When is openlimping OK?

[pokerroomace]

I literally never openlimp online. I play 6max NLHE.

I read this today at "http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=8009768&page=0&vc=1" :

If the players left to act all have miniscule PFRs, you can limp with extremely speculative hands and expect to see very cheap flops, giving you marvelous implied odds. Take advantage of it.

Isn't this bad advice? Also, by raising you increase your chances of having position postflop. If you limp you could get a few extra limpers behind you.

What are the fundamental reasons for raising preflop rather than openlimping?
To take control of the hand.
To use your position.
To build a pot.
To isolate players.
To play a flop with fewer opponents.
To steal the blinds. (almost forget this one!)
What else?

I also rarely limp when noone there have been no raises before me (ie only limpers). I will either raise or fold 95%+ of the time in this situation.

When there is a raise before me and I'm on the button with a hand I want to play I will often just call. This is very dependent on my table image though. If I don't have a loose image and I haven't been 3betting preflop a lot at the table, I will raise a wide range of hands that I want to play, like T9s.
Often I do have a loosish image and have been 3betting quite a bit, so I will call with a hand like T9s rather than raising it.
Is this OK?

Also, how should you play hands like AJ and AT pf? Is it better to 3bet AJo on BTN with a raise before by a standard player, or is it better to just call? or even fold? (I'm talking 6max btw).

A lot of different questions and ideas in this post, I would like to hear others thoughts on all parts of the post.

[WillburForce]

i play 6max $.15/$.25. - - just noticed you play 400nl - i'm only on the cheap 25nl, so most of what i said don't count!

I limp quite a lot. If for instance I get pockets pairs 5-5 and below, i just want to limp and look for set value(obviosuly call about 3x raise).

I also limp lots of low suited connectors. I want to get in cheap and try and pick something up on the flop. Then build the pot.

Not sure what stakes your playing, but at my level, you can get in cheap and usually get callers after the flop if you hit your monster/draw.

[pokerroomace]

i play 6max $.15/$.25. - - just noticed you play 400nl - i'm only on the cheap 25nl, so most of what i said don't count!

sad, but true.

I limp quite a lot. If for instance I get pockets pairs 5-5 and below, i just want to limp and look for set value(obviosuly call about 3x raise).

i also used to do this at lower limits and i think it is the most profitable way to play pp's at these stakes. when you reach $100NL though you need to start raising all your hands and rarely/never open-limping.

I also limp lots of low suited connectors. I want to get in cheap and try and pick something up on the flop. Then build the pot.

again, nb advice. similar to low pp's. i don't like this tactic though. i was never great friends with suited connectors. they never seemed to win me a big hand. i think you need to raise the suited connectors (if you're playing them) so that you can get value from making players fold on the flop to your cbet.

Not sure what stakes your playing, but at my level, you can get in cheap and usually get callers after the flop if you hit your monster draw.

true. but again not for higher stakes games IMO.

thanks for your advice anyway.[/quote]

[gop2004]

In EP, I'll sometimes (very rarely) limp a premium holding (QQ+) with the intent of inducing a raise so I can RR. I do this only when I'm virtually certain to get a raise behind me. This presupposes that I have reads on individuals or the table just doesn't ever allow a limp around. However, I also play 25nl so what works at 400nl is likely different. I mainly do this if the cards have made me very active for a stretch. It's a changeup from my normal play.

[SHAKE]

really if you do anything in poker, and you use the words ALWAYS or NEVER. Its probly wrong. OL is good to vary your play, 6max im more on your side as sc's go way down in value. I do however OL suited aces and somtimes big or small pairs. Theres alot of value in it, if youve open limped Axs a few times, it might be worth ol QQ+ once hoping someoone will squeeze. All and all 6 max dosent leave alot of room for it, basicly UTG with a big hand when you think youll get squeezed, or just to varry your play.

