58s multiway

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (8 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($1.46)
MP1 ($4.12)
Hero (MP2) ($4)
CO ($1.80)
Button ($4.16)
SB ($2.24)
BB ($3.92)
UTG ($4.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 5, 8
UTG bets $0.14, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.14, CO calls $0.14, 1 fold, SB calls $0.12, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.70) 7, 2, 4 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.60, 1 fold, SB raises to $2.10 (All-In), 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50


this was 10 hands into table, no reads on opp yet, besides that hes running 25/0

i know calling preflop is kinda questionable, but i dont think its a huge deal (please correct me if im wrong) any thoughts on the line i took? given my psb, i had to call the shove (1.5 into 1.26 with just short of coinflip odds vs sets+overpairs)

Fold pre. Wouldn't mind as much if you were on the btn, but it'd still probably be a fold. I don't think we can fold w/ the equity we have in this spot.

I just know the 6 dropped, didn't it....

Originally Posted by Zorkion

i know calling preflop is kinda questionable, but i dont think its a huge deal (please correct me if im wrong)

it's not kinda questionable, it's fucking atrocious to call pre there. obv when you get this flop go with it but there's many better hands you should be folding pre to an UTG opener when yer MP.

Originally Posted by celtic123

I just know the 6 dropped, didn't it....

no.

Originally Posted by d0zer

it's not kinda questionable, it's fucking atrocious to call pre there. obv when you get this flop go with it but there's many better hands you should be folding pre to an UTG opener when yer MP.

for fear of sounding too fishy, why exactly is this such a bad decision? we dont really suffer bad reverse implied odds, we hit mid range boards pretty well, and occasionally the hand goes multiway, which is just fine with this kind of hand also. i get that given were in mp, theres a larger chance someone from lp/blinds will squeeze and force us out of the pot, but it seems to me that with most people at this stake being cbet donks, we can apply isf theorem and take away extra bets from them, in position, when we like the flop. (i probably bluff too much)


how would you feel about 68s or 78s in this same spot? or the above hands in lp, say on co

Everything is wrong with playing this hand preflop.

You have what looks to be a fairly passive player opening UTG; in all seriousness AQs is probably a fold in this spot.

Two-gappers don't really flop that well compared to many other speculative hands.
Calling with 22 will be infinitely better than this hand because you can pretty much fit or fold and you have a nut-like hand anytime you hit.

The problem with your hand is that you will flop a decent chunk of equity often enough that you burn off your stack chasing and don't have any fold equity when UTG bets the flop.

In general, set mine with small pairs vs. strong ranges and float/semibluff with s00ted connectors/gappers vs. wide ranges.

What if you shitty flush hits and one of your opponents plays back at you?. I think you are just digging yourself a hole with a hand like this. U bluff the flop and if it doesn't hit you're fcked, if it does hit you're still fucked. ...imo

fold preflop

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

fold preflop

+1 for sure.

flop is fine as played.

pre is really bad

Originally Posted by Zorkion

i know calling preflop is kinda questionable, but i dont think its a huge deal (please correct me if im wrong) any thoughts on the line i took? given my psb, i had to call the shove (1.5 into 1.26 with just short of coinflip odds vs sets+overpairs)

mistake 1) pre is ...hmm.. i have no words... this aint fishy, just dumb, dont wanna be mean with you, but the preflop call is dumb. all the others said it and believe them , is really bad

mistake 2) you are not calling 1.5 into 1.26 , you are callin 1.5 into a 3.4 pot. so this is another reason why you should fold pre, cause you have no ideea to calculate pot odds/ implied odds

mistake 3)you are not vs sets+ oevrpairs, your range is awfull here, most overpairs will 3bet pre for sure, QQ+ and 88-JJ will c/c , b/f , b/c 90% of times.
SB range here is mostly sets,56s, and better FD than yours and sometimes ,but not often enough, TT,JJ.

if i were you i'd get back to studying theory again and try to improve my range assigning before i ever play again 58s in MP calling EP opening.


this is the math you should make on this flop.

bet to call: 1.5

pot: 0,70 from preflop+ 0,6 your bet +2.1 SB shoving= 3.4$

math ecuation to find out pot odds for all ins: (bet to call)/( bet to call+ total pot), so we have 1.5/4.9=0,30 so we need at least 30% equity vs his range to call here, if our equity is lower, then fold.

stove your hand vs this 77,44,22, Axcc,KQcc,KJcc,KTcc,K9cc,QJcc,QTcc,Q9cc,JTcc,J9cc, 9Tcc,TT,JJ,56s and for the sake of argument throw in 88,99. the resukt will be 40% equity and because we just need 30% it's a call.

so on flop, like all said is ok the line, but this doesnt excuse that you played the hand totally wrong preflop and by what you said ( see the quote up) this would be wrong play postflop cause your math doesnt give any reason to call. ( math wrong, range off)

i hope you wont be upset on me, but admit that you suck is the first step into becoming a better player and improve your game.
study better and try to really understand the concepts of poker cause is damn sure you fcked them up in your head.

