Ah9h: win 16.56% tie 25.06% lose 58.38%
    Ac9s: win 15.32% tie 24.93% lose 59.75%
    Ad9s: win 14.63% tie 25.23% lose 60.14%
    Ah9s: win 15.48% tie 25.49% lose 59.03%
    JcTc: win 17.54% tie 0.00% lose 82.46%
    JdTd: win 11.55% tie 0.00% lose 88.45%
    JhTh: win 17.89% tie 0.00% lose 82.11%
    QcTc: win 17.72% tie 0.00% lose 82.28%
    QdTc: win 17.36% tie 0.00% lose 82.64%
    QhTc: win 17.45% tie 0.00% lose 82.55%
    QsTc: win 16.71% tie 0.00% lose 83.29%
    QcTd: win 17.19% tie 0.00% lose 82.81%
    QdTd: win 11.48% tie 0.00% lose 88.52%
    QhTd: win 16.90% tie 0.00% lose 83.10%
    QsTd: win 16.30% tie 0.00% lose 83.70%
    QcTh: win 17.66% tie 0.00% lose 82.34%
    QdTh: win 16.88% tie 0.00% lose 83.12%
    QhTh: win 17.72% tie 0.00% lose 82.28%
    QsTh: win 16.73% tie 0.00% lose 83.27%
    KcTc: win 9.17% tie 0.00% lose 90.83%
    KhTc: win 9.12% tie 0.00% lose 90.88%
    KsTc: win 9.27% tie 0.00% lose 90.73%
    KcTd: win 9.02% tie 0.00% lose 90.98%
    KhTd: win 8.76% tie 0.00% lose 91.24%
    KsTd: win 9.03% tie 0.00% lose 90.97%
    KcTh: win 8.83% tie 0.00% lose 91.17%
    KhTh: win 8.71% tie 0.00% lose 91.29%
    KsTh: win 8.85% tie 0.00% lose 91.15%
    AcTc: win 6.14% tie 2.18% lose 91.68%
    AdTc: win 5.95% tie 2.09% lose 91.96%
    AhTc: win 6.33% tie 2.28% lose 91.39%
    AcTd: win 6.06% tie 2.18% lose 91.76%
    AdTd: win 5.21% tie 1.43% lose 93.36%
    AhTd: win 6.15% tie 2.00% lose 91.85%
    AcTh: win 6.05% tie 2.11% lose 91.84%
    AdTh: win 6.03% tie 2.21% lose 91.76%
    AhTh: win 6.35% tie 2.21% lose 91.44%
    QdJc: win 51.94% tie 0.00% lose 48.06%
    QhJc: win 53.64% tie 0.00% lose 46.36%
    QsJc: win 53.20% tie 0.00% lose 46.80%
    QcJd: win 51.55% tie 0.00% lose 48.45%
    QhJd: win 51.76% tie 0.00% lose 48.24%
    QsJd: win 50.79% tie 0.00% lose 49.21%
    QcJh: win 53.83% tie 0.00% lose 46.17%
    QdJh: win 52.28% tie 0.00% lose 47.72%
    QsJh: win 53.60% tie 0.00% lose 46.40%
    QcJs: win 53.19% tie 0.00% lose 46.81%
    QdJs: win 50.91% tie 0.00% lose 49.09%
    QhJs: win 53.23% tie 0.00% lose 46.77%
    KcJc: win 17.34% tie 0.00% lose 82.66%
