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spoonitnow
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07-18-2008, 01:02 PM
Post subject: Notes on Mental Toughness
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Being "at peace" with discomfort is one of the keys to mental toughness, in my opinion. All discomfort consists of is not accepting reality. That's it. Examples of this could extend as far reaching as waiting patiently in a long line or as immediate as not scratching an itch on your nose. If you're impatient in that long line, it's because you can't accept the fact that in reality you're not first in line at this particular moment. If you absolutely have to scratch that itch, it's because you can't accept the fact that at this particular point in time, something is causing your nose to itch, and if you just wait patiently, the itch will eventually go away.
So you just got in all-in preflop with KK against T5o, and the board comes T5552. The pain that you feel from losing comes from an inability for your acceptance of reality to keep up with the present moment. The faster you accept the fact that you lost the hand, and perhaps more importantly that it's okay and how things are supposed to be, the faster it will stop hurting. One day after enough practice, you won't feel any pain in the first place because you will be accepting reality as it passes through the present instead of having to wait until it's in the past.
So you just posted a hand in the Beginner's Circle here on FTR and want to know if you played it well. And someone told you that you played the hand like shit. If you can just accept that fact without having your ego involved, then it won't bother you at all. Instead of focusing on how your feelings got hurt, you should focus on how you could have played the hand better.
And I post this in this forum for one important reason -- the faster you develop a tough mentality, the more you'll be able to enjoy poker, and the more you'll enjoy the learning process, which will lead to getting better faster.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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asdpikas
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,056
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nh
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"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
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mrhappy333
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,078
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nice post.
but if I have an itch I will still itch it.
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mrhappy333
nice post.
but if I have an itch I will still itch it.
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If you don't then you'll get better at poker.
Promise.
Besides, it'll go away on it's own anyway.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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jyms
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07-18-2008, 01:33 PM
Post subject: Re: Notes on Mental Toughness
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#5 (permalink)
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
So you just got in all-in preflop with KK against T5o, and the board comes T5552.
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You know, it's amazing how many times people will still think they should win 100% of the time. You get it all in with AA, KK or even JJ and see hands that dumbfound you. You run pokerstove and see you were a 85% favorite and still cannot let go of the fact that you should never lose. Everyone say's "yea, I know I'm going to lose 15% or the time", but do you really? Have you ever just let it go. Have you ever, in the moment, said "oh well" and reload? Ever?
Do we post hands to try and verify our play in a particular hand, or do we really want to know what we did wrong? Finding out what we did wrong requires criticism, and sometimes we will feel stupid. This is what I look for when posting outside of the commune. I for one will take the criticism in hopes that one day I can win a $10K pot and not lose 500 $1 pots. How we go about our learning process is the only way to go from one to the other.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Just thought I'd post this in this thread, it's related http://www.tommyangelo.com/articles/betcha_cant.htm
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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nh
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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That tommy angelo site has always been one of my favorites of all time. I have to get his book.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jyms
That tommy angelo site has always been one of my favorites of all time. I have to get his book.
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As a mathematician, Theory of Poker and Mathematics of Poker are my favorite poker books.
As a human being, Elements of Poker by Tommy Angelo is my favorite poker book. It's like Ace on the River on steroids.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mrhappy333
nice post.
but if I have an itch I will still itch it.
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If you don't then you'll get better at poker.
Promise.
Besides, it'll go away on it's own anyway. |
I wanted to expound on this a bit.
Which is harder, to fold when you know you're beat but you have a good hand or to not scratch your nose when it itches really bad?
What about to not look at Poker Tracker during your session or to not scratch your nose when it itches really bad?
In either case, not scratching your nose is practice for poker.
Can you dig it?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Great post!
There is a great article on the psychology of bad beats on 2+2 - don't call me a spammer again, please 
Condensed to a sentence it sais that it is that expecting to win the pot is what makes you steam if you do loose it. It helps me a lot to keep my expectations low. I keep calling out the cards that I do not want to see. If I have AQ and my opponent has QT, and the flop shows a J, in my mind I have already lost that hand. I think this helps me a lot. I still steam of course, but it takes a little more than just a bad beat.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by oskar
There is a great article on the psychology of bad beats on 2+2 - don't call me a spammer again, please
Condensed to a sentence it sais that it is that expecting to win the pot is what makes you steam if you do loose it. It helps me a lot to keep my expectations low. I keep calling out the cards that I do not want to see. If I have AQ and my opponent has QT, and the flop shows a J, in my mind I have already lost that hand. I think this helps me a lot. I still steam of course, but it takes a little more than just a bad beat. |
Exactly. The gap between expectation and accepting what really happened is 100% exactly what I'm talking about here.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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smitts187
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ontario canada
Posts: 161
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by oskar
Great post!
Condensed to a sentence it sais that it is that expecting to win the pot is what makes you steam if you do loose it. It helps me a lot to keep my expectations low. I keep calling out the cards that I do not want to see. If I have AQ and my opponent has QT, and the flop shows a J, in my mind I have already lost that hand. I think this helps me a lot. I still steam of course, but it takes a little more than just a bad beat.