[pokerroomace]

really if you do anything in poker, and you use the words ALWAYS or NEVER. Its probly wrong. OL is good to vary your play, 6max im more on your side as sc's go way down in value. I do however OL suited aces and somtimes big or small pairs. Theres alot of value in it, if youve open limped Axs a few times, it might be worth ol QQ+ once hoping someoone will squeeze. All and all 6 max dosent leave alot of room for it, basicly UTG with a big hand when you think youll get squeezed, or just to varry your play.

ye... i agree that saying always or never is usually wrong in poker, but this is different. i think it would be better for you to openraise Axs rather than limping it btw.
if openlimping is part of your strategy then i agree that you need to occasionally limp big hands like AA.

when you watch poker on TV you see pros open-limping. you see this in both cash games and tournaments.
is it ok to openlimp in tournies? why?
why do pros openlimp on HSP?

[2_Thumbs_Up]

i also used to do this at lower limits and i think it is the most profitable way to play pp's at these stakes. when you reach $100NL though you need to start raising all your hands and rarely/never open-limping.

I think this is the answer to your question. When your opponents suck.

[overflow]

This may be the donk comment of the thread, but I actually prefer suited 1 and 2 gappers to straight SCs. Reason being the majority of your big pot value in suited connectors is straights, not flushes. Flat SCs make very obvious straights, the last thing you want from hands your playing for speculative big pot value is transparency when you make your hand.

My $0.02.

Edit:
E.g. T7 on a K986 board == ship it.

[biondino]

T7 on almost any other board - useless to lethal.

[pokerroomace]

This may be the donk comment of the thread, but I actually prefer suited 1 and 2 gappers to straight SCs. Reason being the majority of your big pot value in suited connectors is straights, not flushes. Flat SCs make very obvious straights, the last thing you want from hands your playing for speculative big pot value is transparency when you make your hand.

My $0.02.

Edit:
E.g. T7 on a K986 board == ship it.

it's funny you should say that. today i was reading about a hand where hero had T7 and the board came J98, 3 and hero folded his hand on the turn.

but suited gappers are nice hands. 97s and 86s are the nuts.
52s is also sweet. flop of 5o4s3s allin on flop against a set and hitting the draw. ship that.

[SHAKE]

pros limp in cash games for a few reasons.

I think #1 is trap. Limp with big hands, not only to disguise them but to reraise squeezers. Also hands like QQ JJ are much more vunerable in a cash game.

#2 is to vary thier play. Thats it, you cant raise every pot you enter, your gona squeezed.

#3 Value. In cash games getting in cheap ios a big part of that stratagy for players who like to play alot of hands. You just lose to much value raising all your suited conecters. Folding them is out of the question though, you need to pla hands that make big hands or the nuts to stack people. Honestly unless your opp has an under paie and the board is dry, your not gona do alot of stacking with AA or KK. 76s though your eaither gona fold, or drive Vil to value town, one way.

6 max is tricky i guess if you never OL'd you wouldnt be too far off from optimum play. Just depends on your image. 6max i probly play 28/18/4ish. I guess i really only open limp when i have a big hand and im expecting to gt squeezed more then 75% of the time.

How about this question.
Whats worce open limping or cold calling. why?

[pokerroomace]

pros limp in cash games for a few reasons.

I think #1 is trap. Limp with big hands, not only to disguise them but to reraise squeezers. Also hands like QQ JJ are much more vunerable in a cash game.

#2 is to vary thier play. Thats it, you cant raise every pot you enter, your gona squeezed.

#3 Value. In cash games getting in cheap ios a big part of that stratagy for players who like to play alot of hands. You just lose to much value raising all your suited conecters. Folding them is out of the question though, you need to pla hands that make big hands or the nuts to stack people. Honestly unless your opp has an under paie and the board is dry, your not gona do alot of stacking with AA or KK. 76s though your eaither gona fold, or drive Vil to value town, one way.

6 max is tricky i guess if you never OL'd you wouldnt be too far off from optimum play. Just depends on your image. 6max i probly play 28/18/4ish. I guess i really only open limp when i have a big hand and im expecting to gt squeezed more then 75% of the time.

How about this question.
Whats worce open limping or cold calling. why?

what's coldcalling? there was an argument on its definition last week. i can't remember it's exact definition

is it calling a raise or is it limping behind other limpers?
both of them are much better than openlimping. neither of them is a mistake whereas openlimping is.

when you talk about the pros, you're reffering to their very deep stack, long handed games right?

