Vikings, Gods and Giants Game thread

[Luco]

VC

Ong 7
Monstrman 3
Keybored 1
Daven 1
Hoopy 1
BID 1

::::hamsters spinning out of control:::::

I need to put names against these votes and think about it...

[Luco]

drew got a random villager peek on night 0 which could still be Loki. I'm surprised that wuf would miss this.

But loki isn't a villager?

[Luco]

Ong 7 – bid mojo gabe hoopy monstr luco boog
Monstrman 4 – ong key rong daven
Keybored 1 - JKDS
Daven 1 – Nobody (silly mod)
Hoopy 1 - Wuf
BID 1 – Dhuber aka rascal

Take out the dead:

Ong 7 – gabe hoopy luco
Monstrman 4 – rong daven
Keybored 1 - JKDS
Daven 1 – Nobody (silly mod)
Hoopy 1 - Wuf
BID 1 – Dhuber aka rascal

[Hoopy]

Checked back on what JKDS said about ong bolding wuf then insta rescinding.

This happens in ~5mins.

lol even I don't believe what I'm selling. I rarely believe what I say on d1, especially this early, it's just that to me, d1 is about getting in people's faces in an effort to get reads.

As for keith, I'm not buying that keith would deliberately angle shoot like that. I can't pretend it didn't happen. Furthermore, this attempt to get him lynched before we even get a sub for him is fishy as hell.

lynch wuf

call me an optimist since i think keith is more likely to angle-shoot than be a myopic narcissistic cunt

Good answer.

rescind

See I find this a bit weird since ong & wuf normally interact a lot, usually ending up convinced that the other is a wolf early on. But up to this point (over 100 posts) they hadn't really interacted .

ong votes wuf without giving a reason that I can see but then quickly rescinds. I agree with JKDS that this is fishy.

[Luco]

Checked back on what JKDS said about ong bolding wuf then insta rescinding.

This happens in ~5mins.





See I find this a bit weird since ong & wuf normally interact a lot, usually ending up convinced that the other is a wolf early on. But up to this point (over 100 posts) they hadn't really interacted .

ong votes wuf without giving a reason that I can see but then quickly rescinds. I agree with JKDS that this is fishy.

Hoopy not so long ago you said that wolves are aware of not interacting with each other (in your won defense). You can't have it both ways.

[Hoopy]

But loki isn't a villager?

Errrr yeah actually I guess. He appears as a villager to any seer but if drew's lookup was selected from the pool of pure villagers only it doesn't matter, which seems more likely otherwise the seer can't trust the lookup. So you're right that daven can't be Loki.

[Hoopy]

Great question!

Wolfy post!

Easy way to appear active without having to think of things to say.

Not directly agreeing with JKDS but pushing village attention onto someone else.

lynch rong

[Hoopy]

Hoopy not so long ago you said that wolves are aware of not interacting with each other (in your won defense). You can't have it both ways.

Fair enough I guess no interaction isn't a valid suspicion here. What do you think of Ong's vote though?

[Luco]

Ok, here's where I'm at.

Daven - We can just clear him and blame Bankitdrew if we lose, yay! (Legit strat!)

Or...

ong is wolf imo.
keith was well on the way to getting lynched there, villager ong doesn't use his shot like that. Wolf-ong does - kills two birds with one stone = 1) he gets rid of a known villager early on day 1 and gives the wolves a decent chance of heading into night 1 with two villagers dead, and 2) he gets people calling him lock-villager. Pretty nut outcome for a wolf.

please show me where it says that the day vig power can only be held by a villager, and never by a wolf... then read post 139... after reading post 60...

day 1 soulread time
Lynch MadMojoMonkey

i pointed out that ong can definitely be a wolf, but i think it's more likely that he's a villager. Mostly cos i can't imagine a wolf being given day vig powers cos that would mess hard with game structure.

Notice in that last quote his reason for towning ong is just parroting JKDS, who made the same game balance comment before this. My problem with this is - he calls ong wolf when others call him wolf, then calls ong villager when others are calling him villager.

Also, lots of his early reads are now dead villagers. If it wasn't for drew daven would definitely be in the running here

Gabe - D1 definitely looks good for gabe

i dont think we can compare what keybored did and what ong did

keith was a wolf much less than average. he wouldnt just spite his wolf team. ong spewed MEGA HARD here. and he got crazy defensive about it

lynch ong

seems like a fine place to start. and im skeptical of anyone defending ong

I see no good option besides Ong. I know "Ong gonna ong" but hom shooting keith was particularly stupid. It just doesn't make sense for a thinking villager

I'm flying today so I won't be here around deadline. But I don't see why I would change my vote

D2 and D3 I'm flip flopping on, on the one hand (the wolfy hand) he's not finding villagers like usual and he's asking irreverent questions (and keeps saying he's confused), but on the other hand I'm seeing flashes of villager gabe in some of those posts. Still, low content for a villager

Hoopy - Hoops also has a good D1 post:

This is what I meant by fancy play syndrome being involved here. Him doing it as a wolf is pretty ballsy, but as a villager it makes no sense at all.

Don't see myself switching to anyone else except maybe dhuber, but time is getting short.

All his posts read to me like a villager trying to figure this out. Once you subtract his 'always looks wolfy' baseline nothing he has said has really pinged me.

And I know hoopy hasn't been wolf in ages but I have seen him wolf at least twice and there is a key difference in the way he presents himself when he's wolfin imo

JKDS - Opened with a defense of ong:

Ongs been silly before. Reads null to me

Which I think on balance is a v lean for jkds, ong was in zero trouble there so it's an odd spot for a wolf to defend especially as it's jkds' opening post.

Pretty much in absentia for D1 though. D2 he really pushed wuf over rong and as stated I don't know how genuine this is. If rong flips wolf that will be two spots where jkds has defended a wolf but in an unusual, kinda non-wolfy way.

I do have a question for you JKDS - you said boog and I were near-confirmed, and I feel my switch vote was way clearer than boog's, so why are you even suspicious of me at all?

I'm in the same place with jkds as I am with gabe - leaning wolf, seeing flashes of villager, but really too low content to form a solid read

lilrascal - dhuber looked bad but rascal is pulling up on the stick quite hard imo. Looking forward to him hitting 15 posts, villager for now

Rong - threadflow puts him in a really bad spot - he was around on EoD 1 but never switched, he isn't really looking game-solvey either - look at his opening posts d2, while hoops, boog, mojo and I are speculating about people he's musing over which night kill belonged to which faction? He has 60 posts but has focused more on mechanics than player alignment, more than any other person itt. If nothing else he's dead weight.