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great theory, i will definately keep this in mind, great way to be thinking
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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sounds a lot like buddhism, which is never a bad thing.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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smitts187
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ontario canada
Posts: 161
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
sounds a lot like buddhism, which is never a bad thing.
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lol 
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
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Getting attached to expectation is indeed very problematic in life, but especially in poker where our expectations of winning a pot with a strong hand are so often shattered.
...something about 'counting eggs before they've hatched' or something 
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
sounds a lot like buddhism, which is never a bad thing.
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The idea that expectation leads to/is a cause of suffering is a heavy theme there too.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
sounds a lot like buddhism, which is never a bad thing.
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The idea that expectation leads to/is a cause of suffering is a heavy theme there too. |
While I'm hardly a buddhist, I think they got a lot right, and this is one central theme that's always resonated heavily with me because it's so easy to see how that applies to life.
The whole notion of ego attachment to ideas, values, possessions, hands, etc, is something you see exemplified in day to day life constantly. People reacting negatively when their attachments are threatened. It can be something as simple as someone's idea getting shot down in a meeting, and that person defending their idea vehemently in the face of contradictory evidence.
Poker is a perfect example of this (see: bad beats forum). I've always tried to detach myself from the outcome of hands, and it's easier some days than others. The result of true detachment is no negative feelings from beats, but also no positive feelings from wins.
This is peace: a state I feel is far more attainable than perpetual happiness, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that so many naively chase.
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eviltoad13
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07-18-2008, 03:45 PM
Post subject: Re: Notes on Mental Toughness
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#19 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
So you just posted a hand in the Beginner's Circle here on FTR and want to know if you played it well. And someone told you that you played the hand like shit. If you can just accept that fact without having your ego involved, then it won't bother you at all. Instead of focusing on how your feelings got hurt, you should focus on how you could have played the hand better.
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If that is the only reply, then that person is an ass. Has nothing to do with ego, if your not going to help the person play it better next time do not post.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
The result of true detachment is no negative feelings from beats, but also no positive feelings from wins.
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This is soooooo important. So many people don't understand that it works both ways: everytime you're happy you won a pot it reinforces the idea that you should feel like total shit when you lose a pot.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eviltoad13
If that is the only reply, then that person is an ass. Has nothing to do with ego, if your not going to help the person play it better next time do not post.
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The fact that you judge the person who replies as being an ass stems from the fact that your ego is attached! If your ego was not attached, you would see that he answered your question and would provide a basis for you to ask further questions. However, since your ego is attached, you have the reaction to think that "if [the person replying is] not going to help the person play it better next time do not post," when it's your personal issues that are causing you to miss the lesson presented in the moment.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dictionary.com
To cause displeasure, anger, resentment, or wounded feelings in.
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Being offended by the reply to a post is an attack on the ego. If your ego isn't attached, you can't be offended by the reply to a post, period.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Roid_Rage
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: He just wins, mmkay?
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Bumpaments
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Penneywize
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 885
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excellent bump, roid_rage. we had a guy who used to bump useful posts but he disappeared several months ago. glad to see you have picked up the slack.
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Roid_Rage
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: He just wins, mmkay?
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Sasquach991
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rat Cheer
Posts: 1,012
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Bump couldn't have come at a better time for me. Nose itched at least 4 times tonight and I scratched it with a rake. I was ok after the first two itches but the 3rd and 4th put me over the top. I thought I had tilt under control too.
New note for the monitor reads "Itch?"
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"Just cause I'm from the South don't mean I ain't got no book learnin'"
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
...we've all learned long ago how to share the truth without actually having the truth.
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chatzilla
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 360
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3rd excellent bump. I really enjoyed reading this thread
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OngBonga
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
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Itches don't go away if you don't scratch them, they just get worse.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
ongies gonna ong
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kickass
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: St. Shawshanks Infant School
Posts: 600
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I got to the end without itching but thats as far as it goes.........much better really good thread.
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grnydrowave2
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Showin' mah Pokemans
Posts: 651
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Itching is a bad example. Waiting in line and bad beats and are things we have no control over. It does us no good to allow them to consume our thoughts and make us upset because we can't do anything about it. If my nose itches or my house is on fire, these are things I do have a degree of control over, so I can (and should) concern myself with them. I could choose to ignore them and let the situations resolve themselves. But there are more efficient ways I can deal with them.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Itches don't go away if you don't scratch them, they just get worse.
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I wish my itches didn't go away unless I scratch them because then I would always be challenged by them.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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grnydrowave2
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Showin' mah Pokemans
Posts: 651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
I wish my itches didn't go away unless I scratch them because then I would always be challenged by them.
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I have just the thing you are looking for! It is a condition somewhat similar to itchiness, but more intense and longer lasting. It's called pain! Another advantage over itching is that this condition can be easily self-inflicted. I recommend gently stabbing yourself in the hand. You can then challenge yourself to endure the pain for weeks instead of seeking medical attention. 