[deacon_bluez]

I almost always will open limp small pp's (middle pp's depending on position), sc's, and suited aces. I play mainly $25NL full ring.

My question is: with these hands, after you've limped, do you call a standard raise preflop? Or fold? Does the answer depend on position? In this situation, I will always call with pp's, but usually fold the others. It's only a quarter. But I have often wondered if I need to rethink this and be more aggressive with SC's and Axs. (I almost always fold Axo unless in cut-off or button, because I really hate playing ace-rag and getting outkicked as so often seems to happen.)

So my real question is: how serious should I be to see a flop with SC's and Axs? A beginner question, I suppose, but this is a beginners' forum....

[LiveTheDreams]

thx

[SHAKE]

Cold calling is calling a raise, used more in limit holdem, where the idea preflop is to RR or Fold.

I almost always will open limp small pp's (middle pp's depending on position), sc's, and suited aces. I play mainly $25NL full ring.

My question is: with these hands, after you've limped, do you call a standard raise preflop? Or fold? Does the answer depend on position? In this situation, I will always call with pp's, but usually fold the others. It's only a quarter. But I have often wondered if I need to rethink this and be more aggressive with SC's and Axs. (I almost always fold Axo unless in cut-off or button, because I really hate playing ace-rag and getting outkicked as so often seems to happen.)

So my real question is: how serious should I be to see a flop with SC's and Axs? A beginner question, I suppose, but this is a beginners' forum....

Great question here. Ill take some time with it.

Ok,

how serious should I be to see a flop with SC's and Axs

With sc's pretty serious. Scs make the nuts and the nuts stack people with big hands. You need to raise them (andAxs) somtimes t vary your play, as far as calling a raise i like doyles rules...less then 10% of your stack. NLH is a game of stacking people, big pots... If you folded everytime somone raised with a SC you would never be in there while someone hads a big hand. Implied odds. See, i rather have 67s (preflop) aginst AA then aginst TJs. why? well because if i hit my 67 tj dosent pay me off, AA might with his whole stack.

Axs is different, it really depends on your skill level. Being new i would try to get in cheap. See the problem with Axs is getting to attached to thae hand when you hit your ace or kicker. Thats not what you want, you want trips 2 pair or a flush. I would say play axs from lp for a limp, dont call raises. As you get better, you can open up more with that type of hand.

You wan pairs, Big suited cards (KJs KQs Aks), and sc's. those hands you can play for anything <10% of your stack.

(I almost always fold Axo unless in cut-off or button, because I really hate playing ace-rag and getting outkicked as so often seems to happen.)

Yes definatly. Just remember what your looking for with this type of hand. I think a good way to learn is this. Cut out A6-7-8-9s

Just play suited aces A2 A3 A4 A5 then AT AJ AQ AK

This way the weaker aces are like a suited conector. Eaither you make a flush a st or 2 pair, or you fold. If the A hits and you have A3s, just fold to action.

Also realize that NLH you need a plan, calling a raise with plans to c/f a flop that you miss isnt good play. Know your opps, have a plan. If all you can say is, Well ill call this raise, and if i miss i fold, just fold preflop, as you normally wont hit anyway. I think one excepton yo this rule is small pairs, as playing to flop a set is fine, folding when you miss. But still have a plan, depending on what the flop brings, decide what your opp might have and act acordingly.

[pgil]

the only thing to add to the above would be to make sure that you are doing all of this with position. SC's out of position are just a waste of time for the most part, especially if you are calling a raise.

[pokerroomace]

SC's and suited Ax's are way over rated. You shouldn't be playing them every single time and it is even acceptable to fold them most of the time.
SC's and Axs's are nowhere near as good pocket pairs, because you rarely flop the nuts with SC's and Axs and usually have to see a turn or even a river, therefore committing even more money to the pot.
In general I would stay away from suited Ax and play it just as you play Axo. Axs is way too overvalued at lower stakes. How often do you actually hit a flush?
And when you do, do you get paid off? People can see possible flushes, even at lower stakes, but hitting a set is always very deceptive and hard to spot.

the only thing to add to the above would be to make sure that you are doing all of this with position. SC's out of position are just a waste of time for the most part, especially if you are calling a raise.

i agree.

