FTR Chat Question of the Day #2: To C-Bet Or Not To C-Bet?

With 100bb stacks at 25nl, we open to 4x from UTG in a 6-handed game. A 26/22 player after 60 hands calls on the button, and we have no other real information about the guy. The flop pot is $2.35, and it comes A J 6 . Do you c-bet if you hold A T ? K K ?

Tell me if I'm on the right track - with AT, is this strong enough to expect to get value from worse hands?

What I'm wondering is, is KK a bad enough a hand to turn into a bluff? I mean I if we check, it's a c/f here and not a c/c?

edit: so if AT isn't getting called by worse here, that means he's folding stuff like A9s, which makes bluffing with KK pretty neat?

If villain calls with this range pre-flop;
{ TT-22,AQs-A2s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,AQo-ATo,KTo+,QTo+,JTo }

and calls a bet on the flop with;

{ 6d6h,6d6s,6h6s,AQs-A9s,KJs,QJs,JTs,AQo-ATo,KJo,QJo,JTo }

then AT has 61% equity

and KK has 42% equity

So bet AT and check KK?

Since we have no reads just make all our 50% +EV value bets until we spot a tendency we can exploit?

Although i'm thinking ATs is probably going to be the worst Ax we open UTG so betting it will leave our checking range very weak, unless we check some of our stronger hands.

Also the flop is fairly dry their's a few gutshots in his range but he'll most likely be calling with a pair.

My range UTG would be something like

ATs+, AJo+, KQs, 66+. Which is 110 hands, ~8%


As the majority of my range is Aces, I'd be checking the ATs, because I get some showdown value against the weaker hands in his range which I want to keep in to try and extract value from on later streets, so I don't mind checking.

Whereas most of my value with KK will now come from me getting him to fold out the weaker parts of his range which has me beat but is hard to continue with against a cbet.

Originally Posted by ImSavy

My range UTG would be something like

ATs+, AJo+, KQs, 66+. Which is 110 hands, ~8%


As the majority of my range is Aces, I'd be checking the ATs, because I get some showdown value against the weaker hands in his range which I want to keep in to try and extract value from on later streets, so I don't mind checking.

Whereas most of my value with KK will now come from me getting him to fold out the weaker parts of his range which has me beat but is hard to continue with against a cbet.

Yeah, this is the articulate version of what I was rambling about above, so +1.

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

If villain calls with this range pre-flop;
{ TT-22,AQs-A2s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,AQo-ATo,KTo+,QTo+,JTo }

and calls a bet on the flop with;

{ 6d6h,6d6s,6h6s,AQs-A9s,KJs,QJs,JTs,AQo-ATo,KJo,QJo,JTo }

then AT has 61% equity

and KK has 42% equity

So bet AT and check KK?

Since we have no reads just make all our 50% +EV value bets until we spot a tendency we can exploit?

Although i'm thinking ATs is probably going to be the worst Ax we open UTG so betting it will leave our checking range very weak, unless we check some of our stronger hands.

Also the flop is fairly dry their's a few gutshots in his range but he'll most likely be calling with a pair.

[13:53] <spoonitnow> seven-deuce suggested that AT has about 61 percent equity against villain's calling range
[13:53] <eug> surely on that board smaller would do fine
[13:53] <ImSavy> i had 67o btw
[13:53] <ImSavy> was juts seeing how loose you are
[13:53] <spoonitnow> but he didn't mention if we'd be able to keep betting on future streets
[13:54] <spoonitnow> if we check, we can possibly get a bet from other hands in his range, and if we don't, then we can just bet the next street to get called by a similar range that would call on the flop
[13:54] <spoonitnow> what do you guys think

Originally Posted by ImSavy

Whereas most of my value with KK will now come from me getting him to fold out the weaker parts of his range which has me beat but is hard to continue with against a cbet.

[13:55] <spoonitnow> he's not folding any hand that beats you here
[13:55] <spoonitnow> not for 1 bet
[13:56] <spoonitnow> plus you have much better hands to bluff with

Originally Posted by ImSavy

My range UTG would be something like

ATs+, AJo+, KQs, 66+. Which is 110 hands, ~8%


As the majority of my range is Aces, I'd be checking the ATs, because I get some showdown value against the weaker hands in his range which I want to keep in to try and extract value from on later streets, so I don't mind checking.

