theoretical question

[littleogre]

i say theoretical because i can't find any HHs at the moment. How do you adjust to nits? By nits i mean the 5/2 type guys. Or even sometimes i run in do tightwads with a 1.5 pfr. I will list how i play them Guys feel free to add or voice any disagreement. My first comment is i don't think these guys have any concept of position. They generally play like a virgins cunt in all positions. Oh and i'm talking about bad nits. The kind who can't let go of those aces even when you reraise them on a jt9 flop value town them on all 3 streets.

pre-flop
1 never bluff when they enter a pot. Once they put money in they usually have a big hand
2call them with a lot of a lot with hands like small pairs and SCs ( suited connectors) Your implied odds against these guys is very good
3 bluff them a lot if they act after you. They want call unless they have a strong hand.

[spoonitnow]

Steal more when they're on your left, call more preflop when they're on your right (increased implied odds due to their super tight range), keep in mind the strength of their range on all streets.

Okay so I read the first 3-4 sentences of your post, typed up the above reply, then finished the rest of your post and realized it was basically the same thing. Hah.

[Blazing_Saddler]

They are the easiest players to play against. Even I can put a "5/2" On a range. Just rape their blinds with ATC. Fold to their 3 bets without a premium hand.

TT+ ,KQs+, AQo+

Rough estimate

Just rape their blinds with any two cards. I wouldn't really sit at a table with players like that to my right.

It's a very general statement, because obviously there are many more factors, but you can pretty much stack off with any hand that beats AA in a raised pot post flop.

[Arjonius]

How good you implied odds are depends on your effective stack sizes. With hands like suited connectors, you're going to miss or not catch well enough to continue the large majority of the time. Plus when you continue after catchng draws, you'll lose more money on a fair number of those hands too. So you probably want to be looking at something like 20x the amount you put in the pot when you call.

That siad, when you do catch a big hand, don't get cute. Simply bet in whatever way seems most likely to get the opponent's entire effective stack into the middle.

[kmind]

Yeah basically what everyone else said. I was going to warn you about calling with SC and effective stack sizes. I feel like at some point you should be playing 100% of your hands vs. them if they raise preflop and effective stacks equal x amount. X is uncertain but if they are really that crazy then yeah implied odds should even work for that. These guys should be the most fun to play against imo. Unlike maniacs, when you put your money in they'll either be dead or drawing to 2 outs the majority of the time. And against your described villain this will happen often.

Obv. open 100% vs. them if they are in the BB and we are the SB.

[OhioRounder]

Some people bumhunt. Well I like to nit-hunt with an empty seat to their right, and open raise 100% of the time from the CO/BU. It's free money and they rarely, if ever, adjust. You don't have to raise as much either. You could make it 2-2.5x and they're still folding 95% of the time.

[littleogre]

Yea i love playing nits. Much rather be at a table full of 6/4 types then a bunch of 60/30 lagtards.

[JKDS]

Yea i love playing nits. Much rather be at a table full of 6/4 types then a bunch of 60/30 lagtards.

?

[littleogre]

?

Whats the ? about nits are supper easy to play. You can rob them blind and it's easy to get a read on them. Seriously at 2nl you can follow the following rules and pwn 99 percent of the nits

1 always steal their blinds. If you are first in on the button and you have a couple 5/2 guys left to act raise atleast 80 percent of your hands untill they adlust.
2 always respect their pf raises. if they raise and you don't have a better hand or a get draw hand like a small pair or JT with good implied odds get out quick
3 rarely stack off with a naked over pair. They are at the bottom of any self respecting nits stacking range so if you stack off with them it's -ev Ofcourse some nits will stack off with tptk.
4 if you have position on them after the flop and they check after raising pre-flop this is a good chance to steal from a nit. They likely have a hand like AK/AQ and missed. If the flop has a ace or king they likely have an under pair.
This may not be the most +ev way to play nits but it works fine for me.