    KhJc: win 17.43% tie 0.00% lose 82.57%
    KsJc: win 16.53% tie 0.00% lose 83.47%
    KcJd: win 17.14% tie 0.00% lose 82.86%
    KhJd: win 16.68% tie 0.00% lose 83.32%
    KsJd: win 16.00% tie 0.00% lose 84.00%
    KcJh: win 17.63% tie 0.00% lose 82.37%
    KhJh: win 17.83% tie 0.00% lose 82.17%
    KsJh: win 16.72% tie 0.00% lose 83.28%
    KcJs: win 17.33% tie 0.00% lose 82.67%
    KhJs: win 16.76% tie 0.00% lose 83.24%
    KsJs: win 16.01% tie 0.00% lose 83.99%
    AcJc: win 16.61% tie 5.65% lose 77.74%
    AdJc: win 15.73% tie 5.64% lose 78.63%
    AhJc: win 16.67% tie 5.48% lose 77.85%
    AcJd: win 15.91% tie 5.58% lose 78.51%
    AdJd: win 11.07% tie 4.68% lose 84.25%
    AhJd: win 16.03% tie 5.52% lose 78.45%
    AcJh: win 16.76% tie 5.48% lose 77.76%
    AdJh: win 15.74% tie 5.58% lose 78.68%
    AhJh: win 17.06% tie 5.69% lose 77.25%
    AcJs: win 15.85% tie 5.61% lose 78.54%
    AdJs: win 14.79% tie 5.78% lose 79.43%
    AhJs: win 15.78% tie 5.73% lose 78.49%
    KcQc: win 17.56% tie 0.00% lose 82.44%
    KhQc: win 17.68% tie 0.00% lose 82.32%
    KsQc: win 17.02% tie 0.00% lose 82.98%
    KcQd: win 16.90% tie 0.00% lose 83.10%
    KhQd: win 16.63% tie 0.00% lose 83.37%
    KsQd: win 16.17% tie 0.00% lose 83.83%
    KcQh: win 17.76% tie 0.00% lose 82.24%
    KhQh: win 17.85% tie 0.00% lose 82.15%
    KsQh: win 16.97% tie 0.00% lose 83.03%
    KcQs: win 17.15% tie 0.00% lose 82.85%
    KhQs: win 16.74% tie 0.00% lose 83.26%
    KsQs: win 15.91% tie 0.00% lose 84.09%
    4c3c: win 77.72% tie 0.00% lose 22.28%
    4d3d: win 47.15% tie 0.00% lose 52.85%
    4h3h: win 77.21% tie 0.00% lose 22.79%
    4s3s: win 75.83% tie 0.00% lose 24.17%
    5c4c: win 76.38% tie 0.00% lose 23.62%
    5d4d: win 46.58% tie 0.00% lose 53.42%
    5h4h: win 76.30% tie 0.00% lose 23.70%
    5s4s: win 74.51% tie 0.00% lose 25.49%
    Ac4c: win 51.45% tie 37.44% lose 11.11%
    Ad4d: win 31.40% tie 24.53% lose 44.07%
    Ah4h: win 51.06% tie 37.52% lose 11.42%
    J9s: win 59.30% tie 0.00% lose 40.70%
    Q9s: win 59.17% tie 0.00% lose 40.83%
    QJs: win 48.55% tie 0.00% lose 51.45%


