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 Originally Posted by poop
Like what? Apart from MRGA, what is Putin's endgame here?
Isn't it obvious? To stop further expansion of NATO on Russia's border. Presumably, his direct intent is to put in place a puppet government in Kyiv, one that will not seek NATO membership.
First, lol that the West is out to get Russia. There's no "fuck Russia" club.
That's exactly what NATO is. If you don't understand even this much, then you've no hope of understanding why this conflict is happening.
If you want to go back a century, Russia attacked all of Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Romania, Finland, Iran, and Lithuania prior to or during WWII without provocation.
Yup. Enter list of countries invaded by USA and UK here. There are no good guys in this.
If we're going back a century, let's also not forget the price Russia paid to defeat Hitler.
Second, there's been no democratic plebiscite about whether the Donbas or any other region wants to join Russia. Just Putin saying they want to and giving separatists weapons is not a good enough reason to start a war.
They've been fighting the Ukrainian military since 2014, I think it's safe to assume that the people who remain are pro-independence.
Third, NATO is not a fuck-Russia club, it's a keep-Russia-from-expanding-into-countries that can't stand up to it alone club.
You just found a ludicrously elaborate, almost politician-like, way of saying "the fuck Russia club".
I'm using plain English. It's an anti-Russia alliance. That's what I mean by the "fuck Russia club" and it's what you mean by "word soup club".
If you think NATO wants to invade Russia
I didn't say that, and I don't think it.
NATO do not want to invade Russia, no more than Russia wants to invade a NATO country. Neither party want to engage in open hostilities with one another.
If the Ukraine were in NATO now, Russia would never have invaded them
I do believe this is true, which is why Putin is desperate to stop it from happening. Once Ukraine join, it's lost.
That's what NATO's chief purpose is, defense.
Defence against Russia. It is an anti-Russia alliance, I hope we can agree on that language.
You seem to think I'm pro-Russia here because I'm not drooling all over the "fuck Russia" mentality. I'm trying to understand why this is happening without defaulting to "Putin bad". It's happening because NATO is expanding ever closer to Russia. That's a two-party issue. By attempting to expand into places like Ukraine, NATO have made it a less secure place. It should have been obvious in 2014 that Russia would not allow it to happen without a fight.
It's not NATO's fault that Russia (at least under Putin) can't be trusted to leave its neighbors alone.
Russia interfere's because of NATO expansion. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. NATO is created to protect the world from Russia, Russia invades their neighbours to stop them joining NATO and allowing missile systems and whatnot to be parked on their doorstep.
Let's not forget how outraged USA were that Soviet missile systems were parked in Cuba. You surely understand why USA didn't like that, don't you? There are similarities.
So is Biden. These two are in charge of the most powerful nuclear nations on the planet.
His excuse for invading is to oust the Jewish "Nazi" (lol) president of the Ukraine.
idk about the President, but Ukrainian politics does have a problem with neo-Nazism.
The only thing that will stop him is when he's taken every country that isn't in NATO...
Imagine actually thinking this.
Let me know when he invades Kazakhstan or Mongolia. My guess it'll be shortly after they announce plans to join NATO, if they're stupid enough to try.
But they didn't. Ukraine is not in NATO. They have the right to be if they want to, and NATO agrees to it. They're a sovereign country, they can make any fucking alliances they want. That's what sovereignty means.
Sure, if Ukraine want to exercise their sovereignty to do the thing that will annoy their former overlords the most, they can. Just like Finland can. But they won't, because they're not stupid enough to want a security problem with Russia.
What's really amusing is that the guy who has such a hardon for words like "sovereignty" and "democracy" when it comes to a country's right to impose economic sanctions on itself goes limp when it comes to actually respecting a third country's rights to act autonomously without getting invaded by its neighbor.
Do you not understand what you're doing here? Because I'm not sucked into Western propaganda, because I attempt to understand what is motivating Putin to make the moves he's making, you think I'm "going limp". What are you doing? Getting hard for Putin hate? Have you changed your facebook profile to the Ukraine flag? Have you done your bit of virtue signalling? Nobody gives a fuck about Yemen or Palestine, but Ukraine gets invaded and suddenly it's fuck Putin. And this coming from a fuck-Boris guy. It's ridiculous how someone who despises the Tories so much is sucked into British foreign policy and propaganda.
There are two sides to this. There are no good guys. Putin is a cunt. So too is every leader who has their beaky nose in this affair. War is profit. Who do you think is selling weapons to Saudi Arabia to bomb the shit of out Yemen? We are. And we'll be supplying Ukraine too, no doubt.
Just don't sit there thinking Putin is the only bad guy. And don't assume that because I'm calling other people bad, that I'm somehow pro-Putin. I don't live in the same binary world you live in poop.
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