[littleogre]

here is a question. Concerns KK versus a nit. No it's not whether you should stack off or not.
Ok you raise KK pf and a uber nit 3-bets. His 3-betting range is QQ+. He doesn't even 3-bet AK. You know that if you 4-bet shove he will always call. You also know that if you just call you can pot bet any monotone flop and he will fold his big pair unless he has a matching card. IE the flop is 3 hearts and he has the K of hearts. Also if the flop has an ace or king you can pot it and get him to fold if he has an under pair. Whats the ev calling his 3-bet pf and shoving pf.

[littleogre]

Ps.

we are atleast 100xbb deep.

[littleogre]

PPs. or is it pss not sure.

Anyway i don't know the answer to my above question so this isn't a quiz just trying to get a discussion started.

[littleogre]

I are to dumb to figure out the ev of calling but shoving is not as awesome as some may think. If we call though we have to be willing to turn our kings into a bluff on the flop. I know this is an unusual play for 2nl but we are talking about a paticular type of villain. Not your typical calling station.

[JKDS]

Whats the ? about nits are supper easy to play

While this is certainly true, they are also not the most profitable type of player to play against. I tried writing a long response to this but couldnt come up with any clever analogies (probably cuz im not all that clever). All my question mark is trying to do is get you to rethink that statement, because im certain most people would rather be at a table full of 60/30s than a table full of 5/4s, and i know I would.

[speedcake]

Whats the ? about nits are supper easy to play. You can rob them blind and it's easy to get a read on them. Seriously at 2nl you can follow the following rules and pwn 99 percent of the nits

.

so now Im confused as to why you started teh thread

[littleogre]

so now Im confused as to why you started teh thread

Just to see what others have to say. I never said i know it all when it comes to playing nits.

[littleogre]

While this is certainly true, they are also not the most profitable type of player to play against. I tried writing a long response to this but couldnt come up with any clever analogies (probably cuz im not all that clever). All my question mark is trying to do is get you to rethink that statement, because im certain most people would rather be at a table full of 60/30s than a table full of 5/4s, and i know I would.

Well we all know calling stations are the best to play against. When it comes to nits versus maniacs i prefer nits. For one the variance is lower. Sure one maniac is easy to beat but i find it nightmarish to be at a table with 3 or more. Constantly getting caught in the middle of there raising wars just plain sucks

[littleogre]

Kinda of subject but isn't a maniac a nits fav opponent?

[JKDS]

Kinda of subject but isn't a maniac a nits fav opponent?

Its not about who nits prefer to play against, its about how best to exploit an opponent. If you play a 5/4 style, you are, without a doubt, exploiting a manaic...that is true.

HOWEVER

just as we have +EV and ++++++++++EV we have exploitive and SUPER exploitive.

Lets illustrate. We are a 5/4 nit on the button facing a raise from a 60/30 in the co.

as a 5/4 nit, you are only playing {99-AA, AK, AQ}. So you look down and see AJ. Since you are a nit, and AJ isnt in that 5/4 range, you fold.

But wait!

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 58.428% 55.89% 02.53% 3881904372 175964082.00 { AJo }
Hand 1: 41.572% 39.04% 02.53% 2711272488 175964082.00 { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, A5o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }

So why are we folding AJ again? Clearly at least calling is +EV, so we are losing money when we fold because we arent exploiting this guy's 30%pfr properly.

What about hands like A9, JTs, 65s, 55? Almost every hand skyrockets in value when playing against someone that relentlessly puts money into the pot. We can set mine, we get implied odds for connectors, we have equity to call down with Axs, etc. Like, all of a sudden hands that were in no way shape or form playable have a positive expectation before considering implied odds!

So sure, the nits 99-AA, AK, AQ range does exploit the maniac, but he misses out on sooooo much value. Its like he was a kid in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, found a candy bar, ate the chocolate, but discarded the golden ticket. Why would you do that?

So lets talk about our range now. All of a sudden we have this guy where many many many hands have enough equity to call a raise, and many more have enough to 3bet. Is this not fantastic???