Dead Money

I've been noticing that a lot of people use the reasoning, "I raise because I want to pick up the dead money." A lot of the time I see these hands with that reasoning it's just a major .

The money is not dead if the villain is rarely or never folding

say you hold on a board. Villain is a fishy reg who rarely folds over pairs postflop and you are pretty sure his range is exclusively OP.

Villain pots the flop and you jam using the "pick up the dead money" reasoning (obv + the SF equity). You just made a mistake. You know the villain is NEVER folding an OP therefore his bet cannot be considered dead money.

Granted the above hand may not be the best example but the point is, you have to actually consider your opponent's range and tenancies and not just fall back on HURRR DERRR MANIES IN THE PAWTS! GOTTA PICK UP DAT DEAD MANIES!

ldo

That is kind of a bad example though, I think. A better one would be where hero has 30-40% equity. In the above example, it's so close to 50% that you pretty much just need villain to fold a non-zero % of the time for jamming to be +EV. Even with a minuscule amount of fold equity, it's still the slightly dead money that justifies the decision. Riiiiight?

Originally Posted by Donachello

Granted the above hand may not be the best example but the point is, you have to actually consider your opponent's range and tenancies and not just fall back on HURRR DERRR MANIES IN THE PAWTS! GOTTA PICK UP DAT DEAD MANIES!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Also, I am posting this mostly because I see people trying to play draws aggressively when villain's range is LOL-strong.

Gotcha.

I think "dead money" is just a poor and easily misunderstood term. Money in the pot is never truly dead unless villain folds to bets 100% of the time. If we just scrapped the phrase altogether and talked about things in terms of fold equity, which is quantifiable, then people might know better than to make bad shoves. Now they're forced to think about how much FE they have, which requires them to think about the opponent's range, and whether that adds up enough with pot equity to make it a correct move.

My post was retarded so I deleted it.

I don't think this is a great example, but it's definitely a very good point you make. Thinking about how dead the "dead" money is important, but really it should just be a side-effect of putting people on a range. When you do that properly, you can determine how many "fold" hands villain has, and thus determine if raising is profitable.

Just because you have 55% equity it doesn't mean felting the flop is the most profitable line, especially where you have no fold equity and villain still stacks off on scare cards.

Whenever i think of folding equity, i think of "do i gain more by having villain call or fold?"
judging your folding equity is very tough imho, its a skill imho that u just develop over time through experience and good hand reading... to get that u have to make the odd mistake do u not?

Yep, in this game you have to make plenty mistakes in the process of learning almost anything.

I don't know if there's a universally accepted definition of this term, but when I see it, my first thought is any money that has been put into the pot by players who have folded and thus can no longer win it back. So for example, in a pot where there has been a bet and a call, and the blinds have folded, the amount of the blinds is the dead money.

Another fairly frequent usage is as an uncomplimentary reference to players who aren't likely to win in a particular game. The implication is that their EV would be the same if they sat there and folded every hand.

Originally Posted by Carroters

Yep, in this game you have to make plenty mistakes in the process of learning almost anything.

Avatar mistakes ITT. That dancin' pickle makes my eyes hurt, lol.

Don't forget the carrot, bannana and pepper

Dead money is normally someone who's folded their hand after putting money in the pot or someone who's drawing dead.

Add two or three limpers pre who fold to his flop bet and then we've got a pretty good example.

Really good points itt. Especially about considering all possible lines and the EV's compare.

Case in point.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($5.90)
Button ($9.91)
SB ($12.28)
Hero (BB) ($10)
UTG ($10.42)
MP ($9.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9, 7
3 folds, Button bets $0.40, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.40, Button calls $1

Flop: ($2.85) 8, 7, A (2 players)
Hero bets $1.35, Button raises to $2.70, Hero raises to $8.60 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $8.25 | Rake: $0.40

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

H2) 3b seems bad vs randoms with less than 100bb's because leik everyone is a station etc. on the flop we do have a lot of equity vs like anything, but seriously do we have more than 50%/how much better is folding? im not really sure about cbetting, but i like calling his minraise and c/decide based on sizing a lot more than shipping it because hes like never folding. just because getting it in is +EV because of dead money doesnt mean we should do it, etc.

I'd pretty happily ship it in there hoopy. tbh i see nothing wrong with that hand whatsoever. unless villian is a complete unknown in which case id make an arguement for flatting.

I think he said villain was complete unknown but not sure :s

Originally Posted by bikes

I'd pretty happily ship it in there hoopy. tbh i see nothing wrong with that hand whatsoever. unless villian is a complete unknown in which case id make an arguement for flatting.

Yeah villein was unknown to me, hence why I think the EV of flatting getting like 5-1 is greater than shoving vs a presumably strong range.

In poker, dead money in the pot other than the equal amounts bet by active remaining players in that pot. Examples of dead money include contributed to the pot by players who have folded, a dead blind posted by a player returning to a game after missing blinds, or an odd chip left in the pot from a previous deal. The term dead money is also used in a derogatory sense to refer to money put in the pot by players who are still legally eligible to win it but who are unlikely to do so because they are unskilled, increasing the expected return of other players. For more information you may check this link www casinosdiary com/

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