Originally Posted by Razvan729

mistake 2) you are not calling 1.5 into 1.26 , you are callin 1.5 into a 3.4 pot.

yeah, thats what i meant :/

Originally Posted by Razvan729

i hope you wont be upset on me, but admit that you suck is the first step into becoming a better player and improve your game.
study better and try to really understand the concepts of poker cause is damn sure you fcked them up in your head.

oh dont worry, i admitted that i suck a looong time ago xD


Thanks for your well-written post. I know I oversimplified the sb range.

Let me explain professionally.
Get a deck of cards. Real or virtual one, whatever turns you on.

Now put 58s in your hand. And imagine that there is a standard imaginary UTG villain who's preflop raising range is 88+, AK, AQ. Now shuffle your deck few dozen times and put some flops on the table, lets say...make 100 flops. Now get a cat. Every time you hit the flop that suits you (flush draw, flush, straight draw (no gutshots), straight, twopair, trips, FH) stab a cat. Everytime flop sucks stab yourself.
After 100 flops count the stabwounds on yourself and the cat. Whoever has less has won more money.

i did this and it worked out great for me i only lost a kidney

Go for it, you have a blocker.

You have a horrible preflop strategy which is getting you into a bunch of problems post flop.

I've read a few of your threads and in more than just this thread you're playing multi-gapped suited cards. This strategy might work when you small ball in a large b&m tourney but not in an online cash game. The only thing that those two pretty cards will do is drain your bankroll.

Learn how to play better preflop, which will lead to less bad decisions postflop.

Originally Posted by kickass

i did this and it worked out great for me i only lost a kidney

Kidney price varies around the world from 1000$ to 20 000$. Do you see now how bad is it to play 58s preflop?

Originally Posted by Shotglass

You have a horrible preflop strategy which is getting you into a bunch of problems post flop.

I've read a few of your threads and in more than just this thread you're playing multi-gapped suited cards. This strategy might work when you small ball in a large b&m tourney but not in an online cash game. The only thing that those two pretty cards will do is drain your bankroll.

Learn how to play better preflop, which will lead to less bad decisions postflop.

Typical live tourneys I've seen have never had stacks deep enough that can possibly turn 85s into a playable hand. Often you're down to push/shove poker by the first break. Of course there will be places to shove 85s in a tourney but I'm pretty sure this isn't what you meant by small-ball poker. What kind of live tourneys are you talking about?

well...i get the idea that hands like 58s are pretty shit to play in spots like this, and im going to be generally be pushing that play out of game. That said though, are there any good resources/articles for analytically deciding how we determine our preflop opening/calling ranges? I mean, Ive seen the whole 'generally, aj+, 88+ from utg, a bit more in mp, and a lot more in lp' idea, but my question is more what is the math behind designing these ranges on a hand by hand basis?

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...re-123008.html

you will find here all the info you need. read the articles about preflop play and if need aditional info or explaining start a new thread and ask.

Originally Posted by Zorkion

I mean, Ive seen the whole 'generally, aj+, 88+ from utg, a bit more in mp, and a lot more in lp' idea, but my question is more what is the math behind designing these ranges on a hand by hand basis?

i think this kind of knowledge is more about so-called "feel" than maths, and is derived mostly from coming to understand how positional advantage, equity advantage, skill advantage, and initiative influence EV in preflop decisions. and also whether/how our preflop play works for our overall strategy.

Originally Posted by rpm

i think this kind of knowledge is more about so-called "feel" than maths, and is derived mostly from coming to understand how positional advantage, equity advantage, skill advantage, and initiative influence EV in preflop decisions. and also whether/how our preflop play works for our overall strategy.

so true, so true... but until one develops the adequate postflop skills and the knowledge of diferrent poker concepts, the skill to read the table and to asign accurate ranges and all other skills needed to play 56s in UTG and/ or call gapped SC in MP vs EP opening, the math for preflop strategy is easy ( as i can see it ):

the more people are behind you that will act ,the greater chances they have a better hand then you and the greater chances you will get a 3bet and the greater chances are you will see a flop OOP that many times you will mis. so w/o the skills rpm said and w/o experience and a good postflop skill the more chances you have to spew.thats why preflop strategy for begginers says play 77+, AQ+ in EP ,add some more in MP and play a lot more in LP.

