Table Selection (long)

Having searched the Beginners and Strategy forum I have seen that most discussion on this subject has been very misguided in that it tends to lose itself under an umbrella of bankroll management. I hope this thread might become a definitive article of discussion on this subject. I also wish this to be aimed at players at ALL levels.

The most relative post on table selection is Fnords which I want to discuss and hopefully add more:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/essays_...selection.html

A few general questions before we discuss Fnord article to get the basics down.

We all now the sites show players seeing flop ,average pot while some show hands per hour. Players seeing flop above 30% is very good, average pot size well the bigger the better, right? and hands per hour which is based on site software, opponent availability and table size.

Thoughts you should ask yourself before letting the poker site make the decision for you:

VPIP
- The highest VPIP are the best tables and juiciest games. This tends to be true.

Pot Size
Pot size however can be manipulated easy enough by the following factors:
- Is it so large its unsustainable therefore can only fall apart?
- Are too many shortstacks affecting the perception of big pots must mean big stacks?
- Do you know exactly how the poker site calculates pot size ?
- How many players are at the table?

Moving on a bit, Im going to try touch on table potential and waiting lists.

I mentioned above has a table reached its PEAK. Generally tables with VPIP 30%+ and pot size of 1/3 buyin is unsustainable and will tend to fall apart stat wise. Why? This table will tend to have fish or maniacs in more numbers and they do not usually last very long in games. Money goes to the sharks, bad players bust and already the table has changed dramatically.Instead why not opt for table with 8 of 10 seating, have an option of where to sit (Fnord has gone into more depth on seating), why not find at table just above average pot size in case it may develop into a very juicy game.

Juicy game, we all want to be in that. Problem is can you get a seat at such a game, its very hard. Online you can tell if it is and simply join a waiting list. This will sound like common sense but i think its worth noting that if you see such a game and it has a waiting list of 4-5 players, think what does this mean !! 4-5 players MUST leave the table before you get a chair, who are these players on the waiting list? most are probably good players seeing what you are and are after the fish too, will the table really be so juicy by the time you get there, do you really expect the fish/maniacs to even last till you get there. Answer NO the table stats may still be similiar but the table dynamic wont, not even close.

My main point is to think for yourself. Dont just jump at the first free seat thats free and also look past the stats. Instead look for table with potential. Maybe you can provide what you classify a ''potentials''!!!!

I think thats most of the basics covered. Do you have any you consider apart from these, disagree, wish to expand. Again moving on.

Table selection does NOT end once you have sat at the table so you should not be content with your decision:
1 - Fnord mentioned that he always will newbie post unless he is 2 or less of the BB. Yes we hear that it is slighlt -EV to post in the CO but on terms of gaining information/getting into the action/looking like a fish, is it worth much more in absolute terms?
2 - Why not make a few raises at a new table priority? Fnord advocates getting into the thick of it. This seems to be going against the norm of creating an image, but at low stakes who is noticing. Even at medium stakes raising alot in the first orbit isnt nessesarily labeling you a maniac.
3 - Just get up and leave if its not what you expected. You have zero attachment to a table.

Fnord lists various factors which ill list for ease of reference, hope he doesnt mind :

NOTE: $ amounts refer to 50 NL with blinds of .25/.50

Signs I'm at a the right table:
* Multiple players limping in
* Position on a loose and aggressive player
* Players calling raises after trying to limp with weak hands
* Players showing weak hands outside of the blinds (Ace-little offsuit, unsuited connectors, etc.)
* Outragous raises on top quality hands (so I know when to fold.)
* Players limping or only raising to $1 with top quality hands

It's probably time to find another table when: * 1 or fewer players limp a couple times in a series of 8-10 hands. Getting down to just the blinds is a very bad sign.
* Maniac with position on me by 1 or 2 seats. Dealing with his (re)raises can be trying and the check + call counter to that is a pain. Also, I'm less likely to be the last to act when I'm in late position, but don't have the button.
* I can't pick out the weak players at the table
* Many of the weak players go all-in on a single hand suicide pact, then several leave.
* Multiple strong/tight players. Particularly filling seats left by weak players.
* No one is calling my pre-flop raises with weak hands. If I can regularly take the blinds with a $2 pre-flop raise, I'm probably at the wrong table.
* I have position on the short stacks.