[Chopper]

I almost always will open limp small pp's (middle pp's depending on position), sc's, and suited aces. I play mainly $25NL full ring.

My question is: with these hands, after you've limped, do you call a standard raise preflop? Or fold? Does the answer depend on position? In this situation, I will always call with pp's, but usually fold the others. It's only a quarter. But I have often wondered if I need to rethink this and be more aggressive with SC's and Axs. (I almost always fold Axo unless in cut-off or button, because I really hate playing ace-rag and getting outkicked as so often seems to happen.)

So my real question is: how serious should I be to see a flop with SC's and Axs? A beginner question, I suppose, but this is a beginners' forum....

i think SHAKE answered your post quite well.. the only thing i will add is...

i will call any raise w/ a pp, provided it is less than 10% of MY stack, and HIS both. i like them oop very much because it gives me much more opportunity to allow my opponent to spew some chips.

however, dont be afraid, when IN position, to raise them up, too. they will allow you to take a lot of pots post flop w/ cbets. on button with 33...raise (if folded to)...if the blinds call, you cbet the flop most times, and win a lot of those. if called, you check-behind turn or fold to a bet...unless you spike your 3 then its GO TIME!!

with sc's i love to hide behind limpers. but, i also call standard raises in a full ring game...when theres another caller. i dont like them HU or oop. i will open-limp them on a table that will allow that to happen, but i will also, on rare occasion, 3bet them light...and play them like AK for the flop and turn...but thats rare, and prolly not a great move at 25NL...i just like to see what i can do against tighter players.

learn when conditions are right for them...like SHAKE said...and mix them up a bit on your own. you'll learn to like them a lot before long. and, i just read somewhere that suited-gappers are more deceptive than sc's...i concur. those can be deadly...but you want to see flops cheaply 95% of the time with them.

AXs, i will open-limp. i dont want to drive away action because my only monster play is with the nut flush..maybe 2 pair.. however, i will raise to 3X or 4X in late position when there are a lot of callers already in...to sweeten the pot for a big hand. if i have 4 limpers in front, i KNOW they arent all folding to a pfr. so, i raise lightly to get more money in pf. if i hit my draw, i play it aggressively, if not, i watch the action and decide then. if everyone looks weak, i may take a stab...but i dont get overly aggressive when i miss, as in a limped pot with players calling a light raise...there are a lot of pp's out there, sc's, gappers, etc....makes it tough to read the hands when so many combos are out.

food for thought.

[SHAKE]

I almost always will open limp small pp's (middle pp's depending on position), sc's, and suited aces. I play mainly $25NL full ring.

My question is: with these hands, after you've limped, do you call a standard raise preflop? Or fold? Does the answer depend on position? In this situation, I will always call with pp's, but usually fold the others. It's only a quarter. But I have often wondered if I need to rethink this and be more aggressive with SC's and Axs. (I almost always fold Axo unless in cut-off or button, because I really hate playing ace-rag and getting outkicked as so often seems to happen.)

So my real question is: how serious should I be to see a flop with SC's and Axs? A beginner question, I suppose, but this is a beginners' forum....

i think SHAKE answered your post quite well.. the only thing i will add is...

i will call any raise w/ a pp, provided it is less than 10% of MY stack, and HIS both. i like them oop very much because it gives me much more opportunity to allow my opponent to spew some chips.

however, dont be afraid, when IN position, to raise them up, too. they will allow you to take a lot of pots post flop w/ cbets. on button with 33...raise (if folded to)...if the blinds call, you cbet the flop most times, and win a lot of those. if called, you check-behind turn or fold to a bet...unless you spike your 3 then its GO TIME!!

with sc's i love to hide behind limpers. but, i also call standard raises in a full ring game...when theres another caller. i dont like them HU or oop. i will open-limp them on a table that will allow that to happen, but i will also, on rare occasion, 3bet them light...and play them like AK for the flop and turn...but thats rare, and prolly not a great move at 25NL...i just like to see what i can do against tighter players.

learn when conditions are right for them...like SHAKE said...and mix them up a bit on your own. you'll learn to like them a lot before long. and, i just read somewhere that suited-gappers are more deceptive than sc's...i concur. those can be deadly...but you want to see flops cheaply 95% of the time with them.