    Nice post XTR!
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by !Luck
    Easy,

    Eventually you will get a feel for the ranges and wont do stupid stuff like going all in with pocket 77s on a 254 flop against a preflop aggressor.

    !luck
    Haha, I don't do that now unless I'm seriously tilted.
  15. #15
    Great post XTR, really good read overall.
  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyPoker
    Quote Originally Posted by !Luck
    Easy,

    Eventually you will get a feel for the ranges and wont do stupid stuff like going all in with pocket 77s on a 254 flop against a preflop aggressor.

    !luck
    Haha, I don't do that now unless I'm seriously tilted.
    If this thread is supposed to learn you anything it better be that you never think about poker in that way again... like "I'm not going to do x with y on z board.
    Shoving might be correct in that spot.


  17. #17
    lol yeah, the irony is a lot
    [20:19] <Zill4> god
    [20:19] <Zill4> u guys
    [20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
    [20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar
    Quote Originally Posted by EasyPoker
    Quote Originally Posted by !Luck
    Easy,

    Eventually you will get a feel for the ranges and wont do stupid stuff like going all in with pocket 77s on a 254 flop against a preflop aggressor.

    !luck
    Haha, I don't do that now unless I'm seriously tilted.
    If this thread is supposed to learn you anything it better be that you never think about poker in that way again... like "I'm not going to do x with y on z board.
    Shoving might be correct in that spot.
    Exactly what I was thinking.
  19. #19
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    DanAarong, I know where you are coming from with these questions. At the micros you often do not have proper reads/stats on players because the turnover at the table is high and the field of players is huge.

    Now when I do not have a read at all on a player, I start by assuming that he plays the same ranges I do, maybe a bit looser than that to better approach the average micro player. Then I adjust over time.

    Another thing you can do is look them up on pokertableratings.com to get a sense of whether they are winning players and whether they are tight or loose, passive or aggressive. Basically the same thing you do for your SNG opponents with sharkscope. When I sit at a table, I personally look up the two players to my left and the two to my right while I wait for the blind to hit me. Then I look up the ones who stand out by their actions.

    Now your guy in hand 2 who limps AQ UTG seems to be either a super-passive who limps everything except say AK and pocket pairs JJ+ as a starting range, or a dumbo who thinks it's clever to trap in early position with all his decent hands, or (unlikely at the micros) a TAGG at an aggressive table who is trying to semi-bluff trap UTG, representing an AA or KK (TAGGs occasionally limp/re-raise in EP with high pocket pairs at aggressive tables). So without further information, I would assume that he is category 1, and that he raises only QQ+ or AK in any position (can't assume this kind of player to be positionally aware).

    But to illustrate the difficulty of correctly putting people on ranges at the micros, here is a hand I played two days ago:

    Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    saw flop | saw showdown

    SB ($2.30)
    BB ($1.50)
    UTG ($0.53)
    UTG+1 ($0.22)
    MP1 ($1.19)
    Villain (MP2) ($2.29)
    Hero (MP3) ($2.99)
    CO ($2.06)
    Button ($2.01)

    Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K, K
    UTG calls $0.02, 2 folds, Villain bets $0.05, Hero raises to $0.18, 4 folds, UTG calls $0.16, Villain calls $0.13

    Flop: ($0.57) 5, 6, 6 (3 players)
    UTG checks, Villain bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Villain calls $0.40

    Turn: ($1.57) 2 (2 players)
    Villain checks, Hero bets $1, Villain raises to $1.61 (All-In), Hero calls $0.61

    River: ($4.79) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

    Total pot: $4.79 | Rake: $0.31

    He had just arrived at the table and I had had no time to look him up on pokertableratings yet. Small raise in mid-position + call a re-raise, so after the preflop action, I put him on 22+, AQ+. I could maybe exclude QQ+ because he would have 4-bet, but hell, who knows, this is the micros so keep them in there. On the flop, he makes that silly small bet which is either an attempt at a blocking bet or he has a good hand and is trying to pretend he is weak to induce a raise. After he called my raise, I put him on 55+, although I know full well that some guys at the micros can't let go of their AK type of hand. Regardless, I still am a massive favorite against that range, whether AK is in his range or not. So I fire the turn again, because I don't see how that 2 could have improved him. When he raises all-in, there is no way I am folding of course: the odds are way too good. I was expecting to be shown soemthing like trip 5's or AA or QQ. But no... this!

    Results:
    Villain had A, J (one pair, sixes).
    Hero had K, K (two pair, Kings and sixes).
    Outcome: Hero won $4.48

    How could I possibly have guessed his range correctly???? I have no idea what can possibly go on in this guy's head for him to take this line...

    Anyway, I looked him up after, and he is a super-loose, super-aggressive, massively loosing (-25BB/100 - yes that is big bet, so -50bb/100 hands), over 13,000 hands. If I had known that, I *might* have included that AJs in his range...
  20. #20
    the irony is indeed a lot
  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by oskar
    Quote Originally Posted by EasyPoker
    Quote Originally Posted by !Luck
    Easy,

    Eventually you will get a feel for the ranges and wont do stupid stuff like going all in with pocket 77s on a 254 flop against a preflop aggressor.

    !luck
    Haha, I don't do that now unless I'm seriously tilted.
    If this thread is supposed to teach you anything it better be that you never think about poker in that way again... like "I'm not going to do x with y on z board.
    Shoving might be correct in that spot.