While at lower stakes the practice of table selection isnt high priority and can distract from one focusing on their own game I hope you can take this away as reference and go focus on your game but just have some pointers in mind when you play. I do not claim to know it all about this topic and have simply grouped thoughts from many past threads but I do want to try get some discussion going.

DaGOAT

To clarify, when you give dollar amounts at the end, at what buy-in are you talking? 10NL or 25NL?

I like this. It should also be noted that when playing 19-hand NL and thus set farming, you should be sure that the majority of the table has more than half the buy-in at the table. Ideally you want lots of limpers, lots of players calling raises with bad cards (high avg pot), and full stacks.

Also, as mentioned, don't post BB out of position unless you're maybe one or two off from the dealer. I would also recommend unchecking auto-post blinds. It's rude but it helps me pause at and make a decision at the best possible time. Right before you post every BB, you should be asking yourself: Does this table still have the value it did when I came here?

Leaving before you post BB next is very bad as you've already paid for another orbit. You could get KK or AA within that orbit for what you've already paid for.

Nice post Goat.

Originally Posted by Xioustic

To clarify, when you give dollar amounts at the end, at what buy-in are you talking? 10NL or 25NL?

thx for that, edited above. also if you read Fnords article. It states game is 25NL with blinds of .25/.50 which is what 50NL was called on some sites previously.

Originally Posted by Xioustic

Also, as mentioned, don't post BB out of position unless you're maybe one or two off from the dealer.

no Fnord posts 2 or less from the BB ie. will post everywhere but in EP.

Originally Posted by Xioustic

Leaving before you post BB next is very bad as you've already paid for another orbit. You could get KK or AA within that orbit for what you've already paid for.

naturally thats what I and i presume most players do, i meant in a more general sense.

good post GOAT. Ive been trying to focus on this when taking shots at $25nl tables, but the $10nl tables im used to are so loose/passive table selection isnt as big of a factor. I will definitly need to focus more on this especially at tighter sights like stars and FTP.

nh

Originally Posted by Bode-ist

good post GOAT. Ive been trying to focus on this when taking shots at $25nl tables, but the $10nl tables im used to are so loose/passive table selection isnt as big of a factor. I will definitly need to focus more on this especially at tighter sights like stars and FTP.

thx, I agree its a safe assumption that at the US allowed sites table selection may have to be applied at earlier stakes like 100NL and perhaps 50NL. European and others probably can get away with it up until 100NL-200NL FR.

What has never been mentioned in any post about seat or table selection is what are the sites using for stats. When you see a table with 35% VP$P or pot size of $13 at a $50NL table, how many hands are they using for averages? Do they count the BB as Players seeing the pot if he checks.

See one problem is that I have PT set up to show table stats, but PT uses averaages of players at the table. So if my table has for example:
UTG: 42/5
MP: 25/10
CO: 75/1
ME: 17/12
SB: 45/13
BB: 20/10

This makes the table averages, 37/8.5 and then I can judge by stack sizes where I want to be. I would like this table as long as some of the loose players have big stacks or I have good position on big stacks. The site will never give me the same stat, infact it jumps around alot. I generally open 4 tables with available seats and just keep moving after 4 or 5 orbits until I find tables I like, then I park.

I really like the table selection thoughts and conversations, but a lot more information is available to you to stay or go, than what table to sit at, since the stats are so short term and vague anyway. i find them really hard to trust or give me what I need.