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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See http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...nt-185061.html for rants about standing in line.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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grnydrowave2
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Showin' mah Pokemans
Posts: 651
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By the way, I'm not disagreeing with the general concept of this thread; I'm just nitpicking at one example. I do really like the message being conveyed. In fact, this thread has encouraged me to go ahead and watch Tommy Angelo's video series since I already have access.
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The Norg
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 65
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Excellent bump, and excellent thread. Only downside from reading this, I'm now conscious of itching pretty much everywhere, and trying hard to get better at poker, well, I feel a fresh itch coming up in a place I never knew I even had....
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Just thought I'd post this in this thread, it's related //www.tommyangelo.com/articles/betcha_cant.htm]Betcha Can't
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Very nice. Since I had no idea what to expect, I called the flop bet without thinking too clearly (and how many times have I done that before <grumble>). However, once I folded and realised why, I believe I became just a little better at poker in that instant which is what I am striving for.
Off to Amazon now to see if I can track down his book mentioned above now.
Hmm, as I've been focusing on writing the itching seems to have stopped too
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celtic123
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: **Officially**The worst poster on FTR
Posts: 708
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There are many more relevant and not so relevant anecdotes . A whole barrel of fun in here:-
Index of /articles
He has an off beat way of expressing his ideas.
Bump to the top
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!Luck
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,367
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It should be noted there are some players out there that are insane and have no control outside of poker. So great control outside of poker is not required. However, I agree that it will make your life in general better.
If having control over your life was a requirement we wouldn't have so many degen pros who can't stay away from craps.
Good bump.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Norg
Excellent bump, and excellent thread. Only downside from reading this, I'm now conscious of itching pretty much everywhere, and trying hard to get better at poker, well, I feel a fresh itch coming up in a place I never knew I even had....
Very nice. Since I had no idea what to expect, I called the flop bet without thinking too clearly (and how many times have I done that before <grumble>). However, once I folded and realised why, I believe I became just a little better at poker in that instant which is what I am striving for.
Off to Amazon now to see if I can track down his book mentioned above now.
Hmm, as I've been focusing on writing the itching seems to have stopped too |
You can get a Kindle reader for your PC (or Mac, I think) and get the Kindle version for like $9.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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3bet72o
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High Card
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4
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Love this personal development stuff.
Reminds me of the Sedona Method - learning to 'release' emotions. The idea is to accept emotions, rather than try to deny or bottle them, which only causes problems down the track.
Whenever you feel an emotion, there are basic questions you ask yourself:
- Can I allow myself to accept this feeling?
- Can I allow myself to let go of this feeling?
- Will I let go of this feeling?
- When?
It doesn't matter what the answers are, addressing these questions is designed to make yourself aware of your emotions and learning to accept them for what they are. Impostors.
Sounds like a load of wank, and probably not for everyone, but it always helps me feel at ease.
For poker, I guess this would include emotions like ego, anger, pride, frustration etc.
Even positive emotions like the elation of winning need to be checked. Just accept your emotions, release them and move on with your life.
Only then can you live your life to the fullest, poker included.
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grnydrowave2
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Showin' mah Pokemans
Posts: 651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3bet72o
snip
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I remember reading about this a few months ago. We've always known that bottling emotions is a terrible strategy, but a prevalent idea has been that channeling them is therapeutic. You know, like stepping outside and screaming or taking it out on a punching bag. I've always had doubts about that, particularly when it comes to anger. Maybe people will get the idea that it's okay to get enraged at every little thing because you have a nice safe outlet for it. Maybe those techniques actually condition you to get angry more often. Or what if it becomes a crutch and you find yourself in a situation where you can't use your outlet?
The technique you describe seems much more reasonable, but also more difficult.
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3bet72o
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High Card
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnydrowave2
I remember reading about this a few months ago. We've always known that bottling emotions is a terrible strategy, but a prevalent idea has been that channeling them is therapeutic. You know, like stepping outside and screaming or taking it out on a punching bag. I've always had doubts about that, particularly when it comes to anger. Maybe people will get the idea that it's okay to get enraged at every little thing because you have a nice safe outlet for it. Maybe those techniques actually condition you to get angry more often. Or what if it becomes a crutch and you find yourself in a situation where you can't use your outlet?
The technique you describe seems much more reasonable, but also more difficult.
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The beauty of Sedona is that you don't even need to channel emotions as such... no screaming out, punching bags etc...
It's getting back to the original post - "being at peace with discomfort".
For me, I feel anger far less if anything. It's more a case of accepting these feelings, and just letting it go... I know this all sounds esoteric and hard to define, but one technique might work for one person, while useless for another.... I tried EFT, but didn't get a whole lot from it, while Sedona was life-changing. Then again, lots of people swear by EFT and that's cool.
Another thing to be aware of when crapping on about Sedona and other techniques is to avoid preaching and sounding like I'm a better person for doing this.... that's the ego at work too...
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grnydrowave2
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Showin' mah Pokemans
Posts: 651
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I wasn't suggesting that Sedona is a channeling technique. I acknowledge that it's a 3rd option, and probably the best of the three.
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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