One thing I've found in his defense - near EoD 1 he spoke to ong directly and said 'wuf is going nowhere ong, onward' which I'm giving rong a v lean for as on balance it's slightly more likely to be v/w than w/w but that's all.

Wufwugy - I had him leaning villager from a n1 readthrough based on the fact that when wuf voted hoopy ong's next post was 'I'm with wuf, hoopy is wolfy'. In my experience this points to wuf being more likely V than W as wolves don't often double team like that

That's the main one, that and he sounds like his usual self.



So yeah Gabe, jkds, rong, maybe daven if BID has derped. If rong flips wolf it somewhat lends weight to gabe being the last wolf based on the D1 VC - having exactly one wolf on each main wagon would mean the wolves were playing bad because they didn't influence the vote. It does happen, and it could have happened here because ong was a derp so they would have been less compelled to stick their neck out to save him, but you get what I mean. The flipside is rong flipping v gives a v lean to gabe.

rescind jkds, lynch rong he's got to go

[Luco]

Fair enough I guess no interaction isn't a valid suspicion here. What do you think of Ong's vote though?

I could take it either way, but I don't know if I've ever seen a buddy bold with such a quick rescind

kinda null

[Hoopy]

Thank you. I'm trying my best to help the villas here. I don't have any meta on the people playing here so I can't make reads on how they've played in the past. So, please provide votes and reads with reasons to help the new guy out.

Some useful meta. gabe & JKDS are probably the best players in the game, wuf hasn't been a wolf in a long time, me/luco/rong are all UK based.

some weird shit has just happened. Wuf and i agree on something. Now i'm worried that my read is terri-bad
based on his 'got=no-time-guise' shit and how much has now happened in this game it's kinda lock that he'll be no use to the village in the unlikely scenario that he's villager, and will remain a huge diversion until lynched due to day 1 wagon stuff around ong's lynch over monstr, and most likely scenario is he's wolf. I don't see why we would lynch anyone else today.

Inclined to agree with the confirmed villager here.

[Luco]

BankitDrew - spazzy, quick "soulread" on me based on nothing, I'm feeling slightly iffy about drew.
Boog - sup, post shit, talk about stuff. Null.
Daven - getting good vibes off daven but he's a very good wolf so I'm not happy giving him too many v points. Leaning villager.
Dhubermex - didn't claim vanilla. Probably not a wolf because he'd surely just stick to his usual first post and adjust next time he's a villager.
Gabe - standard d1 gabe. Null.
Hoopy - feels like a villager, he's always a villager though, I can't remember what hoopywolf looks like.
JKDS - activity is null but his keybored vote is iffy. Leaning wolf.
Keith - wanker
Keybored - I have reason to think he's a villager.
Luco - I feel like luco's suspicion is sincere, leaning villager.
MadMojoMonkey - very villagery vibes.
Monstrman - his posts read awkward, like he's not in his comfort zone. I'm leaning wolf/SK.
OngBonga - mvp already
Rong - lurking like a boss. Null.
Wufwugy - he feels like villager wuf, but noone knows what wolf wuf feels like. Leaning villager.

I have to resist the urge to try and read much into this

[rong]

For anyone who was on monster when he outed, was there a third choice wagon or was ong the only alternative. That matters in terms of giving those that switched villager cred.

[rong]

I can't argue with lucos dead weight comment. Sorry again, I suck these days.

[rong]

The funny thing is, I would clear me for the same reason I always manage to clear wuf (this game aside) but nobody else thinks like me. That may be a good thing in general.

[Luco]

For anyone who was on monster when he outed, was there a third choice wagon or was ong the only alternative. That matters in terms of giving those that switched villager cred.

30 minutes to go and this was the VC

Ong 4
Monstrman 4
Keybored 2
Daven 2
Hoopy 1
BID 1

I'm the only living player who switched after this VC, from daven to ong when ong-monstr were at 5-5

fwiw I think ong would have lost the tie breaker?

Boog switched at same time so it finished 7-4

[Luco]

No, monstr hit 5 first and would have lost at 5-5

Boog and I definitely killed ong

[Luco]

The funny thing is, I would clear me for the same reason I always manage to clear wuf (this game aside) but nobody else thinks like me. That may be a good thing in general.

What reason is that? I know you're not helping the village right now but if you're not a wolf then lynching you isn't going to help us either.

[Luco]

Can anyone make a case for a villager gabe here? I cant

I mean sure he went for ong but remember when him and keith had that d1 fight? iirc we all thought it was planned but it turned out gabe just said in the den 'sorry but if you look wolfy I gotta call you on it', and ong certainly looked wolfy this game

[Hoopy]

Can we get a vote count baudib?

[Hoopy]

going over the thread again, i dont think wuf is likely to be a wolf. hes posted stuff that i think is wrong but its not in a wolfy way. when some players post stuff i disagree with, it makes them wolfy, but not wufwugy

i think the most dangerous players are hoopy and lilrascal, and to a lesser extent daven (if we are reading BID wrong, which seems pretty unlikely)

rong is still suspicious and it will be a mistake to let him get to endgame without being audited

hoopy skates by without his posts having meaning. hes never involved, although hes posting. hoopy has skills enough to be slipping by here

lilrascal is dangerous because he clearly knows werewolf, but has a completely clean history here. hes not a newb, he should have an idea on how he can not set off any alarm bells

jkds is far from clear although i dont think hes lynchable in this field. we have work to do, and his big posts usually help me line things up

I've been trying to find wolves, and apart from me missing the day 2 vote my involvement has been decent.

Agree about lilrascal & rong.

I'm not sure on wuf. That JKDS soulread is more like he normally plays.

JKDS is leaning villager, though I get nervous when he's quieter.

[JKDS]

unvote gabe, lynch luco

Gabe can be villa again now that it seems some villagers got different pms like mmm. And im almost positive luco is a wolf at this point.

I think luco is a wolf with ong. Ong likes to think about getting cleared wolves from vote analysis, he's done it before, and by the end of day 1 he would have known he was done for whether that day or the next, his days were numbered. Combine that with luco stalking the thread around eod.