AXs, i will open-limp. i dont want to drive away action because my only monster play is with the nut flush..maybe 2 pair.. however, i will raise to 3X or 4X in late position when there are a lot of callers already in...to sweeten the pot for a big hand. if i have 4 limpers in front, i KNOW they arent all folding to a pfr. so, i raise lightly to get more money in pf. if i hit my draw, i play it aggressively, if not, i watch the action and decide then. if everyone looks weak, i may take a stab...but i dont get overly aggressive when i miss, as in a limped pot with players calling a light raise...there are a lot of pp's out there, sc's, gappers, etc....makes it tough to read the hands when so many combos are out.

food for thought.

Very nice addition. I cant disagree with anything being said here. Reread this and what i wrote, and yes position position position...

These plays he's mentioning are Winning plays, you do not want someone like this at your table, you want to be this guy. I really like the way chopper explains playin PP OOP. Trust me once he stacks someone with a c/c c/c c/c line, he gets tons of free cards for the rest of the sess.

[Fnord]

9-handed I don't raise at all from the first 3 positions. Particularly in loose live games where people are opening for 5-10 times the big blind, won't increase their raise size much due to limpers and raise light but rarely 3-bet light (barring a read.)

Online, I rarely open-limp.

[SHAKE]

9-handed I don't raise at all from the first 3 positions. Particularly in loose live games where people are opening for 5-10 times the big blind, won't increase their raise size much due to limpers and raise light but rarely 3-bet light (barring a read.)

Online, I rarely open-limp.

Honest question, Youll limp KK UTG at a live 1-2 table?

howabout AA?

[Fnord]

Honest question, Youll limp KK UTG at a live 1-2 table?

howabout AA?

Yes, unless the money is 200bb+ deep.

AA-QQ/AK are all limp re-raises (although I might just quietly fold AK/QQ if I don't think it's good.)

It's an exploitive line given how these games play.

[bigslikk]

Cold-calling is this:

Player 1 limps, Player 2 raises, Player 3 calls, Player 1 calls
Player 1 raises, Player 2 re-raises, Player 3 calls, Player 1 calls

Player 3 is cold-calling. Player three is cold-calling in both cases. He's not invested at all, yet still calls. Player one is not cold-calling. He gave action, got some back, he's in the thick of it already.

I think it resembles the phrase "in cold blood." When someone is killed in cold blood, it means that they were killed without there being any fight, passion, or buildup. If there was a huge fight, blood is spilt, it's warm.

Thus cold calling = he's not involved, he calls significant action "cold" (without any previous investment). It means one of two things:
1. He's a solid player with a monster hand who wants to slither in and let the other two idiots do his betting (while he remains out of sight and mind).
2. He's a donk who can't fold, no matter what.

Okay, open-limping. I do it. I usually play at weak and loose enough tables post and preflop that I can get away with it unpunished. Also, many of the benefits of raising are negated at such a table.

-raising to thin the field fails often
-raising to take control fails; people either don't remember or care who raised pf.
-raising for value is marginal (if you don't have QQ+). Evidence: go to cardplayer.com percentage calculator. Bring 5 players to flop with different combinations of hands. You'll realize this fact: the more players to the flop, the more marginal the edge of the better hands.

Aggression is of course highly advantageous and I can and do raise a lot at my table. It's just hard to completely negate open limping. Basically, no one gives credit for raises, and limping my 89s UTg is better then raising it (I strongly doubt raising my SC there would give me much value.)

[Fnord]

BTW: I'm talking about NLHE. In Limit I mix it up and only open limp at loose tables where I start adding Axs and pairs under 77.

Part of the problem I have is people do notice that I play tight and raising from EP will get less dead money into the pot and once they start putting in chips, they're going to keep putting in money until they see a flop or have their stack threatened.

My biggest concern is getting isolated by an aggro player, however a single raise isn't going to get the job done as I usually can count on 1-2 other loose players fustrating his efforts to isolate and bluff me.