  22. #22
    To the guys who are saying that its impossible to put villain's on a range, reread XTR's 2nd post again. He states that the range you give doesn't have to be exact. You're going to miss some hands that make no sense. Like that AJ hand. 55+ is a reasonable range to put the villain on there, for 2nl or whatever. You are never going to put him on AJ here pretty much ever, yet sometimes they will show up with it. If they show up with a hand that just came out of left field or something, just shrug it off and note that he's liable to spew with trash, and that he calls 3bets pretty wide OOP so you can 3bet him wider for value, etc.
  23. #23
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    To the guys who are saying that its impossible to put villain's on a range, reread XTR's 2nd post again. He states that the range you give doesn't have to be exact. You're going to miss some hands that make no sense. Like that AJ hand. 55+ is a reasonable range to put the villain on there, for 2nl or whatever. You are never going to put him on AJ here pretty much ever, yet sometimes they will show up with it. If they show up with a hand that just came out of left field or something, just shrug it off and note that he's liable to spew with trash, and that he calls 3bets pretty wide OOP so you can 3bet him wider for value, etc.
    Yes fair enough. I certainly did not want to convey that it is futile to put your opponent on a range at the micros, or that one should assume that opp's range at the micros can ALWAYS be anything, or that all villains at the micros take that kind of line. Just pointing out that I come across the above spewtard type regularly (and it's great for my winrate obviously). On the other hand, they have occasionally managed to make me lay down the best hand...
  24. #24
    Continue to lay down the best hand and don't sweat over doing it. Yes, a non 0% of the time they will have bluffed you, but often enough you will be beaten. Often enough that you will be more frustrated by your losses than by the time you catch them.
  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanAronG
    OK, here’s an idea, let’s look at this from a different perspective, this will certainly help me.

    Below is a hand from a table I’ve been sitting at for 10 or maybe 15 hands. No reads yet. I am not involved in the hand, but we get some info on a player. And on the strength of this info, I’m hoping we can get an idea for ranges for him for future preflop plays.
    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    MP2 ($4.37)
    CO ($8.30)
    Button ($9.79)
    SB ($4.62)
    Hero (BB) ($4.95)
    UTG ($6.73)
    MP1 ($13.17)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with ,
    2 folds, MP2 calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero checks

    Flop: ($0.22) , , (4 players)
    Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button checks

    Turn: ($0.22) (4 players)
    Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button checks

    River: ($0.22) (4 players)
    Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button checks

    Total pot: $0.22 | Rake: $0

    Results:
    Button had Q, 10 (one pair, Queens).
    Hero had 2, 8 (one pair, twos).
    MP2 had 7, 7 (one pair, sevens).
    CO mucked 10, 8 (high card, Queen).
    Outcome: Button won $0.22

    So let’s just focus on the button. He flops TPGK yet checks all the way. Assume he hasn’t played another hand. I would have been raising the flop, no idea if that’s right, but hey, unimportant here. So, based on this little bit of info about a player, and let’s just assume he was paying attention and this is how he would always play this situation, can we somewhat catagorise him and therefore put him on some ranges for each position preflop. And if so, what would you suggest as ranges for him if raising 4bb when folded to for each of UTG, MP & the button? I appreciate the little info we have isn’t a lot, but I guess we have to infer things from a little info. Is this even feasible? Or am I approaching this wrong?

    DAG,

    putting people on a range is the easiet thing in the world. Having the range you put your opponent on matching his "true" range is the hard part. Extreme and maybe eye opening example is putting everyone on 100% of hands (minus combos blocked by cards seen) in which case the villians true range is absolutely always a subset of his estimated range. Frankly tho, theres a huge overlay in our estimated range, which may lead to us drawing the wrong conclusions.

    The hand you posted is a decent example. It demonstrates, where many less experienced players struggle with range theory - it´s not easy to create and visualize/base decisions on multiple very wide ranges.