That scenario is just so ong, it would also be so Keith, not so much anyone else here. I'd bet money ong would have told the others to throw him under a bus, especially given the spaz move that got him lynched anyway, he probably planned to somehow sacrifice himself and in the process take out a cleared villager (Keith and replacement) and get cover for fellow wolves.

This is completely true about ong. And when we combine that with the below, it makes 100% sense that a wolf would join his wagon.

Something's come up, I gotta go out. Just lynch me, problem solved. Sorry for spazzing.

He posted this while in the lead at 4-3 votes, with ~1hr till deadline. . We know ong wasnt around at deadline and was legit gone, because otherwise he'd have used the dayvig shot he got when Monstr outed at deadline. Given who ong is, I think its almost guarenteed that he encouraged wolves to kill him. However, the inverse is that wolves would not want to try and save him. What wolf would defend an afk near-dead wolf, and be painted with suspicion for it?

rescind wuf, lynch monster

Rong made this post ~35min from deadline, putting it at 4-4. Ong is in the lead still, and wins tiebreaks. Rong isnt a wolf, because this is suicide if nothing else happens.

Luco eventually kills ong, but I think i've been giving it too much weight. Ong would have wanted wolves to kill him and would have warned against helping him.

Rereading Luco without that blinder, and I am convinced he is a wolf.

Luco voted ong early in the game, left the vote there, but ignored the entire fight between BID and Ong. I say "ignored" because luco was posting noncontent while this was happening, and didnt address this fight. Ong isnt necessarily in danger at this point, and I can totally see luco being a wolf who didnt know how to address this fight given his current vote on ong. Pursuing ong would help kill a wolf in the early game when that player has a dayvig shot. Defending ong would look suspicious given the ong vote. Luco didnt know what to do here, so he didnt talk about it.

Ong then shoots keith, luco posts a bunch of posts attacking ong for it.

ong is either a wolf or a goldfish

To quote villager ong from last game, don't act on emotion

I don't know why you would ever shoot him as a villager

'Keith needs to be shot because he's never getting lynched' is den logic, not villager logic. You have no right to wave a 'not thinking this through' card at anyone right now

He attacks ong here because Ong just did an incredibly wolfy thing. Using the vig shot here was also obviously discussed (like how nk's are regularly discussed, so would dayvig kills). The response would be discussed as well. This is the safe way to go about it, by attacking ong, since if the wolfy action did look wolfy then people defending ong are suspect.

But Ong doesnt get insta lynched for it.

Then Luco gets off of ong...

It wouldn't surprise me if the two most anti village actions on d1 both came from villagers (ong and keith).

rescind ong

Yes mojo, I was on ong.

Not sure where to aim next. Someone lurky or murky I guess

This is a very weak reason to get off of ong, especially considering the wolfiness of the keith shot. This is a wolf reacting to the ong-shot by going after him, then backing off because the village didnt find it as incriminating as the wolves thought.

Luco makes one last post justifying the switch, then doesnt mention ong until killing him at EOD. At a point in time when ong gave up, was no longer in the thread, and conceivably told the wolves to let him die or kill him.

We also know that Luco was "watching" the thread during the EOD at that time. He did so at the grocery store, because it was near deadline and its important to watch the thread at deadline. He was watching even though he thought both lynchee's were villagers.

I had ong as somewhat more wolfy than monstr but honestly at the time it felt like the two leading wagons were v-v, so I wasn't overly concerned with which one died until I saw monstr's hardclaim.

Ok. But he wasnt around on Day2's EOD, when boog was lynched. He posted 3hours before deadline to rescind a vote, and didnt post again that day. This lynched also involved a villager, but it also invovled Rong who luco then thought wasnt wolfy enough to lynch. In spite of this, Luco didnt post near deadline to influence the vote.

So for one deadline, Luco thought it was important enough to post and be around even though he was otherwise busy shopping and the lynch involved people he thought were villagers and he "wasnt overly concerned". For another deadline, Luco wasnt around at all and the lynch involved boog (villa) and rong who luco previously led a charge to kill before thinking he was a villager.

The only difference I see with these two deadlines to justify such a change in stance is that the first deadline involved the lynch of a wolf.

Boog and I definitely killed ong

Where was this "boog and I" talk on day2 when Boog was on the ropes? Luco didnt bring it up on day2, and didnt argue against boogs lynch on day2, but now that villager boog is dead its "boog and I killed ong". I made this point that boog was a villager b/c of this on day 2, so this isnt a novel idea just thought up by luco. Its an opinion he didnt choose to voice then to save boog, but he is using now to save himself. Lucos a wolf.

[Luco]

Actually the only reason I missed eod 2 is for some reason I thought it ended monday, not sunday. I do feel stupid for it but theres nothing sinister behind it

To make things worse - i was given the triple vote on d2

[Luco]

its also why im trying to redeem myself today and how i know what the blind seers message meant (spurning a gift from the gods)

[Luco]

jkds dont just mega post and disappear, i have a better chance of figuring you out if we spar in real time

[Luco]

And youre ignoring the fundamental fact that i didnt have to post at all eod 1

[Luco]

I'm looking at that mega post and it loses a bunch of credibility at the point where you say rong is never a wolf for joining the d1 counterwagon yet you're almost positive I'm a wolf for hammering ong.

[rong]

Meh, you can view anything any way you choose. As someone I have suspected today who has some potential to take off, me bolding you is a no brainer.

lynch luco

[JKDS]

its also why im trying to redeem myself today and how i know what the blind seers message meant (spurning a gift from the gods)

K, but being a triple voter doesnt mean you're not a wolf. Ong had a dayvig power, which was in the same list as the triple voting power was. Can you show me why spurring a gift from the gods" was speaking to a particular faction? I didnt see anything like that, only a reference to enemies, but i dont have time to heavily analyze the narrative.

And youre ignoring the fundamental fact that i didnt have to post at all eod 1

Didnt you? The last post you made about ong before that was to unvote him for a weak reason even though you previously lead a charge. If ong gets viged, seer'd, or otherwise found to be a wolf, that would have looked terrible for you. Lynching him instead when hes given up in thread and looks suspicious would grant great cover and ong would support doing just that.

I'm looking at that mega post and it loses a bunch of credibility at the point where you say rong is never a wolf for joining the d1 counterwagon yet you're almost positive I'm a wolf for hammering ong.