By limping from early position I get the chance to play good hands against bad players, but get to see what stacks/players are in the pot before I commit chips to the pot.

[SHAKE]

BTW: I'm talking about NLHE. In Limit I mix it up and only open limp at loose tables where I start adding Axs and pairs under 77.

Part of the problem I have is people do notice that I play tight and raising from EP will get less dead money into the pot and once they start putting in chips, they're going to keep putting in money until they see a flop or have their stack threatened.

My biggest concern is getting isolated by an aggro player, however a single raise isn't going to get the job done as I usually can count on 1-2 other loose players fustrating his efforts to isolate and bluff me.

By limping from early position I get the chance to play good hands against bad players, but get to see what stacks/players are in the pot before I commit chips to the pot.

Sure, i agree. I think a BIG mistake good players make is chasing out weak players when they have the goods. I undestand limiting the field, but having a fish in the hand on the flop when you have AA-KK or somthing good isnt a bad thing, fish make more mistakes then us and mistakes line our pockets. I think alot of good players try to chase out the fish with a good hand. Ie you have KK on the button and two fisj=h in the blinds, i probly limp or min raise. Same deal with a weaker hand in position, if you feel you make better choices then your opps, you have position, and you have a decent stack, play with them!!!

[Chopper]

i would like to say that the reason we (novice players) dont open-limp is that we are not good enough post flop to drop KK+ to aggression. we simply dont believe our bullets got cracked by the table DONKEY. it becomes a "pride thing" where we cant be bullied by the fish...and show the rest of the table we will fold when we have a solid hand....and it starts to mentally spiral down from there.

its just easier to raise it up like normal (theoretically concealing our AA as KJ or something else we will raise 4X), and pray for action.

only later on (thousands of hands later) do we try and limp pf monsters...and when we get burned we kick ourselves.

finally (many, many 1000's of hands, maybe years), do we start to see when it is appropriate to open limp these hands.

my advice: learn faster that there ARE times to minraise...or limp the goot stuff.

[pokerroomace]

BTW: I'm talking about NLHE. In Limit I mix it up and only open limp at loose tables where I start adding Axs and pairs under 77.

Part of the problem I have is people do notice that I play tight and raising from EP will get less dead money into the pot and once they start putting in chips, they're going to keep putting in money until they see a flop or have their stack threatened.

My biggest concern is getting isolated by an aggro player, however a single raise isn't going to get the job done as I usually can count on 1-2 other loose players fustrating his efforts to isolate and bluff me.

By limping from early position I get the chance to play good hands against bad players, but get to see what stacks/players are in the pot before I commit chips to the pot.

Sure, i agree. I think a BIG mistake good players make is chasing out weak players when they have the goods. I undestand limiting the field, but having a fish in the hand on the flop when you have AA-KK or somthing good isnt a bad thing, fish make more mistakes then us and mistakes line our pockets. I think alot of good players try to chase out the fish with a good hand. Ie you have KK on the button and two fisj=h in the blinds, i probly limp or min raise. Same deal with a weaker hand in position, if you feel you make better choices then your opps, you have position, and you have a decent stack, play with them!!!

this is a big leak.

players often think they are being "smart" by slow-playing their big hands. they are not. there is obviously a place for slow-playing, but open-limping with AA on the button (or even minraising) with fairly deep stacks (50bb+) is not a good play.

players complain when the fish calls their bluff with TPWK after they had bet all 3 streets on a scary board. what i'm thinking after a hand like this is, when i get my AA or big hand i'm going to bet, bet, bet. slowplaying is a big mistake here.

you aren't being smart or deceptive by checking the flop and turn with your set and then getting in a value bet on the river that he would have folded on the flop, because you gave away the opportunity to win a big pot against the fish.

fish will put in money with weak holdings. playing a small pot against these players when you actually have a hand is a big mistake.

playing a big hand fast is more deceptive than playing slow.

reasons to raise with AA on button against the fish in the blinds are to build a pot and take a huge pot against them when they flop TP. and to make them at least pay to outdraw you.

and btw, you may think you can outplay the fish by openlimping AA on the btn, but you can't.

