CO Steal Vs Sb Steal

[!Luck]

Should your range be wider stealing from the CO or the SB?

Discuss.

[Razvan729]

i think from CO and for 2 reasons, though i am not sure i am right, this is my opinion:

CO opening or raising 1 or 2 limpers has more credibility then in SB
CO we are IP vs possible callers except BUTT and he is not gonna call all the time

so for these 2 i think CO is better for a wide opening range then SB

[Vinland]

Not totally sure...

I have reasons for both:

Cut Off
The good: If you steal you have a better chance of being in position. Only the btn can end up with position on you so you likely will have the best position on the flop which is ideal. Sometimes the strength of your cards matter little when you have position.
The bad: If the 3 players left have 85% fold to steal, your chance of sucess is just over 60%. If you get a caller, there is a higher chance that you are behind in hand strength. I find you also have to spend a bit more as well (3-4x bb) for the smaller chance of success.

From the SB:
The good: You only need one player to fold so you can spend less (say 2.5-3x bb) to steal and have a high chance for sucess.
The bad: You never have postion when called. Also, the BB might expect your range to be wider and may start 3betting more, or calling in position.

I steal a lot more from the sb b/c I only have to go through one player. Its less risk (small steal size) for the same reward. However getting called sucks...

[Roid_Rage]

SB ainec

[spoonitnow]

Nothing I've got greatly exemplifies reasons for another goddamn gayass oblivious thread.

[daviddem]

Everything else being equal, your range should be wider from the SB. Let's imagine for a moment that when you are on the CO, the blinds are just dead money. You now have to play OOP vs the button to win these blinds. This is exactly the same situation as when you play in the SB vs the BB, to win these same blinds. But as a matter of fact, when you are in the CO, the blinds are not dead money. You also have to play against them, not just against the button, which makes it a less favorable situation compared to when you play only against one player in a blind battle.

er... was that clear?

[Openside]

Should your range be wider stealing from the CO or the SB?

Discuss.

My range is the same, pretty much bc of what davidem said.

[kmind]

Are you talking about opening unopened pots? It should be the SB by a good amount. Obviously a ton of things can change in each situation to merit a CO open being better than an SB open at that given time, but at the micros there's way too much folding to an open or HU on the flop. My database says like I'm opening my CO ~30% and my SB ~43.

[Righton]

If your post flop game is precise and strong then open the widest from the CO, If your preflop game is strongest then go with opening the widest UO pots from the sb there is a high probability you can take the pot down because you only have 1 more opponent left to act. This would also be highly opponent specific(tightness/Looseness preflop-Passiveness/Aggressiveness postflop for your opponent on the BB.

[grnydrowave2]

Short answer: SB by a mile. You have way more fold equity.

Long answer: You're obviously going to open all the same stuff that you open in EP/MP from CO/BU/SB. The remainder of hands you open with will be marginal hands that have little value postflop. Most of the value comes from preflop fold equity.

Suppose you're in the CO with Q8o. The three opponents to your left are massive nits that fold 87% of the time. If you raise 3x, you need to take down the blinds 66% of the time for this to be a break even play. In this situation, all 3 of your opponents will fold 65.8%. It's not a positive EV play in terms of pure preflop fold equity, but it's very close, and you can squeeze a little bit of value out of the hand postflop (in the long run). So it's probably a good spot to raise.

However, if you make the same sized raise with the same hand against the same opponents from the Button, you will take down the blinds 75.7% of the time. Now you're printing money. You can auto-fold every time you get called and the move is still +EV purely by preflop fold equity.

Obviously, it's even more valuable from the SB. Your opponent folds 87% of the time. You should be raising any two cards against an opponents like this until they adjust. And guys who fold that much from the blinds often suck at adjusting.

EDIT: Now consider how wide you might consider opening from all three positions if the opponents to your left fold 70% instead.

[daviddem]

Short answer: SB by a mile. You have way more fold equity.

Long answer: You're obviously going to open all the same stuff that you open in EP/MP from CO/BU/SB. The remainder of hands you open with will be marginal hands that have little value postflop. Most of the value comes from preflop fold equity.

Suppose you're in the CO with Q8o. The three opponents to your left are massive nits that fold 87% of the time. If you raise 3x, you need to take down the blinds 66% of the time for this to be a break even play. In this situation, all 3 of your opponents will fold 65.8%. It's not a positive EV play in terms of pure preflop fold equity, but it's very close, and you can squeeze a little bit of value out of the hand postflop (in the long run). So it's probably a good spot to raise.

However, if you make the same sized raise with the same hand against the same opponents from the Button, you will take down the blinds 75.7% of the time. Now you're printing money. You can auto-fold every time you get called and the move is still +EV purely by preflop fold equity.

Obviously, it's even more valuable from the SB. Your opponent folds 87% of the time. You should be raising any two cards against an opponents like this until they adjust. And guys who fold that much from the blinds often suck at adjusting.

EDIT: Now consider how wide you might consider opening from all three positions if the opponents to your left fold 70% instead.

Thanks, this is much clearer than my post above, and made so obvious just by considering the preflop fold equity.

[grnydrowave2]

Edited.

lol drunkaments

I'm still half inebriated, but pretty sure this post was stupid.

[!Luck]

I made this thread, because I am a crazy nit out of the SB. But thinking about it I realized that's pretty dumb considering I am up against one opponent, who prob folds way too much.

Gryny said it best that in SB your fold equity is crazy.

Thanks for the great replies.

!luck

[Micro2Macro]

it depends lfdo

[daviddem]

Gryny said it best that in SB your fold equity is crazy.

Maybe it is but if the BB is aware, he also knows you are stealing a ton from the SB AND he knows he can play the hand IP vs your weak range. So he should be more willing to continue vs a SB raise than vs a button raise imo, because he would be OOP vs the button.

Positional advantage becomes primordial when weak ranges are up against each other (just like in heads up games).

So I am not sure that your fold equity in the SB is always that much greater than on the button for example (if both blinds are positionally aware).

So as m2m said, it depends.

[PlayToWin]

If you're a reader of the BC, and you see someone ask a question that seems really really simple, I think you would be doing yourself a great service if you took the time to answer it in depth. Pretend that it's your grandmother and she has hardly played a hand of poker in her life. Help her understand the concept. Now your understanding of it is completely solidified.

You Sir, are an idiot. I say this because Spoon thinks this thread is "goddamn gayass ".

[Viscaro]

Unopened, I raise from CO 25% and get 3bet about 14% of the time. Overall take down the blinds preflop about 44%
Unopened from SB I open about 37% and get 3bet about 9.5% of the time. Take down blinds pre ~59%
6m 25nls
over the last 50k hands
Should I be opening wider?

[Roid_Rage]

Spoonitnow isn't BC Mod anymore, therefore his opinion is unimportant imo.

[surviva316]

it depends lfdo

+96457631706428

[grnydrowave2]

Spoon is not saying what you think he's saying.

If you're not getting decent preflop FE, then you're basically raising for value when you open with weak hands. I don't really consider that stealing. If your opponents call a lot and you decide to adjust by value betting thin preflop, then obviously you should give position much more consideration.

If your opponents don't call very much, then raising with marginal stuff is bluffing/stealing. Position hardly matters at all, because most of the EV comes from FE. You don't expect to see a flop very often, and when you do, you don't expect to get much value. FE is key, which means you should do it way more often from the SB.