How is rong ever a wolf when he does that? Ong is dying and left the thread. There is a half hour till deadline, ong is at 4 votes to 3. Rong votes monster, making it tied at 4 with ong still dying. A wolf never ever ever ever does this. There is almost no benefit for a huge amount of risk. If no one votes with so little time left, then ong dies and rong's last post was effectively defending him. If someone votes but they vote ong, same thing. Rong voting in this way doesnt actually save ong either, he still needs help. So for minimal benefit, Rong puts himself in a position of massive scrutinty if things didnt go exactly as they did.

Meanwhile, you stand to gain a huge amount by hammering ong. You make up for defending him earlier, and give yourself great cover. This aint farfetched.

[wufwugy]

im pretty locked in with rong, hoopy, and jkds for loki

btw, it is probable that a wolf was on ong and he was accidentally lynched. like hoopy bolded him then went to bed and they didnt fully realize ong was on the verge of death. every time ive seen a d1 wolf death, it's because the other wolves majorly screwed up

[wufwugy]

i cant use the logic i used to get off boog but not use it for luco. in luco's spot, if he's a wolf, it means he chose to kill a wolf instead of the vig. i got off boog becasue in that positition the wolf fistpumps and worries about optics later

rongwolf would totally make it 4v4 with 30 mins left. still, it doesnt matter because everything he's done itt is pro-wolf. i dont see how he's a villager

jkds is making all sorts of points the opposite of what i think he thinks are reasonable. it's funny how he woke up after i smacked him with the loki accusation. anyways, i do not think he believes luco is a likely wolf while rong is a likely not-wolf

[Luco]

jkds why u looking at the rong vote in isolation? he had already indicated he would vote monstr over ong, damage was done there so the timing of his vote doesnt change anything for him. Theres a massive disconnect in how you see rongs vote compared to mine

[wufwugy]

rong - luco
jkds - luco
luco - rong
hoopy - rong
daven - rong
wuf - rong

luco - 2
rong - 4

no vote - rascal, gabe

[JKDS]

jkds why u looking at the rong vote in isolation? he had already indicated he would vote monstr over ong, damage was done there so the timing of his vote doesnt change anything for him. Theres a massive disconnect in how you see rongs vote compared to mine

No he didnt.

I'm ok with ong because the shot was imo stupid. I'm also ok with daven as he's going to be afk a lot. I have little else to add ad it's day one. Well, one thing, it was odd that ong kept on defending monster when to me the argument of him being the probable triple vote had little substance. Maybe if monster goes down we can have a serious look at ong.

I dont think rong gets any suspicion for this post normally, and the only reason he has any suspicion right now is because you pointed out how he was on the monstr wagon on day2, something even the most novice player would see coming and try to avoid if they knew ong was a wolf. There is no incentive to avoid it if he doesnt know ong is a wolf, and that is the only reason he'd have voted monstr there.

[JKDS]

@Wuf: Why do you think my points against luco are unreasonable? How does it make any sense for rong to do what he did in that spot, and how do you possibly disagree with the sentiment that ong wanted wolves to vote him? You say im talking crazy, but its beyond bizarre that you are against these points given you have arguably more exp playing with ong than I do.

[JKDS]

Wuf, gimme your case against rong. Then after, explain how it makes sense even though rong put himself in the open to make it 4v4 (even though that doesnt save ong) and how his exchange with ong after the keith shot is not incredibly tone pure for rong.

[wufwugy]

@Wuf: Why do you think my points against luco are unreasonable?

If he's a wolf, it means the wolves decided to kill Ong and save the vig in order to give Luco vilcred. That sort of thing can happen, but I think this is an extreme example. I think that even if Ong wanted the wolves to hedge against him, they wouldn't sacrifice a mislynch on the vig by getting a not-mislynch on a wolf. Boog made this case and it's the reason I debolded him

How does it make any sense for rong to do what he did in that spot

The way he wolfs is waiting and seeing, showing up late. He's not the trickiest bastard most of the time. Shortly before he voted for Ong, Ong expressed frustration that he was going to die. I think it reasonable that Rongwolf would just put his vote on Monstr in the hopes that it helps. He doesn't get overly scrutinized for it either if Ong flips wolf since his vote didn't save Ong.

It is probable that at least one other wolf was on Monstr. Of course, maybe the wolves screwed up so bad that it was just Ong, but that's not the most likely. The last would either be on a different counterwagon (like you on Keybored), or on Ong. They could be on Ong by accident or as a hedge, but I don't get the impression that it's reasonable to think Ong was launched under the bus

and how do you possibly disagree with the sentiment that ong wanted wolves to vote him? You say im talking crazy, but its beyond bizarre that you are against these points given you have arguably more exp playing with ong than I do.

I think Ong may have told others to get on him at some point, which could explain if Hoopy is a wolf, but it's a whole different ballgame if it's in Luco's position. From Luco's perspective, Ong didn't have to die and instead the vig could have

Wuf, gimme your case against rong.

I kinda already did, but I'll do it again.

If you have a list of twenty different wolf traits and you're running down it to see what you can check, you'd mark 16 of them for Rong. Things like "stop lynching me guise let me defend" then never defending and saying "do whatevs yo" when he's in the clear.

His bolds have all been backwards. He was on the Monstr and Boog deathwagons. Everybody who has bolded him is either a dead villager or me or a probable villager in Luco. He's the last remaining from the Monstr wagon. He's playing his wolf game by a lot. He and Hoopy never mentioned each other. Maybe the last is just a coincidence

Then after, explain how it makes sense even though rong put himself in the open to make it 4v4 (even though that doesnt save ong) and how his exchange with ong after the keith shot is not incredibly tone pure for rong.

The tone thing doesn't mean anything to me. Rong's v and w tones are the same.

It doesn't make a terrible amount of sense for Rong to bold Monstr when he did, but I think he does that as a wolf. Way too often we've seen wolves do the straightfoward thing. What could have happened is Rong just got online and saw Ong was going down and decided to try to help. Most of what wolves do is straightforward

[wufwugy]

I know what you're doing JerKDS. You're trying to tell the wolves that since you're protecting one of them (Rong) and assaulting the person the village thinks is most likely villager (Luco), you're not a threat to them

It ain't gonna work sucka. Tricky dicky play ne'er gets past this fly mama jama

[wufwugy]

ofc now that i have a non-insignificant amount of confidence in my soulreads, it means i have to be wrong about them

[JKDS]

If he's a wolf, it means the wolves decided to kill Ong and save the vig in order to give Luco vilcred. That sort of thing can happen, but I think this is an extreme example. I think that even if Ong wanted the wolves to hedge against him, they wouldn't sacrifice a mislynch on the vig by getting a not-mislynch on a wolf. Boog made this case and it's the reason I debolded him

You say that like wolves want to kill the vig. There are far too many people on this site who think the vig is pro-wolf to come to that conclusion. The real question is whether they would kill ong, and they obviously would. He advocates in soooo many games that he should be attacked if he gets heat.

