FTR Chat Question of the Day #2: To C-Bet Or Not To C-Bet?

[eugmac]

Spoon, is this related to this spectrum you posted in IRC the other day?

<--check/raise--|--bet/call--|--bet/fold--|--check/call--|--check/fold--|--bet/fold-->

Where it represents our entire range from strongest to weakest from left to right? I'm going to follow this up with a potential UTG range and try breaking it down in that sort of fashion and see where the two hands in question ITT fit in.

[27 Apr 13 16:18] * spoonitnow * and you're on the river
[27 Apr 13 16:18] * spoonitnow * your range will look like this
[27 Apr 13 16:19] * spoonitnow * assuming you're oop
[27 Apr 13 16:19] * spoonitnow * <--check/raise--|--bet/call--|--bet/fold--|--check/call--|--check/fold--|--bet/fold-->
[27 Apr 13 16:19] * spoonitnow * best hands on the left
[27 Apr 13 16:19] * spoonitnow * your range might not have all of those parts
[27 Apr 13 16:20] * spoonitnow * just depending on how you're playing
[27 Apr 13 16:20] * spoonitnow * but that's the general layout
[27 Apr 13 16:20] * eug * bet/folding as a bluff is the last one?
[27 Apr 13 16:20] * spoonitnow * yes
[27 Apr 13 16:20] * eug * where's the c/R shove as a bluff?
[27 Apr 13 16:21] * eug * get him to fold 2nd nuts
[27 Apr 13 16:21] * spoonitnow * yeah i forgot that part, doing too much at one time sorry
[27 Apr 13 16:22] * spoonitnow * <--check/raise--|--bet/call--|--bet/fold--|--check/call--|--check/fold--|--check/raise--|--bet/fold-->
[27 Apr 13 16:22] * spoonitnow * you can prove the order with game theory

[spoonitnow]

Spoon, is this related to this spectrum you posted in IRC the other day?

<--check/raise--|--bet/call--|--bet/fold--|--check/call--|--check/fold--|--bet/fold-->

Where it represents our entire range from strongest to weakest from left to right? I'm going to follow this up with a potential UTG range and try breaking it down in that sort of fashion and see where the two hands in question ITT fit in.

Look at the very first line of what you quoted.

Also, the whole point of the ABCD thing is to get you to start thinking about how you arrange your ranges. However, it's not something that you should hold onto as a specific way to do it in every situation that comes up.

I think just looking at equities here won't help solve the problem.

Some people will play very straight forward here. Some players will bet their entire range once checked to but shutdown once you c/c. Ofcourse in this spot it's a pretty easy c/c with KK.

Some players will bet their entire range, and barrel us often. We're then in a much more difficult spot, knowing we'll face multiple bets.

Some ppl will be suspicious about a check on Axx flop,and will check back. This could be ok, we may get to showdown cheap and maybe get one street of value on the river.

tldr: Decision to bet or check is impacted by both their calling range if we bet, and their betting range if we check (and how well we can play vs their tendencies)

The bold is dead-on what made me post this. Had a few discussions back to back about c-betting spots in IRC where people weren't considering how the opponent would play if we checked vs. if we bet.

[seven-deuce]

Thought this hand was quite relevant to the discussion in this thread and in the BC over the past few days.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

SB ($17.94)
BB ($2.46)
UTG ($5.14)
Hero (MP) ($8.52)
CO ($5)
Button ($1.38)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.15, 1 fold, Button calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.37) 5, A, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.67) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45

River: ($1.57) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Total pot: $2.77 | Rake: $0.11


Villain was running - 41/21/100/3.2 (vpip/pfr/cbet/3bet)

Thoughts?

[griffey24]

Thought this hand was quite relevant to the discussion in this thread and in the BC over the past few days.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

SB ($17.94)
BB ($2.46)
UTG ($5.14)
Hero (MP) ($8.52)
CO ($5)
Button ($1.38)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.15, 1 fold, Button calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.37) 5, A, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.67) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45

River: ($1.57) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Total pot: $2.77 | Rake: $0.11


Villain was running - 41/21/100/3.2 (vpip/pfr/cbet/3bet)

Thoughts?

Going into c/c mode vs a player playing 41/21 doesn't seem optimal to me.

All things being equal I would assume a player with these stats is not going to be very bluffy and more on the passive side.

I would triple barrel this hand. Maybe check the river when clubs brick.

What's with all the AT talk in this thread anyway? AT is so strong vs these loose players. It's not like they are folding any ace. They might 3b AK pre. So we lose to AJ/AQ, but beat every other ace.

As played it's an easy river c/c getting those odds.

[spoonitnow]

Thought this hand was quite relevant to the discussion in this thread and in the BC over the past few days.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

SB ($17.94)
BB ($2.46)
UTG ($5.14)
Hero (MP) ($8.52)
CO ($5)
Button ($1.38)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.15, 1 fold, Button calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.37) 5, A, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.67) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45

River: ($1.57) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Total pot: $2.77 | Rake: $0.11


Villain was running - 41/21/100/3.2 (vpip/pfr/cbet/3bet)

Thoughts?

When you posted that hand earlier, you didn't say he was that goddamn loose.

[eugmac]

Thought this hand was quite relevant to the discussion in this thread and in the BC over the past few days.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

SB ($17.94)
BB ($2.46)
UTG ($5.14)
Hero (MP) ($8.52)
CO ($5)
Button ($1.38)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.15, 1 fold, Button calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.37) 5, A, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.67) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45

River: ($1.57) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Total pot: $2.77 | Rake: $0.11


Villain was running - 41/21/100/3.2 (vpip/pfr/cbet/3bet)

Thoughts?

So far, I've given villian a fricken huge BU CCing range of {JJ-22,AQs-A2s,K7s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,65s,54s,43s ,32s,AQo-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,97o+,87o,76o,65o} and that breaks down as follows if I haven't miscounted, which seems unlikely knowing how my day has been going so far.

Boats/quads: 5 combos
Trips: 12 combos
Flush draws: 22 combos (2 are SFD)
Top pair: 78 combos
Mid Pairs above 55: 33 combos
Underpairs: 18 combos
Air: 202 combos

I'm tired from counting and eating lasagna, so that's all for today.
edit: filthy miscount. i cheated and used equilab to fix. Also the countup of air in equilab also includes flush draws, which took me a while to figure out.