    For your example, do the exercise yourself:

    o Begin with every player having 100% minus combos blocked by your hole cards
    o Discount combos each player would raise, with respect to position, stack sizes and whatever info you can find
    o Discount combos each player folds preflop, with respect to position, stack sizes and whatever info you can find

    o On flop, discount combos each player would fold or bet, with respect to stack sizes, position, board texture and whatever info you might find

    o On river....you got the idea.

    Simple as that, and just like dranger said, you´ll find yourself over and over again surprised when people show up with hands you didn´t consider in the first place, that what note taking is for. That´s also, where my "the wider a range....."-statement comes into play.
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  26. #26
    rong's Avatar
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    I've finally stopped being a tight assed pikey peasant bastard and I've forked out the 60 bucks for holdem manager.

    I've got some stats on people and wouldn't mind getting an idea of what starting hand ranges could be.

    So for example a guy with 16/13/154. What is a fair estimate for his raising range in mid position and on the button?

    Also, same question for 44/2/81. Whats a good estimate of his raising range for mid position and for the button.

    This is the kinda info thagt would help me. Cos I get the concept of range reduction based on flop/turn/river action, but I need a better place to start. I can't give every player the same starting range for a raise, and getting an idea of other peoples opinions on how the two guys above would open in will hopefully help me with adjusting my initial range estimates.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  27. #27
    For a general place to get started go download Pokerstove. Just plug in 13% to see what his raising range would be. Typically, (m2m and myself talked about this last year) that a persons MP range is typically what their VPIP/PFR are showing if they are 'thinking' opponents, since their EP range is tighter, and their LP range will be much wider.

    For a 44/2, just use 2% for his overall raising range from every position cuz he's never considering his range for opening. 2% is probably something like JJ+, AQ+ at the widest lol.
  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by dranger7070
    Just plug in 13% to see what his raising range would be.
    This comment + one of them micro stakes videos = poker stove making epiphanic sense
  29. #29
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    Oh wow, I really am a dumb c***!!!!!

    I didn't think about using the raise percentage stat to calculate the range. What a donkey!!!!!
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  30. #30
    Yea, its a really useful tool if you can think of ways to use it. Don't take the range it gives you as gospel though. It'll use K3s before it considers 67s, etc. So just make adjustments as you see fit and you'll be a range masta in no time.
  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddem

    He had just arrived at the table and I had had no time to look him up on pokertableratings yet. Small raise in mid-position + call a re-raise, so after the preflop action, I put him on 22+, AQ+. I could maybe exclude QQ+ because he would have 4-bet, but hell, who knows, this is the micros so keep them in there. On the flop, he makes that silly small bet which is either an attempt at a blocking bet or he has a good hand and is trying to pretend he is weak to induce a raise. After he called my raise, I put him on 55+, although I know full well that some guys at the micros can't let go of their AK type of hand. Regardless, I still am a massive favorite against that range, whether AK is in his range or not. So I fire the turn again, because I don't see how that 2 could have improved him. When he raises all-in, there is no way I am folding of course: the odds are way too good. I was expecting to be shown soemthing like trip 5's or AA or QQ. But no... this!
    I'm trying to figure all this out so forgive my simple questions.

    Why didn't you put him on a range of 6x in this situation? Is it because of the size of his flop bet?

    If the flop came down 66x and someone raised I would immediately think they're holding another 6 and fold. I think this is why I'm losing so many hands lately though.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamThePirate
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by iloveaces
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddem

    He had just arrived at the table and I had had no time to look him up on pokertableratings yet. Small raise in mid-position + call a re-raise, so after the preflop action, I put him on 22+, AQ+. I could maybe exclude QQ+ because he would have 4-bet, but hell, who knows, this is the micros so keep them in there. On the flop, he makes that silly small bet which is either an attempt at a blocking bet or he has a good hand and is trying to pretend he is weak to induce a raise. After he called my raise, I put him on 55+, although I know full well that some guys at the micros can't let go of their AK type of hand. Regardless, I still am a massive favorite against that range, whether AK is in his range or not. So I fire the turn again, because I don't see how that 2 could have improved him. When he raises all-in, there is no way I am folding of course: the odds are way too good. I was expecting to be shown soemthing like trip 5's or AA or QQ. But no... this!
    I'm trying to figure all this out so forgive my simple questions.