Re rong stuff

The way he wolfs is waiting and seeing, showing up late. He's not the trickiest bastard most of the time. Shortly before he voted for Ong, Ong expressed frustration that he was going to die. I think it reasonable that Rongwolf would just put his vote on Monstr in the hopes that it helps. He doesn't get overly scrutinized for it either if Ong flips wolf since his vote didn't save Ong.

(emphasis added)

If Rong doesnt get scrutinized for his monstr vote when it doesnt save ong, then we must be reading two different threads. You say its a safe play to vote monstr there, when we have clear evidence to the contrary.

It is probable that at least one other wolf was on Monstr. Of course, maybe the wolves screwed up so bad that it was just Ong, but that's not the most likely. The last would either be on a different counterwagon (like you on Keybored), or on Ong. They could be on Ong by accident or as a hedge, but I don't get the impression that it's reasonable to think Ong was launched under the bus

Where is the evidence for that assumption? 2/5 players on a wagon were wolves? Maybe in ftr ww 5 years ago, but that isnt how it is now. In every single game now, when a wolf is lynched people go after those who were on the other wagon. Every single time. Ya, more wolves on that wagon gives a greater chance to save ong, but it also means a guaranteed loss if ong got lynched. Standard wolf play isnt to pile on like that, but diversify.

Meanwhile, there is almost always one wolf bussing another. We havent even considered the ong wagon or if it make sense, even though there almost has to be a wolf on it given his 7 votes.

If you have a list of twenty different wolf traits and you're running down it to see what you can check, you'd mark 16 of them for Rong. Things like "stop lynching me guise let me defend" then never defending and saying "do whatevs yo" when he's in the clear.

The "let me defend" point is one i brought up against him before. Its no longer a good point, because clearly some number of villagers are non-vanilla in addition to odin/thor. Its not as simple as just odin/thor/wolf/loki

His bolds have all been backwards. He was on the Monstr and Boog deathwagons. Everybody who has bolded him is either a dead villager or me or a probable villager in Luco. He's the last remaining from the Monstr wagon. He's playing his wolf game by a lot. He and Hoopy never mentioned each other. Maybe the last is just a coincidence

Everybody wanting to kill him makes me more hesitant to lynch him, not less. Wolf wagons are hard, villa wagons are easy.

The tone thing doesn't mean anything to me. Rong's v and w tones are the same.

It doesn't make a terrible amount of sense for Rong to bold Monstr when he did, but I think he does that as a wolf. Way too often we've seen wolves do the straightfoward thing. What could have happened is Rong just got online and saw Ong was going down and decided to try to help. Most of what wolves do is straightforward

Its not straightforward though. To say voting Monstr is straightforward and standard is to pretend wolves dont think about their actions.

[wufwugy]

you certainly argue well

[wufwugy]

the bottom line about luco is that your argument against him is essentially "look at all these villy things he did, he must be a wolf"

about rong, my argument is "look at all these wolfy things he did, he must be a wolf"

it's not outside of the realm of possibility that you're right and im wrong, but im not sure how weighted towards fps our reads should be

[wufwugy]

also i think i have a line on your baddy strategy because it's partly my baddy strategy. not gonna say what specifically it is, but it's very effective imo

[baudib]

Sorry guys, I'm deep in a PLO tournament at Borgata. I will post some updates/vote counts later tonight. If you lose you can blame the mod AIDS for this.

I knocked out James Woods BTW.

[MadMojoMonkey]

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
<<< V O T E ~ C O U N T >>>
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

player (# votes) - who's voting for them {post count}

rong (4) - daven {7}, hoopy {15}, Luco {40}, wuf {29}
Luco(2) - JKDS {11}, rong {19}

Not Voting - gabe {11}, lilrascal {5}

Tie breaker order:
1 vote: rong, JKDS, gabe, Luco
2 votes: rong, Luco
3 votes: rong
4 votes: rong

[wufwugy]

I feel bad for my team regardless of role.

heh

pov slip

[lilrascal]

Post 1 of 5 for Tuesday.

I just got back from dinner with my wife. I did a quick skim of the thread since last night and there doesn't appear to be a whole lot for me to comment on. My leading wolf candidate from IRL yesterday is the leader in the vote count.

I'll do a more thorough read of the thread and respond in my remaining 4 posts for IRL today.

[wufwugy]

I'm ok with ong because the shot was imo stupid.

Wuf going nowhere ong, so onwards. I can't see ong wolf shooting Keith. I'm thinking he's more likely to do it as a villager, although it is ducking retarded.

These were within two hours of each other, right before the deadline and his bold on ong.

[wufwugy]

daven+drew and one of hoopy/boog

rule of threes/fours/whatever

daven the unlikely wolf of the list. hoopy the likely wolf of the list

[gabe]

every post makes me switch back n forth between luco n rong

the hard evidence makes me want to vote for rong. these are just the general wolfy traits that wuf alluded to. "ill post alot of stuff later guys!" is such a typical wolfy cop out. if jkds believes the luco-wolf theory is possible then rong could somehow be a wolf too. jkds doesnt convince me rong is safe.

jkds does a pretty good job of making luco look bad. luco also is doing that thing i called out gator for doing last game. the thing is when a wolf casts his own thoughts and theories onto someone else. luco wants to hang me because the only villagery thing ive done is vote for ong. well shit the only villagery thing hes done is vote for ong! and hes wrong about me

i needed to get these thoughts out of the way before i reread again

[gabe]

what do you guys think of the present vote counts? the wagon sizes wouldnt make you think rong is the wolf

rong - luco
jkds - luco
luco - rong
hoopy - rong
daven - rong
wuf - rong

luco - 2
rong - 4

no vote - rascal, gabe

[wufwugy]

I'm not sure baudib was aiming for this game to be balanced.

hmmm i dont recall baud saying anything about this pregame. could be he said it in the den

However I agree the wolves wouldn't use it early as it's potentially a late game winner.

so originally after the dayvig, hoopy didnt think ong was a wolf

12 hours later hoops does his wolfy "questioning ong" post then bolds him

Rong - lurking like a boss. Null.

pov slip

he knows rong is lurking. he wouldnt say "like a boss" to describe vilrong lurking

[lilrascal]

Post 2 of 5 for Tuesday.