[Fnord]

I don't open limp from the BN/CO because the blinds are worth more than my range and I expect action from my big hands since I'm expected to open with a wide range. The fish love to defend against blind steals with weak hands.

There is a WORLD of difference between limping AA UTG at a full table vs open limping it on the button.

[pokerroomace]

There is a WORLD of difference between limping AA UTG at a full table vs open limping it on the button.

i totally agree. i was referring specifically to openlimping and minraising in LP in my last post.

[SHAKE]

BTW: I'm talking about NLHE. In Limit I mix it up and only open limp at loose tables where I start adding Axs and pairs under 77.

Part of the problem I have is people do notice that I play tight and raising from EP will get less dead money into the pot and once they start putting in chips, they're going to keep putting in money until they see a flop or have their stack threatened.

My biggest concern is getting isolated by an aggro player, however a single raise isn't going to get the job done as I usually can count on 1-2 other loose players fustrating his efforts to isolate and bluff me.

By limping from early position I get the chance to play good hands against bad players, but get to see what stacks/players are in the pot before I commit chips to the pot.

Sure, i agree. I think a BIG mistake good players make is chasing out weak players when they have the goods. I undestand limiting the field, but having a fish in the hand on the flop when you have AA-KK or somthing good isnt a bad thing, fish make more mistakes then us and mistakes line our pockets. I think alot of good players try to chase out the fish with a good hand. Ie you have KK on the button and two fisj=h in the blinds, i probly limp or min raise. Same deal with a weaker hand in position, if you feel you make better choices then your opps, you have position, and you have a decent stack, play with them!!!

this is a big leak.

players often think they are being "smart" by slow-playing their big hands. they are not. there is obviously a place for slow-playing, but open-limping with AA on the button (or even minraising) with fairly deep stacks (50bb+) is not a good play.

players complain when the fish calls their bluff with TPWK after they had bet all 3 streets on a scary board. what i'm thinking after a hand like this is, when i get my AA or big hand i'm going to bet, bet, bet. slowplaying is a big mistake here.

you aren't being smart or deceptive by checking the flop and turn with your set and then getting in a value bet on the river that he would have folded on the flop, because you gave away the opportunity to win a big pot against the fish.

fish will put in money with weak holdings. playing a small pot against these players when you actually have a hand is a big mistake.

playing a big hand fast is more deceptive than playing slow.

reasons to raise with AA on button against the fish in the blinds are to build a pot and take a huge pot against them when they flop TP. and to make them at least pay to outdraw you.

and btw, you may think you can outplay the fish by openlimping AA on the btn, but you can't.

Well, in the post your refering to, im basing alot of what im saying off of a 3 part artical mike caro wrote for poker news magazine. Limping AA on the button can be dangerous but very far from a leak. A leak is playing every Ace, or any suited card, or c-betting only when you have it. Instances that occur alot. Having AA or KK on the button, dosent happen alot, nor do i limp alot with it. Maby 1 evey 4 times. So givin i play 40 hands an hour live, its maby once a week, mabey twice. Hardly a leak.

Second i think again your looking at this problem very one dimentionaly. Fish make alot of mistakes, having them in the pot with us isnt a bad thing. Mot of our money comes from playing pots with fish. I think the general idea of my post might ring truer in this analagy.

Lets say you have the button with AA and the C/o o/r's. I would call rather then then 3-bet (if the blinds were weak players who i thought would call one (1/- 1-1/2 more bets) rather then 2 or 2 1/2 more. They are going to be puting money into a pot that right now i have a rather large equity edge in. not only because of my cards, but my over all ability to out play them. I dont in any way want to Discourage this.

[pokerroomace]

in response to SHAKE.

i'm referring more to online play (where you can't outplay the fish as much because you don't have physical tells to go on).

but, even for offline play, i think that by slowplaying AA preflop you as often as 1 in 4, you are losing a lot of value.

and also, i don't care that it might happen to you once a week. that's not the point. the point is to play optimum poker the whole time. i will be dealt AA more than 4 times a day sometimes online. also, if you are playing AA like this, you may also be playing hands like KK and other hands in a less than optimum way.

also, you do know that AA has a 50% chance of winning against 3 random hands.

by slowplaying AA preflop you become one of the fish.

it is true you want fish to get money in the pot. and you do that by raising! and not letting them in cheap!

i think this might be a fundamental flaw in your game. if you were openlimping AA 25% on the button online i would say this is definitely 100% a huge leak. and i would instantly note you down as a fish if i saw you make this play.