    Why didn't you put him on a range of 6x in this situation? Is it because of the size of his flop bet?

    If the flop came down 66x and someone raised I would immediately think they're holding another 6 and fold. I think this is why I'm losing so many hands lately though.
    I don't include 6x in his flop range because of what happened before the flop. If you notice the range I put him on following the preflop action, you will notice that the only holding in there that has a 6 is 66. Basically, I do not think that before the flop he would have raised in that position, then called a re-raise with a holding like 56 or A6. Now it is not *impossible* that he has 66 on the flop, but it is very very unlikely given that there are already two sixes on the board and if you play poker assuming that your opponent always flops 4-of-a-kind, you are not going to play for long.

    Don't forget that ranges are dynamic and change with every action of your opponent. But holdings that were not in his range preflop do not miraculously appear out of nowhere after the flop. Ranges always shrink with every action (well sometimes they do not shrink, but they surely do not grow).

    Now, when you make an analysis, nothing prevents you to go back and review the starting range and modify it in the light of the subsequent actions. But from that starting range, holdings only go out of the range with every action.
  33. #33
    ^excellent reply to his question
  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddem
    But from that starting range, holdings only go out of the range with every action.
    I think this was what I was missing. Thanks for clearing that up for me, I really appreciate it.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamThePirate
    Iloveaces, your signature is completely redundant.
  35. #35
    daviddem's Avatar
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    Also re-read the original post, because that bit was clearly explained in there, and also this recent post by Spoon, which is a very good example of how to proceed street by street:
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ge-t92163.html
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  36. #36
    Great post XTR.

    I have one question about pokerstove though. When it computes our equity against a specific range, does it automatically take into account the blockers in your hand? If this is true then it would make the pokerstove portion of analyzing a hand go much faster since you don't have to go through his range and uncheck the hands that have one of your cards. An example may help to clarify what I'm trying to say:

    If our hand is AsKs and we give him a range of TT+, and AK then do we really have to uncheck the combos of AA, KK, and AK that have a spade?

    I did an experiment and here are the results:

    Code:
     56,506,032  games     0.234 secs   241,478,769  games/sec
    
    Board: 
    Dead:  
    
    	equity 	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
    Hand 0: 	56.625%  	44.28% 	12.35% 	      25019943 	  6976617.00   { TT+, AKs, AKo }
    Hand 1: 	43.375%  	31.03% 	12.35% 	      17532855 	  6976617.00   { AsKs }
    Code:
      56,506,032  games     0.172 secs   328,523,441  games/sec
    
    Board: 
    Dead:  
    
    	equity 	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
    Hand 0: 	56.625%  	44.28% 	12.35% 	      25019943 	  6976617.00   { AcAd, AcAh, AdAh, KcKd, KcKh, KdKh, QQ-TT, AcKc, AdKd, AhKh, AcKd, AcKh, AdKc, AdKh, AhKc, AhKd }
    Hand 1: 	43.375%  	31.03% 	12.35% 	      17532855 	  6976617.00   { AsKs }
    Since the equity is the same in both cases, it looks to me like stove will adjust equity based on blockers for you. Could someone just verify this in case I messed up somewhere?

    I think going through and unchecking the blockers helps intuition and will give you a feel for how blockers effect ranges, but once you have this intuition then I'd rather not have to uncheck hands just to speed up the process.
  37. #37
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    Good question, and good point about the value of checking them initially, I foung that really helped, I think it's simply because it makes it visual.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  38. #38
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    Yes, it does take the blockers in your hand into account, as the results of your test indicate. And of course it also takes the cards on the board into account to calculate the possible holdings of your opponent.
    Virginity is like a bubble: one prick and it's all gone
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  39. #39
    great..many thanks for sharing
  40. #40
    great post xtr, very helpful
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