I was planning on doing an isolation of each person's responses for IRL today along with my take on them, but that quickly become very cumbersome and not as helpful as I would have hoped. Therefore, I'll do a summary of those players that I feel are being villagery by trying to solve the game and then post my thoughts on the most likely wolf.

[wufwugy]

what do you guys think of the present vote counts? the wagon sizes wouldnt make you think rong is the wolf

meh only two wolves left (one sk). their voting power isnt amazing. if rong is a wolf, it's reasonable that the other wolf is already on him (*cough* hoopy). he knows he's doomed

rong isnt that far ahead either.

[wufwugy]

I've been trying to find wolves, and apart from me missing the day 2 vote my involvement has been decent.

i feel like vilhoops would say "i was early on the ong wagon, doofus"

ofc not with the doofus part, hoops never says an unkind word about anybody. but still. it's like he forgot if he thinks of himself as a villager, he would mostly think accusations that he's not doing much are off base because he used some sick reading skills to find ong

[wufwugy]

Wolfy post!

Easy way to appear active without having to think of things to say.

Not directly agreeing with JKDS but pushing village attention onto someone else.

lynch rong

major weaksauce rationale. looks like he just needs to get on rong for optics

funny how just a half hour earlier he posted this

ong votes wuf without giving a reason that I can see but then quickly rescinds. I agree with JKDS that this is fishy.

yet he bolds the guy that i am pushing hard for

[lilrascal]

Post 3 of 5 for Tuesday.

Here's what I consider the most pertinent of Luco's posts since IRL last night and my take on them:

This is in response to JKDS:

I think 'watching' the thread sounds less negative.

I had ong as somewhat more wolfy than monstr but honestly at the time it felt like the two leading wagons were v-v, so I wasn't overly concerned with which one died until I saw monstr's hardclaim.

I think it's an over reaction by Luco to a post about his EOD, but I find it role-neutral. However, I do like Luco's response to Monstr's hard claim, which a villa should be concerned about.


This is in response to JKDS:

Rong and I were wolves together in the game that made pm referencing an issue so I HATE using it.

JKDS and daven you should note that mojo had different wording but still wasn't a wolf.

I'm not sure about the game you're referring to, but referring to PM's is bad, but responding to death posts about other characters that were posted by the mod should never be an issue.

The second sentence is very villagery in that it points out the facts clearly for everyone to see. Confusion is a weapon for the wolves, and clarity is vilagery.


This is in response to Hoopy:

But loki isn't a villager?

Again, another villagery post pointing out the facts from the OP that others may have missed. Based on the OP, BID got a random peek of a villager, not someone that would peek as a villager.


The next several posts are doing some villa work in trying to solve the game with rationale and more facts:

Ong 7 – bid mojo gabe hoopy monstr luco boog
Monstrman 4 – ong key rong daven
Keybored 1 - JKDS
Daven 1 – Nobody (silly mod)
Hoopy 1 - Wuf
BID 1 – Dhuber aka rascal

Take out the dead:

Ong 7 – gabe hoopy luco
Monstrman 4 – rong daven
Keybored 1 - JKDS
Daven 1 – Nobody (silly mod)
Hoopy 1 - Wuf
BID 1 – Dhuber aka rascal

Ok, here's where I'm at.

Daven - We can just clear him and blame Bankitdrew if we lose, yay! (Legit strat!)

Or...


Notice in that last quote his reason for towning ong is just parroting JKDS, who made the same game balance comment before this. My problem with this is - he calls ong wolf when others call him wolf, then calls ong villager when others are calling him villager.

Also, lots of his early reads are now dead villagers. If it wasn't for drew daven would definitely be in the running here

Gabe - D1 definitely looks good for gabe


D2 and D3 I'm flip flopping on, on the one hand (the wolfy hand) he's not finding villagers like usual and he's asking irreverent questions (and keeps saying he's confused), but on the other hand I'm seeing flashes of villager gabe in some of those posts. Still, low content for a villager

Hoopy - Hoops also has a good D1 post:


All his posts read to me like a villager trying to figure this out. Once you subtract his 'always looks wolfy' baseline nothing he has said has really pinged me.

And I know hoopy hasn't been wolf in ages but I have seen him wolf at least twice and there is a key difference in the way he presents himself when he's wolfin imo

JKDS - Opened with a defense of ong:

Which I think on balance is a v lean for jkds, ong was in zero trouble there so it's an odd spot for a wolf to defend especially as it's jkds' opening post.

Pretty much in absentia for D1 though. D2 he really pushed wuf over rong and as stated I don't know how genuine this is. If rong flips wolf that will be two spots where jkds has defended a wolf but in an unusual, kinda non-wolfy way.

I do have a question for you JKDS - you said boog and I were near-confirmed, and I feel my switch vote was way clearer than boog's, so why are you even suspicious of me at all?

I'm in the same place with jkds as I am with gabe - leaning wolf, seeing flashes of villager, but really too low content to form a solid read

lilrascal - dhuber looked bad but rascal is pulling up on the stick quite hard imo. Looking forward to him hitting 15 posts, villager for now

Rong - threadflow puts him in a really bad spot - he was around on EoD 1 but never switched, he isn't really looking game-solvey either - look at his opening posts d2, while hoops, boog, mojo and I are speculating about people he's musing over which night kill belonged to which faction? He has 60 posts but has focused more on mechanics than player alignment, more than any other person itt. If nothing else he's dead weight.

One thing I've found in his defense - near EoD 1 he spoke to ong directly and said 'wuf is going nowhere ong, onward' which I'm giving rong a v lean for as on balance it's slightly more likely to be v/w than w/w but that's all.

Wufwugy - I had him leaning villager from a n1 readthrough based on the fact that when wuf voted hoopy ong's next post was 'I'm with wuf, hoopy is wolfy'. In my experience this points to wuf being more likely V than W as wolves don't often double team like that

That's the main one, that and he sounds like his usual self.


