Amost sure I'm up against AA - still call w/ KK?

This is from memory but the usual QQ+ preflop betting pattern. 25NL.

I raise 6xbb w/ KK, Tight player reraises to 12xbb. I reraise to 24xbb. He pushes. This guy is playing 20% or less flops and seems decent. I say "I guess you have aces huh?". He says "queens". I call knowing there is a 95% he has AA. Best I can hope for is to hit a hand somehow or that the has KK. He has AA and wins. Sucks because we were the big stacks.

I'll never lay down KK preflop even if they show me one Ace. Moron?

I don't like the pre-flop 3-bet unless you think he's a fish.

Originally Posted by r8ed

I'll never lay down KK preflop even if they show me one Ace. Moron?

Nope, completely justified at 25NL. The thing is, when you 3-bet preflop w/KK, if villian is a thinking player (which can be a big assumption), he will either fold anything less than KK or call and play for set value. And AA rapes you either way. So by smooth calling the reraise preflop, you can stack QQ or an aggro JJ on a raggedy flop, and at the same time you will still lose to AA. If an A hits and he has QQ, then that just sucks.

What he said. Except, I think he missed one detail.

Originally Posted by r8ed

Sucks because we were the big stacks.

How deep was the money? Somewhere around the 200-300bb stack depth I think you need to find this laydown.

Originally Posted by r8ed

This is from memory but the usual QQ+ preflop betting pattern. 25NL.

I raise 6xbb w/ KK, Tight player reraises to 12xbb. I reraise to 24xbb. He pushes. This guy is playing 20% or less flops and seems decent. I say "I guess you have aces huh?". He says "queens". I call knowing there is a 95% he has AA. Best I can hope for is to hit a hand somehow or that the has KK. He has AA and wins. Sucks because we were the big stacks.

I'll never lay down KK preflop even if they show me one Ace. Moron?

What are you hoping for when you re-reraise it for just 12xBB? A call from him doesn't tell you anything because even the AA might try to trap you here. Any other random hand would call because it's only double what he's already put in. What it seems like you're hoping for is a raising war. Then he goes all-in and now you're disappointed. It's a weird spot to be in.

I'd either re-reraise it really big so the pps don't get implied odds, or just call and trap all the other hands that dominate you. You're going to lose a lot of money on this hand no matter what. To fold too early would be a mistake. But with really deep stacks, I'd play some post-flop poker and figure out what I'm up against.

The buyin was $25 and I had $40 and he had $45. So, not huge stacks but the biggest at the table.

I like getting it all in preflop with AA/KK. QQ is the hand I call the reraise with and I usually fold anything else. I mean, if I have KK and the flop comes out all unders all my chips are in the middle by the river anyway. If they have Ax or QQ and get to the flop for less and it's K55, they can fold easily. I want them to make the mistake preflop.

1.35 : 1 odds. If you win 42% of the time, you break even.

Assumptions:

There is a 60% chance he holds AA, 30% chance he holds JJ-QQ, and a 10% chance he holds AK.

Vs. AA you win 18% of the time. .6*.18 = 10.8%
Vs. QQ/JJ you win 82% of the time. .3*.82 = 24.6%
Vs. AK you win 70% of the time. .1*.7 = 7%

= ~42%

To be perfectly honest, I was bored and just pulled the hands and % likelihood for those hands out of my head and it came out to be break-evenish given those assumptions. At NL25, I don't see how you can fold unless villain is a rock.

Originally Posted by r8ed

I'll never lay down KK preflop even if they show me one Ace. Moron?

If you are fairly sure your opponent has AA then you must fold KK. You're a 4/1 underdog and unless this is that one situation in five then you are going to lose.

I know it is difficult, but it has to be done. In cash games, as in your case, you can reload so it isn't as bad as in a tournament.

In a tournament, one loss at a crucial time and you are eliminated. At my local casino the other night in the first hand of a tourney player 1 raised large preflop and player 2 reraised. Plyaer 1 called, the flop came 3 rags, player 1 bet large, player 2 came over the top and player 1 called. Player 1's KK lost to player 2's AA.

I thought to myself early on in the hand that this was an KK v AA situation. Player 1 later said he knew player 2 had AA but there was nothing he could do in that situation. Oh yes there was. KK is not a good enough holding on which to be eliminated from a tourney in the first hand, only AA qualifies on this score. This was the first hand and the KK had to be dumped.

It is difficult, but when you know you are beaten, you fold.

I wanted to make a post a few weeks back abouting detecting AA with big hands preflop but i got busy with a downswing.
Anyway.
Standard pot is you reaise then opp reraises. If its me i pump in a big reraise here, enough that opp either pushes or knows i hold a huge hand, one of three AA/KK/QQ. If he pushes over that then u have to assume its AA and fold. I think this safety net while losing you money stops you losing the whole lot. Afterall, only AA is going to push over a big re-reraise ?
Therefore, if i open for 4bbs get raise back say to 8 or 12 i then make it 20bbs. If he calls and has AA im dead without a King anyway but if opp doesnt push i think you have enough license to get the money in on the flop knowing then you are 90% of the time ahead.
In this sense i think i can mostly assume that i avoid AA vs KK.
Yet, i still hate to fold KK preflop.

I call knowing there is a 95% he has AA.

I've learned to just suck it up and fold when I feel that strongly about it. Regardless of the cards, outs, odds, the hand, etc, I'll trust myself with a feeling that strong.

Its like that fulltilt commercial "Sometimes you gotta lay it down when you know you're beat. Poker is about is everything but the cards".

My wife asked me if she should fold KK preflop two weeks ago. I told her NO and she was indeed up against AA and lost. So, I had to back up my claim. I went into my PT stats and out of all the preflop All-ins w/ KK (30? Don't have PT in front) I only ran into AA once. Then I told her every time she runs into AA w/ KK and is all-in preflop and loses, I'll refund her stack. Moron?

Never lay down KK pre-flop unless the situation demands it, like in a sattelite where x amount of players win seats and you're the second biggest stack. There are several shortstacks waiting to bust out and you look down at KK. The chipleader goes all in, FOLD. Even if you have AA, FOLD. The point is not to win the tournament, it's to win your seat into the event. Online especially, it just doesn't pay off to fold KK pre-flop. Sometimes you'll be right, but usually it will be somebody with QQ, JJ, AK, etc. If you run into AA, then you're just extremely unlucky. If I had 300 BB and so did another player I would be more anxious to see a flop than get all my chips in the middle pre-flop.