[Miffed22001]

i limp 22 UTG, or open fold depending on the game im sat in. I also raise 22 UTG.
Added to that ill limp AA/KK UTG 10%~ the time and perhaps just call an lp raise or limp reraise. Ill pull the same movew when i have 22 UTG sometimes and the lp raiser is aggro(i have table image for this)

When regs see you limping and reraising UTG and showing down big hands they take the move seriously.
If we add balance and a number of hands that can play a limp/call raise eg AK as well as little pps such as 22/33/44 then we can effectivly get away with adding a certain number of hands for limping providing we arent sat in super aggro 3betarific 6max games. Fwiw, on pokerrooms 5max games i wouldnt ever ever limp, even with 22/AA UTG.

[mixchange]

I had a weird dynamic at a 3/6 tables this weekend where 3 regs were 3 betting REDICULOUSLY light. UTG or in MP I was limping any hand I wanted to play besides QQ, AKs. Otherwise the posts were wayyy too big.

Maybe this wasn't the best counter-action but it kept the game playable for me, or I got priced out.

[SHAKE]

in response to SHAKE.

i'm referring more to online play (where you can't outplay the fish as much because you don't have physical tells to go on).

but, even for offline play, i think that by slowplaying AA preflop you as often as 1 in 4, you are losing a lot of value.

and also, i don't care that it might happen to you once a week. that's not the point. the point is to play optimum poker the whole time. i will be dealt AA more than 4 times a day sometimes online. also, if you are playing AA like this, you may also be playing hands like KK and other hands in a less than optimum way.

also, you do know that AA has a 50% chance of winning against 3 random hands.

by slowplaying AA preflop you become one of the fish.

it is true you want fish to get money in the pot. and you do that by raising! and not letting them in cheap!

i think this might be a fundamental flaw in your game. if you were openlimping AA 25% on the button online i would say this is definitely 100% a huge leak. and i would instantly note you down as a fish if i saw you make this play.

Im sorry but your logic is flawed and your just plain wrong. I thin you should read ace on the river, some caro, and som isues of poker news. Your just thinking the wrong way. gl though, making money.....i dont need it.

[pokerroomace]

in response to SHAKE.

i'm referring more to online play (where you can't outplay the fish as much because you don't have physical tells to go on).

but, even for offline play, i think that by slowplaying AA preflop you as often as 1 in 4, you are losing a lot of value.

and also, i don't care that it might happen to you once a week. that's not the point. the point is to play optimum poker the whole time. i will be dealt AA more than 4 times a day sometimes online. also, if you are playing AA like this, you may also be playing hands like KK and other hands in a less than optimum way.

also, you do know that AA has a 50% chance of winning against 3 random hands.

by slowplaying AA preflop you become one of the fish.

it is true you want fish to get money in the pot. and you do that by raising! and not letting them in cheap!

i think this might be a fundamental flaw in your game. if you were openlimping AA 25% on the button online i would say this is definitely 100% a huge leak. and i would instantly note you down as a fish if i saw you make this play.

Im sorry but your logic is flawed and your just plain wrong. I thin you should read ace on the river, some caro, and som isues of poker news. Your just thinking the wrong way. gl though, making money.....i dont need it.

lol. ok. thanks for the luck which everybody needs!

who can back me up on this?

i think you are wrong. not: you have a point wrong, but just plain 100% wrong.

i'm not going to carry on this discussion. you'll realize 1 hand day that openlimping AA 25% of the time on the button in 100bb poker is a flaw in your game.
and it spreads throughout your game. you're the sort of player (i'm guessing) that will check-call, check-call, check-raise a set as a default line.
or check-check, check-check, bet river.

you have a lot to learn about value betting my friend