So yeah Gabe, jkds, rong, maybe daven if BID has derped. If rong flips wolf it somewhat lends weight to gabe being the last wolf based on the D1 VC - having exactly one wolf on each main wagon would mean the wolves were playing bad because they didn't influence the vote. It does happen, and it could have happened here because ong was a derp so they would have been less compelled to stick their neck out to save him, but you get what I mean. The flipside is rong flipping v gives a v lean to gabe.

rescind jkds, lynch rong he's got to go

30 minutes to go and this was the VC

Ong 4
Monstrman 4
Keybored 2
Daven 2
Hoopy 1
BID 1

I'm the only living player who switched after this VC, from daven to ong when ong-monstr were at 5-5

fwiw I think ong would have lost the tie breaker?

Boog switched at same time so it finished 7-4

No, monstr hit 5 first and would have lost at 5-5

Boog and I definitely killed ong

The next couple of posts concern the triple vote and are new information:

Actually the only reason I missed eod 2 is for some reason I thought it ended monday, not sunday. I do feel stupid for it but theres nothing sinister behind it

To make things worse - i was given the triple vote on d2

its also why im trying to redeem myself today and how i know what the blind seers message meant (spurning a gift from the gods)

If you're given the triple vote power for D2, as a villa, how do you not know when D2 ends. You rescinded your vote which led to Boog getting lynched instead of Rong, which is who you were voting for when you rescinded.

This is what I find the most troubling, especially when I was reading you as a villa both in my initial read and in most of the posts I quoted above.

Please answer the following questions as I feel they are pertinent to understanding your position with regards to the triple vote.

Did you get the triple vote before or after you rescinded your vote?

And why did you rescind your vote?

[lilrascal]

Post 4 of 5 for Tuesday.

I think I'll take a different approach to the thread IRL tonight since there's less to respond to with about 50 posts since my post IRL last night. I'll take it a person at a time for their responses since my last post IRL last night.

Here's Rong's posts since IRL last night and my take on them:

I think luco is a wolf with ong. Ong likes to think about getting cleared wolves from vote analysis, he's done it before, and by the end of day 1 he would have known he was done for whether that day or the next, his days were numbered. Combine that with luco stalking the thread around eod.

That scenario is just so ong, it would also be so Keith, not so much anyone else here. I'd bet money ong would have told the others to throw him under a bus, especially given the spaz move that got him lynched anyway, he probably planned to somehow sacrifice himself and in the process take out a cleared villager (Keith and replacement) and get cover for fellow wolves.

This post is based on how Ong would play the game and Rong is trying to force a wolf read on Luco based on how he says Ong would play this, but not on Luco's actual posting. This sounds like a wolf (Rong) trying to make a case on a villager (Luco).

For anyone who was on monster when he outed, was there a third choice wagon or was ong the only alternative. That matters in terms of giving those that switched villager cred.

Again, this is a wolfy post. If you're going to try and make a case against someone based on wagons, go and look at the wagons rather than ask others to do that.

Monstr hard claimed in #395 with the latest vote count in #388 at:

Ong 4
Monstrman 4
Keybored 2
Daven 2
Hoopy 1
BID 1

Then Boog changed his vote in #394 from Keybored to Monstr making monstr the lead wagon with 10 minutes until EOD and Ong the only viable counter wagon.

This only took me a couple of minutes to put together. As a villa, you should do your homework before asking these types of questions. As a wolf, asking these types of questions creates confusion for the villas.

I stand by my statement that this is a wolfy post.

I can't argue with lucos dead weight comment. Sorry again, I suck these days.

I'm not sure what to say beyond what I stated with regards to your previous post above.

The funny thing is, I would clear me for the same reason I always manage to clear wuf (this game aside) but nobody else thinks like me. That may be a good thing in general.

I actually don't know what to make of this post other than it adds to your post count and it makes you look like you're still trying to interact.

Meh, you can view anything any way you choose. As someone I have suspected today who has some potential to take off, me bolding you is a no brainer.

lynch luco

This post is so meh as you say. Luco provided some things for you to respond to and you only say "meh". I'm glad you're reinforcing my read from my very first post that you are a wolf.

[lilrascal]

Post 5 of 5 for Tuesday.

After rereading each person in isolation today I have the following reads on all the alive players:
Daven - No posts in since IRL last night. I still feel he is a clear villa based on BID's post and him being the first one to call out Ong on his vig of Keith.
Hoopy - I still read you as villa, but I feel your contribution in IRL today has been somewhat lacking.
lilrascal - I know I'm villa and I'm still working on proving that to the rest of the villas.

JKDS - I'm starting to read you more as villa than neutral based on your contributions in IRL today.
Luco - See my earlier post for details on my thoughts on Luco. I had you as one of my villas, but now I'm unsure. Your handling of the triple vote on D2 is very troubling for me. Please answer my questions in my earlier post.

Wufwogy - I really don't know what to make of you in this game. You appear very wolfy to me, but I can't see you and Rong as w/w and I think Rong is definitely a wolf. I see you trying to make some cases in the game, but they're all from your POV and they don't seem to take into account how others would see it which makes them less powerful.

Gabe - I still find you to be somewhat wolfy overall in the game, but your IRL today has been much better. I have you more as a wolf lean than a lock wolf, but that's mainly based on POE.
Rong - See my earlier post for details on my thoughts on Rong. I originally read you as a wolf and you've done nothing to change my mind.

Rong is still my strongest wolf candidate, so I say Lynch Rong for now. I could change my mind based on new evidence, but that's where I stand for now.

This is important: Based on the current state of the game, with 8 players left (5 villas, 2 wolves and 1 neutral SK) we can't afford a mislynch. If we get this one wrong, then that leaves us at 4 villas going into the night with the wolf NK and the SK possibly going for the win with the wolves, we would be at 2 villas, 2 wolves and the SK which would be game over.

[wufwugy]

Wufwogy - I see you trying to make some cases in the game, but they're all from your POV and they don't seem to take into account how others would see it which makes them less powerful.

When you get a chance, it would be cool if you can explain what you mean. Because it is an accurate thing to say. I'm just curious why you see it.

Easily my biggest failing at this game is being stuck inside my own POV. Everybody has this in life to a degree, ofc

[rong]

jkds dont just mega post and disappear, i have a better chance of figuring you out if we spar in real time

heh

pov slip

That's not a slip, it's a team game and I've been missing and lazy. Regardless of alignment I don't like this.

[Luco]

Did you get the triple vote before or after you rescinded your vote?

And why did you rescind your vote?