Originally Posted by Zorkion

well...i get the idea that hands like 58s are pretty shit to play in spots like this, and im going to be generally be pushing that play out of game. That said though, are there any good resources/articles for analytically deciding how we determine our preflop opening/calling ranges? I mean, Ive seen the whole 'generally, aj+, 88+ from utg, a bit more in mp, and a lot more in lp' idea, but my question is more what is the math behind designing these ranges on a hand by hand basis?

Hmmm, I actually find it hard to believe that you never read any resources on preflop play. Therefore I dare to deduce that you actually haven't read any books on poker at all. Because, virtually in every book (or articles for beginners), there is CHAPTER 1: Preflop play. And it usually has charts on opening and calling ranges, something that could be memorised to get you out of trouble while you develop your game.
Get a book.

Originally Posted by Nekrogovner

Hmmm, I actually find it hard to believe that you never read any resources on preflop play. Therefore I dare to deduce that you actually haven't read any books on poker at all. Because, virtually in every book (or articles for beginners), there is CHAPTER 1: Preflop play. And it usually has charts on opening and calling ranges, something that could be memorised to get you out of trouble while you develop your game.
Get a book.

you sir, are a poo face.

i HAVE read books, and i HAVE read articles on preflop play. the thing is just that im not interested so much in memorizing some silly chart of what hands to play in different positions as much as i am interested in the reasoning that led to that conclusion. Thus, insofar as poker is a mathematical game, I am especially interested in the mathematically based foundations for these decisions


I HAVE MULTIPLE CENTIPEDES IN MY VAGINA


..er, books i mean. really. on my bookshelf.

well then put simply mathematically 85s doesn't flop a strong hand often enough to have implied odds to call profitably. for this matter, 98s is also a fold in the MP1 when we're the first caller - we can end up OOP or be faced with a 3bet squeeze that we have to fold to. it's different if there are already bunches of callers, and even moreso if we have postflop position.

Originally Posted by Zorkion

you sir, are a poo face.

i HAVE read books, and i HAVE read articles on preflop play. the thing is just that im not interested so much in memorizing some silly chart of what hands to play in different positions as much as i am interested in the reasoning that led to that conclusion. Thus, insofar as poker is a mathematical game, I am especially interested in the mathematically based foundations for these decisions


I HAVE MULTIPLE CENTIPEDES IN MY VAGINA


..er, books i mean. really. on my bookshelf.

Poo face I may be, but still, silly charts are there for a reason, and that is, to make preflop decisions easy until you learn reasoning behind your actions.

Let me ask you a question.
Do you always call 58s vs an utg opener?
No? Why not? Is there a reasoning behind it or you simply have an inconsistent preflop strategy?
What is your VPIP? Do you know that VPIP of person who calls pre with 58s or better is around 55%? Is your VPIP that high?

I would fold this preflop for sure. As played on the flop, it looks fine.

Originally Posted by Zorkion

well...i get the idea that hands like 58s are pretty shit to play in spots like this, and im going to be generally be pushing that play out of game. That said though, are there any good resources/articles for analytically deciding how we determine our preflop opening/calling ranges? I mean, Ive seen the whole 'generally, aj+, 88+ from utg, a bit more in mp, and a lot more in lp' idea, but my question is more what is the math behind designing these ranges on a hand by hand basis?

I wouldn't worry so much about analytically deciding anything at this point in your game. Just humble yourself a little, get a preflop chart and play a shit ton of hands; say 20k+. By then you should start to get a feel for game flow and why 68s ep is so fucking horrible. There is nothing to analyze. Just start playing more hands based on whats proven to work and it'll keep you out of trouble until you get better.

Originally Posted by Nekrogovner

Let me ask you a question.
Do you always call 58s vs an utg opener?
No? Why not? Is there a reasoning behind it or you simply have an inconsistent preflop strategy?
What is your VPIP? Do you know that VPIP of person who calls pre with 58s or better is around 55%? Is your VPIP that high?

I like where this is going. And its all good.

Originally Posted by Nekrogovner

What is your VPIP? Do you know that VPIP of person who calls pre with 58s or better is around 55%? Is your VPIP that high?

Some very rough assumptions being made that the PokerStove slider % which includes 85s = hero's entire range. More likely that hero here gets excited with "implied odds" when he sees an UTG raiser (omg he has AA and will stack off every time I hit!) and a pretty suited hand, and had just had grossly overestimated the implied odds he actually has. Who of us here hasn't overestimated their implied odds at some point or another? Also situations like calling a BU steal in the BB with 55 and being surprised when you hardly ever win his stack when you hit a set.

Well said, we all do it.
Let him who who has never sinned cast the first stone.