Nice post DG. And good points TJ. Full Tilt lets you open 16 tables, so I do that, and then use PAHUD to call up stats. I get on waiting lists for the tables with the highest VPIPs, but if the seat that opens up first doesn't look good (b/c I'm to the right of the fish or a good tagg or lagg, or the only fish are super-shortstacked or have left) I don't take the seat. And sometimes the table average looks bad, like 22/5, and then you open it up and it's great... two loose passive fish running around 35/5 and the rest rocks bringing the average down. Just my $0.02.

wow... really good informative post. I will have to reread later.

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

What has never been mentioned in any post about seat or table selection is what are the sites using for stats. When you see a table with 35% VP$P or pot size of $13 at a $50NL table, how many hands are they using for averages? Do they count the BB as Players seeing the pot if he checks.

TJ I have emailed support at stars and party regards this. I do know that average pot size at Party is skewered in that thye count the final bet in its average regardless of it being called.

Will get back on this point hopefully

Nice post.

Pokerstars kindly responsed quickly.

Email states;

The figure for average pot is the mean of the pot sizes for the last twenty
hands played at the table:

(x1 + x2 + x3 ... + x20) / 20 #

where x is the pot size.

The figure for hands per hour is a simple count of how many hands were
played in the last sixty minutes.

The figure for average players to the flop is the mean of the number of
players who see the flop for the last twenty hands played, as a percentage
of the number of players:

{[(y1 + y2 + y3 ... + y20) / 20] / p} * 100

where y is the number of players to the flop, and p the number of
players at the table.

A hand where the action ended preflop would count as a y of zero. The blinds
are not treated differently to other players when calculating this figure.

All three figures are updated every hand. I hope this information helps.

Email ends

Great post man, very useful. Should be stickied for sure!

these are 2 tools that i think are invaluable for table selection

idleminer
mines for stats on FT (it closes empty tables and will open new tables automatically)

sixth sense
great table selection tool that lets u scan tables with ur datamined stats
http://www.sixthsensepoker.com/

maybe i'll write a post on how to datamine and use these tools ...


(both of these dont work for Pstars ..all the more reason not to play there)

Ahhh... but I'm much older and wiser now.

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

1 - Fnord mentioned that he always will newbie post unless he is 2 or less of the BB. Yes we hear that it is slighlt -EV to post in the CO but on terms of gaining information/getting into the action/looking like a fish, is it worth much more in absolute terms?

Still g00t because the nits think it's terrible. Particularly in a limit game when you're aware of the power of position. Just got to be good at defending it and understand that any aggression is going to get zero respect. In other words, it's a really terrible time to spew off with 45s. However if I have QQ+ and someone plays back at me, I'm going to get crazy action.

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

2 - Why not make a few raises at a new table priority? Fnord advocates getting into the thick of it. This seems to be going against the norm of creating an image, but at low stakes who is noticing. Even at medium stakes raising alot in the first orbit isnt nessesarily labeling you a maniac.

More inclined to do this in a soft game than a tough one. If people are happy and gambling you don't want to fuck up the party. In tougher games, you're better off playing super-nit-tight until you get a feel/read for the players and game, then using that image to steal a couple pots to soften 'em up once you know who to hit. Or use your image to get a couple extra pots with the table action until people figure out what you're doing.

NLHE is a game of mistakes. Weak/tight folds early in the hand can't be a big mistake. Spewing off chips can be.

The rest of the stuff there is g00t and vastly under-rated.

Thanks for chiming in Fnord, appreciate it.

Also just to add that Party did email back. They have the same system running so they are only different in that Party count the final uncalled bet into the average pot size calc and stars dont.

Another point I wish to add. Its obvious but worth a mention.

Using a Buddy list of some sort!!! Some sites allow you to create one but you may have to just enter a comment on PT about the player.

At lower stakes players are just bad to poor anyway but at higher stakes its very important since your edge over the games get smaller. But even at 25-100Nl why not just look them up before you start a session.

Seek you easiest prey out before someone else takes their money.