I was granted the triple vote at commencement of D2, and I rescinded because I assumed rong was going to follow up on his promise.

I thought I had more time. There have been previous discussions about not ending the day on a weekend and I'm not sure what happened, I must have been on my mobile and skimming because I thought baud's post said he wouldn't be ending the day on a weekend which is why I thought monday. Looking back what he actually said was he wouldn't end it in the middle of the weekend. I know I should have double checked.

Also I was mentally banking on 'd2 ends in xx hours' warnings like we had on D1, we never got these. When I woke up monday morning I was ~3hrs too late

It sucks because this is the second consecutive special game I've had where I've dropped the ball. I would probably have rebolded rong, that's where I was headed. I am absolutely the reason that boog died yesterday and there's no getting away from that, which is why I've been all over D3 since the B in Bang

[rong]

Liking the colour coding and clear concise posts from rascal. Keith and ong take note.

Re me, if lunching me loses the game for the village then don't do it. If we can survive my death then go for it. I can't see me having the time to be helpful. Although I'd say my take on luco was pretty dam good and nearly ajways accurate.

[rong]

Also, rascal, I simply don't have the time to go back and check things as I'm playing from my phone and short on time, which is why I'm asking others to check things I think of rather than doing it myself.

[gabe]

you consider this a special game because you were given powers for 1 day? that and other stuff youve said doesnt fit.

also im very skeptical of lilrascal. like this paragraph

"This post is based on how Ong would play the game and Rong is trying to force a wolf read on Luco based on how he says Ong would play this, but not on Luco's actual posting. This sounds like a wolf (Rong) trying to make a case on a villager (Luco)."

this is a good representation of what he does. summarize a post, then add an opinionated, yet uncontroversial twist. since he has not been under fire hes free to get by while doing this. everyone else in the village has had someone else raise an eyebrow at them, except for lilrascal. we agree he seems like he has werewolf experience so why else would he post in this manner? he even has a good ruse for posting obvious filler... "on my way to 15 posts, guys!!"

[Luco]

JKDS you've made some decent points about rong, enough to make me nervous. But here's the rub - if it ain't rong, and BID didn't derp on daven, then that imo only really leaves you and gabe

You also make a solid point that with 7 votes, it was v likely that a wolf was on ong. But here's the rub:

Ong 7 – bid mojo gabe hoopy monstr luco boog
Monstrman 4 – ong key rong daven
Keybored 1 - JKDS
Daven 1 – Nobody (silly mod)
Hoopy 1 - Wuf
BID 1 – Dhuber aka rascal

Take out the dead:

Ong 7 – gabe hoopy luco
Monstrman 4 – rong daven
Keybored 1 - JKDS
Daven 1 – Nobody (silly mod)
Hoopy 1 - Wuf
BID 1 – Dhuber aka rascal

You're ignoring gabe. We've already heard your argument about why a rongwolf is so unreasonable compared to a lucowolf, so now I'd LOVE to hear why a gabewolf is oh-so unlikely compared to a lucowolf. Gabe is more than capable of going hard at a wolf D1:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es-196990.html

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/fc7b3XUtiQHXn

See Gabe and keith's posts in the game thread D1 and also Gabe's #15 in the den, he clearly states he will go after wolfy players including wolves.

(also rascal, coincidentally this is the game I mentioned where I dropped the ball as a seer)

[gabe]

i like the color coding too but the more i think about it, with how he posts, its kinda wolfy

it just does a certain thing to his image, which i think he realizes

[Luco]

you consider this a special game because you were given powers for 1 day? that and other stuff youve said doesnt fit.

Now you're just arguing semantics.

[Luco]

Liking the colour coding and clear concise posts from rascal. Keith and ong take note.

Re me, if lunching me loses the game for the village then don't do it. If we can survive my death then go for it. I can't see me having the time to be helpful. Although I'd say my take on luco was pretty dam good and nearly ajways accurate.

As someone who has wolfed with me rong - can you REALLY see me post this much volume as a wolf? Piss off

[Luco]

every post makes me switch back n forth between luco n rong

the hard evidence makes me want to vote for rong. these are just the general wolfy traits that wuf alluded to. "ill post alot of stuff later guys!" is such a typical wolfy cop out. if jkds believes the luco-wolf theory is possible then rong could somehow be a wolf too. jkds doesnt convince me rong is safe.

jkds does a pretty good job of making luco look bad. luco also is doing that thing i called out gator for doing last game. the thing is when a wolf casts his own thoughts and theories onto someone else. luco wants to hang me because the only villagery thing ive done is vote for ong. well shit the only villagery thing hes done is vote for ong! and hes wrong about me

i needed to get these thoughts out of the way before i reread again

You read me better than most gabe so the fact that you don't see my D3 effort as villagery is straight up alarming

And I don't want to hang you, I want to figure you out.

[Luco]

what do you guys think of the present vote counts? the wagon sizes wouldnt make you think rong is the wolf

Say for arguments sake that rong is a wolf. He has ONE buddy to defend. What would you expect to see here?

[Luco]

Rong, remember the game where rilla was the last wolf but I thought it was you? I pressed you hard and in ONE POST you said something so villagery that it blew my whole theory on you to pieces. I know you're short on time blah blah but if you're V then why aren't you talking? I don't recall you giving your thoughts on anyone today really, except me.

[rong]

Given that it seems a mislynch coujd win it for the wolves I can see them going for the win from the off. The wolves would typically pay lots of attention to how close they are to a win. They alone also know how likely any of them is to be lynched or sk'd.

Given that I'd expect them to put in a lot if effort to save one of them of they think they can.

[rong]

I thought wuf seemed wolfy, he got cleared pretty much by the Loki post.

Actually, what am I saying. How can Loki clear anyone. Wtf is up with that. Are we to assume that Loki chose to day wuf is a villager?

If so, is that to get the wolves to kill him? Knowing if they don't he's a wolf?


I dunno, I've not paid enough attention.

Could a wuf luco team make sense?

[Luco]

Given that it seems a mislynch coujd win it for the wolves I can see them going for the win from the off. The wolves would typically pay lots of attention to how close they are to a win. They alone also know how likely any of them is to be lynched or sk'd.

Given that I'd expect them to put in a lot if effort to save one of them of they think they can.

This doesn't mesh with your thinking that I'm a wolf, given that some EoD silence from me would have saved ong (boog vote notwithstanding, but he hadn't switched at that point)