I Come to FTR to Learn... Not Makeout With You

[Airles™]

*cue the golf clap for the Billy Madison reference*

What's up boys, this is my first post here. I've been a long-time lurker here and read many of the strategy articles and essays, as well as some of the vids. I've been playing live poker for a few years and online for about a year now with mixed results. I deposited a $100 back in March of '08 and my bankroll currently sits at $207. So technically I'm not a losing player, but good grief I'm so ready to actually buckle down and start getting serious about this game.

I'm typically a small-ball player, more so in live games since those tend to be even more passive than online. It's amazing how good I am at playing my opponent's cards in a live game but online I'm very amateurish and seem to make enough mistakes that keeps me from breaking out of the "up and down" online bankroll routine.

My pre-flop strategy is industry standard for a semi-loose, small-ball player. It's after the flop where my play suffers, but not for the reason you might think. To be honest, I think the single biggest reason why I'm stuck in bankroll purgatory is I'm completely undisciplined. I've read all the books and blogs from today's and yesterday's biggest names in poker. I get it. So why the hell doesn't it translate into results?

I can play a shit ton of hands perfectly and then lose a huge pot with bottom two pair to someone who flopped the nuts. I can only be so passive/nitty and sometimes I just don't believe them. Turns out I'm wrong more often which is why my bankroll is increasing at a snail's pace.

It's shit or get off the pot with this game for me. I treat it as a hobby when I want it to be more than that. I'm not into the WPT style of poker and bingo tournaments we all see on late night television. Cash games are where it's at. It's real poker the way it was meant to be played.

Hopefully FTR will help me down a new results-driven, profitable path where some of the more experienced players will break down what the hell I may be doing wrong.

Does anyone know of any good online coaching sites that cater to laggy small-ball cash game players? Or should I stick to the FTR forums for now?

Also, I don't really use any tools like PokerStove or PT3. Could not tracking my results/stats be half my problem?

My goal is to be playing profitably at $50NL in 6 months and then go from there. How many hands should I be playing per week at $5 or $10NL to realistically get to that point while following standard BRM?

[SaulPaul]

definately get a HUD. If you're playing 10Nl or below you can get Poker Edge for $5 per month. It has a centralized database (meaning you can have many stats on players you have never seen). A quick warning, this means its actually against the rules of some poker sites.

Whats this obsession with small ball laggyness? Standard TAG poker is very effective at microstakes. Playing LAG is hard when you dont know if you're playing loose passive fish limping hands like 74s or a TAG who only limps pocket pairs

[dranger7070]

If you are gonna follow standard BRM you should probably wait until you have $250ish in your BR b4 u move up to 10nl.There are a TON of bank roll management posts around. Just go find spoonitnow's (best imo) I think it goes something like:

at $100 or 20 BI's move up to 5nl
at $250 or 25 BI's move up to 10nl
at $750 or 30 BI's move up to 25nl
at $1750 or 35 BI's move up to 50nl

As you can see just move up to the next level when you have 5 more BI's than you did for the previous level. I think I said that wrong, but I think you'll understand what I mean lol. Hope this helps you out. And if it doesn't, like I said, plenty of other BRM posts/ideas out there.

Good luck!

Dustin

[Jason]

I've read all the books and blogs from today's and yesterday's biggest names in poker. I get it. So why the hell doesn't it translate into results?

If I had to wager a guess, I'd say quite simply you either don't get it or don't do it

Cash games are where it's at. It's real poker the way it was meant to be played.

I agree with this.

Also, I don't really use any tools like PokerStove or PT3. Could not tracking my results/stats be half my problem?

I wouldn't break any poker site rules, but I think a HUD is essential. I personally use PokerTracker version 2 with GameTime+ but I've heard good things about HEM and I'd guess PT3 is better than PT2.

My goal is to be playing profitably at $50NL in 6 months and then go from there. How many hands should I be playing per week at $5 or $10NL to realistically get to that point while following standard BRM?

I don't know if I would set goals like trying be playing at a higher limit by a certain date. The main thing you want to do is learn and play solid poker plus stick to strict bankroll management rules. I highly recommend 30 buyins for NL no matter what the stakes and if you don't do 30 buyins, do 40 or 50. Once you start playing at a level, if you drop to 20 buyins @ that level, drop a level until you've built up 30 before you go back up. Never put more than 10% of your bankroll in play and if you lose 5% of your bankroll in one day, stop playing for the day.

Good luck!

[bigspenda73]

wtf I want a trademark on my name!

[kb coolman]

wtf I want a trademark on my name!

done

[dranger7070]

wtf I want a trademark on my name!

done

this=nuts imo

[jyms]

Bigsuspenders®
Noobiebasher™

[Airles™]

wtf I want a trademark on my name!

Finders keepers.

If I had to wager a guess, I'd say quite simply you either don't get it or don't do it

LMAO... But yeah, I pretty much don't do it. Well, I do, it's just those few hands where I go retarded and lose it. But that's no limit baby (damn you Scotty Nguyen).

Whats this obsession with small ball laggyness? Standard TAG poker is very effective at microstakes. Playing LAG is hard when you dont know if you're playing loose passive fish limping hands like 74s or a TAG who only limps pocket pairs

I'm not obsessed per say. I just find it easier to control the size of the pot more often than not. I know the standard is "tight is right" at the micros. So does this mean that the most profitable/least variance method of grinding the micros is to play +/- 12% of your hands? If that's generally the truth, I might as well open up 20 tables and sit on my hands.

