Mine Setting

[DoubleJ]

It's like Set Mining, only not.

e.g. you open the pot with a standard 3B raise from LP holding small/mid PP and then get 3Bet 9BB.

is it ever profitable to call here, and if so what are the conditions?

[gingerwizard]

6BBs to win 12+1BB (assuming SB 3-bet to make it easier), + potential 91 behind.

So implied odds are roughly 17.3:1. The question is what do you really need? I.e. what are the odds of hitting a set AND getting his stack?

I would argue that in 3-bet pots it is easier to get the money in so that you maybe need less than ordinarily. I think a good condition is that you know the player doesn't 3-bet light. Can't fold TPTK is another good note to have on a player.

[rong]

The tighter the 3b range the better. But you should just fold in the first place if bb 3bs light.

[OngBonga]

If bb 3bets light, then see how often he 5bets before considering just mucking a pocket pair in lp. We should either have good setmining implied odds, or we can make a profitable play 4betting him, unless he's insanely good. People who 3bet the bb light should be targetted, not avoided, if they fold often enough to a 4bet.

[gingerwizard]

Of course if he 3-bets light, consider limping pf

[OngBonga]

Or that... I just can't bring myself to open limp these days.

[rong]

If you're gonna plan to 4b a light 3better I hate doing it with small pps and much prefer to do it with blockers, say small suited aces or something.

[OngBonga]

Guess it depends. I can 4bet light with 22-99 A2s+ K2s+, if I think villain folds enough. Depends on the villain and table dynamics up to this point. I certainly prefer to 4bet a light bb 3better than open fold or open limp with 44 say.

[gingerwizard]

And you don't think open limping 44 would approach the mathematically correct thing to do in that situation?

[OngBonga]

I don't know, it depends on what range villain puts us on when we open limp. If I'm going to start open limping small pairs because I fear the light 3bet from the bb, then I have to limp at least some suited conns to balance my limping range so I'm not so easy to play against post flop. Now we're limping too much. I don't like limping 44 to avoid the difficult problem of being 3bet by the bb, if he 3bets too light then he's exploitable. So exploit him.

[gingerwizard]

if he 3bets too light then he's exploitable. So exploit him.

And one of the ways to exploit him is not to kill your implied odds for pocket pairs and even SCs in LP by limping them.

Another is to open a smaller range in LP.

Another higher variance play is 4-betting light, but I prefer doing this with blockers as another poster said.

The way to combat lots of aggression is not ALWAYS with even more aggression.

Put it this way, if he 3-bets light he's likely to raise limps from the blinds with at least the same range. When you call, now you have position, a pocket pair, and an aggressor who will almost certainly lead his entire range on the flop. Can you not exploit that situation or do you always have to have a set?

[OngBonga]

You make some goods points. Problem with our implied odds pre flop though is his raising range is not narrow enough, we rarely stack him when we do hit a set. We can l/c pre and not really know where our pair is, so end up stationing down the worst hand or folding the best. To the river, we're practically flipping against his range, so trying to outplay the bb post flop with a small pair seems high variance too, especially if he's capable of triple barrelling his air.

I dunno, maybe limping is better than raising/4betting, I don't know his fold to 4bet stats and I don't know how he plays post flop when he misses. I guess I'm just refusing to open limp, I've trained myself to not do it and sneer at villains who do. I'd sooner fold than open limp..

[gingerwizard]

if he's capable of triple barrelling air, how do you exploit that?

[rpm]

If you're gonna plan to 4b a light 3better I hate doing it with small pps and much prefer to do it with blockers, say small suited aces or something.

agreed. small pairs are some of the worst hands to 4b bluff light. at least take something with a blocker. it's FE we want with our 4b bluff range, pot equity is almost irrelevant because we very rarely will get to a flop to realise it (and, just for arguments sake, even if we had some villain who likes to flat 4b's OOP, small pairs flop like shit anyway)

[rpm]

as for OP, there is never going to be a one-size-fits-all answer. learning to spot profitable set-mines is something you'll have to do for/by yourself in your own time. it's basically learning to figure out whether you will win enough the times you hit to at least cover the amount you lose the times you are forced to C/F. villain's tendencies are vital here. is their 3b range strong enough for you to get paid? or is he bluffing some decent frequency and thus we wont get paid frequently? what is his postflop game like? is he the kind of villain who will ALWAYS make you C/F when you hit (probably indicated by high flop CB)? does he have any spewy postflop tendencies which mean you will get paid off often even when he has medium or mediocre holdings? etc etc. for help with the maths side of it, search the forum for "about implied odds" and find spoon's post.

[rpm]

oh and just for triple post's sake, i think raise/folding pre is absolutely fine if we don't think we have setmining odds. if we develop some read that he is 3betting a polarised range and is likely to fold more than 66(ish)% to a 4b then sure we can pick a part of our opening range to turn into 4b bluffs, though for me that wouldnt include small pairs. i am really not a fan of open limping anything in LP because we want to give ourselves the initiative - this gives us more ways to win the pot with a given hand and increases the EV of that hand/our range. also, it's highly unlikely this guy is 3betting us frequently enough to warrant such drastic adjustments as are mentioned in this thread. just because he's bluffing some of the time doesn't mean we have to 4bet him this time. we have a whole range of hands we can pick and choose from to destroy his weak 3bets. no need to take the worse part of that range (for this job) to war

[baudib]

I'd fold unless you were 150 BBs deep with a guy who can't get away from overpairs.

[kickass]

just watched this vid and it totally answers your question Facing Preflop 3Bets | SplitSuit

[gingerwizard]

this guy advocates folding AK to a 3bet

[gingerwizard]

His idea, that the average player at 100NL doesn't 3-bet his button enough to even make flatting AK to a 3-bet OOP profitable against a 3-bet, and a 4 bet is terribad.

I wonder if I've found a leak in my game, or if someone has put a free levelling video out there

[JKDS]

this guy advocates folding AK to a 3bet range of 3% against a ep raise when we'd be oop

fyp

Also, and this isnt directed at anyone, ppl need to be very careful what they learn from poker videos. Theres a spot in that video where the guy doesnt 4bet KK and then just c/c's down against a button 3bet...which is probably completely fine at 100nl (idk ive never played). At the micros however, where ppl are stacking off with everything they 3bet, a 4bet is clearly superior.

[gingerwizard]

well he knows it's a 3% 3-bet range yet doesn't have enough hands to have any other info on the player.

[EasyPoker]

At the micros however, where ppl are stacking off with everything they 3bet.

This is nonsense.

[gingerwizard]

This is nonsense.

Well, perhaps the idea they are stacking everything off is nonsense. 4 betting being best might not be...

[EasyPoker]

Well, perhaps the idea they are stacking everything off is nonsense. 4 betting being best might not be...

The bit I quoted was the nonsense.

[JKDS]

Hyperbole, my b nh

[kickass]

I think his over all point is think how you gonna make money doing a certain action if you don't know how...fold, don't just call cos you've got a ok hand. This idea is solid. If you know how your gonna make money flatting AK to a button 3bet great go ahead do it make your money but I don't so calling just cos folding seems to tight is not a good reason to do it.