58s multiway

[Shotglass]

You have a horrible preflop strategy which is getting you into a bunch of problems post flop.

I've read a few of your threads and in more than just this thread you're playing multi-gapped suited cards. This strategy might work when you small ball in a large b&m tourney but not in an online cash game. The only thing that those two pretty cards will do is drain your bankroll.

Learn how to play better preflop, which will lead to less bad decisions postflop.

[eugmac]

You have a horrible preflop strategy which is getting you into a bunch of problems post flop.

I've read a few of your threads and in more than just this thread you're playing multi-gapped suited cards. This strategy might work when you small ball in a large b&m tourney but not in an online cash game. The only thing that those two pretty cards will do is drain your bankroll.

Learn how to play better preflop, which will lead to less bad decisions postflop.

Typical live tourneys I've seen have never had stacks deep enough that can possibly turn 85s into a playable hand. Often you're down to push/shove poker by the first break. Of course there will be places to shove 85s in a tourney but I'm pretty sure this isn't what you meant by small-ball poker. What kind of live tourneys are you talking about?

[Zorkion]

well...i get the idea that hands like 58s are pretty shit to play in spots like this, and im going to be generally be pushing that play out of game. That said though, are there any good resources/articles for analytically deciding how we determine our preflop opening/calling ranges? I mean, Ive seen the whole 'generally, aj+, 88+ from utg, a bit more in mp, and a lot more in lp' idea, but my question is more what is the math behind designing these ranges on a hand by hand basis?

[rpm]

I mean, Ive seen the whole 'generally, aj+, 88+ from utg, a bit more in mp, and a lot more in lp' idea, but my question is more what is the math behind designing these ranges on a hand by hand basis?

i think this kind of knowledge is more about so-called "feel" than maths, and is derived mostly from coming to understand how positional advantage, equity advantage, skill advantage, and initiative influence EV in preflop decisions. and also whether/how our preflop play works for our overall strategy.

[Razvan729]

i think this kind of knowledge is more about so-called "feel" than maths, and is derived mostly from coming to understand how positional advantage, equity advantage, skill advantage, and initiative influence EV in preflop decisions. and also whether/how our preflop play works for our overall strategy.

so true, so true... but until one develops the adequate postflop skills and the knowledge of diferrent poker concepts, the skill to read the table and to asign accurate ranges and all other skills needed to play 56s in UTG and/ or call gapped SC in MP vs EP opening, the math for preflop strategy is easy ( as i can see it ):

the more people are behind you that will act ,the greater chances they have a better hand then you and the greater chances you will get a 3bet and the greater chances are you will see a flop OOP that many times you will mis. so w/o the skills rpm said and w/o experience and a good postflop skill the more chances you have to spew.thats why preflop strategy for begginers says play 77+, AQ+ in EP ,add some more in MP and play a lot more in LP.

[Nekrogovner]

well...i get the idea that hands like 58s are pretty shit to play in spots like this, and im going to be generally be pushing that play out of game. That said though, are there any good resources/articles for analytically deciding how we determine our preflop opening/calling ranges? I mean, Ive seen the whole 'generally, aj+, 88+ from utg, a bit more in mp, and a lot more in lp' idea, but my question is more what is the math behind designing these ranges on a hand by hand basis?

Hmmm, I actually find it hard to believe that you never read any resources on preflop play. Therefore I dare to deduce that you actually haven't read any books on poker at all. Because, virtually in every book (or articles for beginners), there is CHAPTER 1: Preflop play. And it usually has charts on opening and calling ranges, something that could be memorised to get you out of trouble while you develop your game.
Get a book.

[Zorkion]

Hmmm, I actually find it hard to believe that you never read any resources on preflop play. Therefore I dare to deduce that you actually haven't read any books on poker at all. Because, virtually in every book (or articles for beginners), there is CHAPTER 1: Preflop play. And it usually has charts on opening and calling ranges, something that could be memorised to get you out of trouble while you develop your game.
Get a book.

you sir, are a poo face.

i HAVE read books, and i HAVE read articles on preflop play. the thing is just that im not interested so much in memorizing some silly chart of what hands to play in different positions as much as i am interested in the reasoning that led to that conclusion. Thus, insofar as poker is a mathematical game, I am especially interested in the mathematically based foundations for these decisions


I HAVE MULTIPLE CENTIPEDES IN MY VAGINA


..er, books i mean. really. on my bookshelf.

[Nekrogovner]

you sir, are a poo face.

i HAVE read books, and i HAVE read articles on preflop play. the thing is just that im not interested so much in memorizing some silly chart of what hands to play in different positions as much as i am interested in the reasoning that led to that conclusion. Thus, insofar as poker is a mathematical game, I am especially interested in the mathematically based foundations for these decisions


I HAVE MULTIPLE CENTIPEDES IN MY VAGINA


..er, books i mean. really. on my bookshelf.

Poo face I may be, but still, silly charts are there for a reason, and that is, to make preflop decisions easy until you learn reasoning behind your actions.

Let me ask you a question.
Do you always call 58s vs an utg opener?
No? Why not? Is there a reasoning behind it or you simply have an inconsistent preflop strategy?
What is your VPIP? Do you know that VPIP of person who calls pre with 58s or better is around 55%? Is your VPIP that high?

[celtic123]

Let me ask you a question.
Do you always call 58s vs an utg opener?
No? Why not? Is there a reasoning behind it or you simply have an inconsistent preflop strategy?
What is your VPIP? Do you know that VPIP of person who calls pre with 58s or better is around 55%? Is your VPIP that high?

I like where this is going. And its all good.

[eugmac]

What is your VPIP? Do you know that VPIP of person who calls pre with 58s or better is around 55%? Is your VPIP that high?

Some very rough assumptions being made that the PokerStove slider % which includes 85s = hero's entire range. More likely that hero here gets excited with "implied odds" when he sees an UTG raiser (omg he has AA and will stack off every time I hit!) and a pretty suited hand, and had just had grossly overestimated the implied odds he actually has. Who of us here hasn't overestimated their implied odds at some point or another? Also situations like calling a BU steal in the BB with 55 and being surprised when you hardly ever win his stack when you hit a set.

[Socristotle]

well...i get the idea that hands like 58s are pretty shit to play in spots like this, and im going to be generally be pushing that play out of game. That said though, are there any good resources/articles for analytically deciding how we determine our preflop opening/calling ranges? I mean, Ive seen the whole 'generally, aj+, 88+ from utg, a bit more in mp, and a lot more in lp' idea, but my question is more what is the math behind designing these ranges on a hand by hand basis?

I wouldn't worry so much about analytically deciding anything at this point in your game. Just humble yourself a little, get a preflop chart and play a shit ton of hands; say 20k+. By then you should start to get a feel for game flow and why 68s ep is so fucking horrible. There is nothing to analyze. Just start playing more hands based on whats proven to work and it'll keep you out of trouble until you get better.