Whereas most of my value with KK will now come from me getting him to fold out the weaker parts of his range which has me beat but is hard to continue with against a cbet.

too tight in any game

Spoon, is this related to this spectrum you posted in IRC the other day?

<--check/raise--|--bet/call--|--bet/fold--|--check/call--|--check/fold--|--bet/fold-->

Where it represents our entire range from strongest to weakest from left to right? I'm going to follow this up with a potential UTG range and try breaking it down in that sort of fashion and see where the two hands in question ITT fit in.

[27 Apr 13 16:18] * spoonitnow * and you're on the river
[27 Apr 13 16:18] * spoonitnow * your range will look like this
[27 Apr 13 16:19] * spoonitnow * assuming you're oop
[27 Apr 13 16:19] * spoonitnow * <--check/raise--|--bet/call--|--bet/fold--|--check/call--|--check/fold--|--bet/fold-->
[27 Apr 13 16:19] * spoonitnow * best hands on the left
[27 Apr 13 16:19] * spoonitnow * your range might not have all of those parts
[27 Apr 13 16:20] * spoonitnow * just depending on how you're playing
[27 Apr 13 16:20] * spoonitnow * but that's the general layout
[27 Apr 13 16:20] * eug * bet/folding as a bluff is the last one?
[27 Apr 13 16:20] * spoonitnow * yes
[27 Apr 13 16:20] * eug * where's the c/R shove as a bluff?
[27 Apr 13 16:21] * eug * get him to fold 2nd nuts
[27 Apr 13 16:21] * spoonitnow * yeah i forgot that part, doing too much at one time sorry
[27 Apr 13 16:22] * spoonitnow * <--check/raise--|--bet/call--|--bet/fold--|--check/call--|--check/fold--|--check/raise--|--bet/fold-->
[27 Apr 13 16:22] * spoonitnow * you can prove the order with game theory

I realize that you were talking about situation where there's only one more bet left, so if we bet, he can only raise all-in. Clearly there's a lot more money behind here, but I suppose the same principles apply.

Let's say for the sake of argument that we're playing my 5 NL 6m UTG range here for better or for worse of {77+,A9s+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,AJo+,KQo}. sidenote: thoughts on whether this is too loose or whatever for 5 NL are welcome, m2m?

on a flop of



Using ABCD, we break it down into say

A: AA,JJ,AJ [10 combos]
B: AK,AQ [24 combos]
C: ATs,A9s,KK,QQ,KJs,QJs,JTs [27 combos]
D: 77-TT,KQ,T9s [44 combos]

Now it becomes a question of what lines are best with which parts of our range. We mentioned earlier in IRC how AA might check because we have the deck crippled. Would it be safe to say though that we want to take the most aggressive line with the nuts that we can get away with? Obviously we can't have a flop c/r range of just the nuts, so we start balancing the c/r range with stuff like KQs?

I just backspaced away a lot of text where I'm trying to fit those potential lines like c/r, b/call,b/f etc because it gave me a big headache.

Since we're betting or checking here, would it make sense to split up that range above into BET or CHECK and try to balance each range?

I think just looking at equities here won't help solve the problem.

Some people will play very straight forward here. Some players will bet their entire range once checked to but shutdown once you c/c. Ofcourse in this spot it's a pretty easy c/c with KK.

Some players will bet their entire range, and barrel us often. We're then in a much more difficult spot, knowing we'll face multiple bets.

Some ppl will be suspicious about a check on Axx flop,and will check back. This could be ok, we may get to showdown cheap and maybe get one street of value on the river.

tldr: Decision to bet or check is impacted by both their calling range if we bet, and their betting range if we check (and how well we can play vs their tendencies)

Spoon made an extra point about us not really having any other information to go on apart from his running 26/22 after a few hands, so I dunno what to do now.

Originally Posted by eugmac

Spoon, is this related to this spectrum you posted in IRC the other day?

<--check/raise--|--bet/call--|--bet/fold--|--check/call--|--check/fold--|--bet/fold-->

Where it represents our entire range from strongest to weakest from left to right? I'm going to follow this up with a potential UTG range and try breaking it down in that sort of fashion and see where the two hands in question ITT fit in.

Look at the very first line of what you quoted.

Also, the whole point of the ABCD thing is to get you to start thinking about how you arrange your ranges. However, it's not something that you should hold onto as a specific way to do it in every situation that comes up.

Originally Posted by griffey24

I think just looking at equities here won't help solve the problem.

Some people will play very straight forward here. Some players will bet their entire range once checked to but shutdown once you c/c. Ofcourse in this spot it's a pretty easy c/c with KK.

Some players will bet their entire range, and barrel us often. We're then in a much more difficult spot, knowing we'll face multiple bets.

Some ppl will be suspicious about a check on Axx flop,and will check back. This could be ok, we may get to showdown cheap and maybe get one street of value on the river.

tldr: Decision to bet or check is impacted by both their calling range if we bet, and their betting range if we check (and how well we can play vs their tendencies)

The bold is dead-on what made me post this. Had a few discussions back to back about c-betting spots in IRC where people weren't considering how the opponent would play if we checked vs. if we bet.

Thought this hand was quite relevant to the discussion in this thread and in the BC over the past few days.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

SB ($17.94)
BB ($2.46)
UTG ($5.14)
Hero (MP) ($8.52)
CO ($5)
Button ($1.38)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.15, 1 fold, Button calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.37) 5, A, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.67) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45

River: ($1.57) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Total pot: $2.77 | Rake: $0.11


Villain was running - 41/21/100/3.2 (vpip/pfr/cbet/3bet)

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

Thought this hand was quite relevant to the discussion in this thread and in the BC over the past few days.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

SB ($17.94)
BB ($2.46)
UTG ($5.14)
Hero (MP) ($8.52)
CO ($5)
Button ($1.38)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.15, 1 fold, Button calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.37) 5, A, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.67) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45

River: ($1.57) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Total pot: $2.77 | Rake: $0.11


Villain was running - 41/21/100/3.2 (vpip/pfr/cbet/3bet)

Thoughts?

Going into c/c mode vs a player playing 41/21 doesn't seem optimal to me.

All things being equal I would assume a player with these stats is not going to be very bluffy and more on the passive side.

I would triple barrel this hand. Maybe check the river when clubs brick.

What's with all the AT talk in this thread anyway? AT is so strong vs these loose players. It's not like they are folding any ace. They might 3b AK pre. So we lose to AJ/AQ, but beat every other ace.

As played it's an easy river c/c getting those odds.

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

Thought this hand was quite relevant to the discussion in this thread and in the BC over the past few days.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

SB ($17.94)
BB ($2.46)
UTG ($5.14)
Hero (MP) ($8.52)
CO ($5)
Button ($1.38)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.15, 1 fold, Button calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.37) 5, A, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.67) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45

River: ($1.57) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Total pot: $2.77 | Rake: $0.11


Villain was running - 41/21/100/3.2 (vpip/pfr/cbet/3bet)

Thoughts?

When you posted that hand earlier, you didn't say he was that goddamn loose.

So basically, against loosey passivey types, with strongish hands that aren't in out value bet range against tighter villains, we can cb the drawy boards for 2 streets and possibly call a bet on the river (assuming oop) as we check the river to potentially induce a bluff where as on the non drawy boards against the same villain we are better to use the same hand for c/c as worse made hands can bet that won't call.

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

Thought this hand was quite relevant to the discussion in this thread and in the BC over the past few days.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

SB ($17.94)
BB ($2.46)
UTG ($5.14)
Hero (MP) ($8.52)
CO ($5)
Button ($1.38)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.15, 1 fold, Button calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.37) 5, A, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.67) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45

River: ($1.57) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Total pot: $2.77 | Rake: $0.11


Villain was running - 41/21/100/3.2 (vpip/pfr/cbet/3bet)

Thoughts?

So far, I've given villian a fricken huge BU CCing range of {JJ-22,AQs-A2s,K7s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,65s,54s,43s ,32s,AQo-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,97o+,87o,76o,65o} and that breaks down as follows if I haven't miscounted, which seems unlikely knowing how my day has been going so far.

Boats/quads: 5 combos
Trips: 12 combos
Flush draws: 22 combos (2 are SFD)
Top pair: 78 combos
Mid Pairs above 55: 33 combos
Underpairs: 18 combos
Air: 202 combos

I'm tired from counting and eating lasagna, so that's all for today.
edit: filthy miscount. i cheated and used equilab to fix. Also the countup of air in equilab also includes flush draws, which took me a while to figure out.

What if I want to cbet AT some and check some.

WHERE THE POLL OPTION FOR THAT EHHHH