Thanks for all the tips on BRM. I would rather be over-rolled for the stakes I'm at but then again replacing $200 isn't going to break me. I'm going to stick to $5NL for now though because for one, I haven't learned how to control tilt and two, I'm just not that good. I think I'm good but my online results let me know I'm very average.

Thanks

[dranger7070]

wtf I want a trademark on my name!

Finders keepers.

If I had to wager a guess, I'd say quite simply you either don't get it or don't do it

LMAO... But yeah, I pretty much don't do it. Well, I do, it's just those few hands where I go retarded and lose it. But that's no limit baby (damn you Scotty Nguyen).

Whats this obsession with small ball laggyness? Standard TAG poker is very effective at microstakes. Playing LAG is hard when you dont know if you're playing loose passive fish limping hands like 74s or a TAG who only limps pocket pairs

I'm not obsessed per say. I just find it easier to control the size of the pot more often than not. I know the standard is "tight is right" at the micros. So does this mean that the most profitable/least variance method of grinding the micros is to play +/- 12% of your hands? If that's generally the truth, I might as well open up 20 tables and sit on my hands.

Thanks for all the tips on BRM. I would rather be over-rolled for the stakes I'm at but then again replacing $200 isn't going to break me. I'm going to stick to $5NL for now though because for one, I haven't learned how to control tilt and two, I'm just not that good. I think I'm good but my online results let me know I'm very average.

Thanks

Bold part is obviously emphasis.

I think you get the idea now lol. Seriously though, this is why I love online poker so much. You can open up an ass ton of tables, wait for premiums, and at the micros, you will STILL GET ACTION. That's the point we are trying to emphasize. I just finished 2 sessions today. Played over 1k hands playing 6 tables of FR, and am up 5 BI's. That's not too bad imo.

I really like the "small-ball" style of poker as well, HOWEVER, at micros its really not as effective, cuz 99.999999% of ppl down here don't even know how to fold bottom pair (or a gutshot imo). So yes, open as many tables as you can play profitably (different for everyone) and wait for your nuts hands and get paid.

There is an excellent starting hand chart in the articles section of the site. It's pretty hard to miss it's labeld 19 starting hands. Obviously you can play more than these 19 as you see fit, but these are going to be the bread and butter hands for you at micros.

Hope that helps you out,

Dustin

[dranger7070]

wtf I want a trademark on my name!

Jealousy imo

[Airles™]

wtf I want a trademark on my name!

Jealousy imo

Damn, only my 3rd post and they're already envious.

I've read that 19-hand article. If I'm not mistaken it was written by some douchebag named Anthony. It's not a bad strategy to follow but opening up in LP when its folded to you is a must, stakes be damned. I'm always open to suggestions and experimentation though while I'm eternally grinding the micros.

[givememyleg]

the TM is ballin

welcome to ftr

[Airles™]

Thanks for the welcome. This place is already way more friendly than 2p2.

Feel free to add me to your IM below if any of you ever wanna chat.

[kb coolman]

Thanks for the welcome. This place is already way more friendly than 2p2.

Wait until the freerolls roll around and all the noobie post whores show up.

And you never got to meet spoon. Awesome poker player? Yes. Friendly? notsomuch.

[animal_chin]

wtf I want a trademark on my name!

Jealousy imo

Damn, only my 3rd post and they're already envious.

I've read that 19-hand article. If I'm not mistaken it was written by some douchebag named Anthony. It's not a bad strategy to follow but opening up in LP when its folded to you is a must, stakes be damned. I'm always open to suggestions and experimentation though while I'm eternally grinding the micros.

The bolded part is correct sir.

[mieczkowusc]

And you never got to meet spoon. Awesome poker player? Yes. Friendly? notsomuch.

He may not be friendly, but I would rather have someone that insults me or calls me an idiot and provides the excellent amount understanding and insight into issues that spoon does, than have someone tell me that im awesome at poker or strokes my ego when I am playing poorly.

You can say that for a lot of the mods around here through. Im sure they aren't thrilled to be answering "What boards should I cbet on?" or "How do I understand ranges?", but they still take the time to point you in the right direction.

Welcome to FTR, Airles. You are in the right place to learn.

[kb coolman]

It's safe to say you will never have your ego stroked around here, but you will get some really good advice and people will get in your face when you're wrong and not willing to learn.

And just to clarify, major props to spoon. He is sorely missed.

[Airles™]

And just to clarify, major props to spoon. He is sorely missed.

So, what happened?

[jyms]

I will tell you this. You say your a small ball micro lagg and that to me translates to spewy, no fold equity bet to see where I am at is wrong poker. Without trackers, with or without a hud you have no idea how you play or where your leaks are. I will tell you this, playing a little looser and in position is definitely right, but there is a fine line in how you ply postflop against these morons that think they are gambling. post some hands that either gave you some trouble on what to do up to the point in the hand without results or post some big winners and losers that you think you may have made a mistake.

As far as the books are concerned, what have you read. I will tell you this, if you picked them out at your local chapters without any advice, I can bet you didn't pick the ones that better players would recommend.

And lastly, do you have any BR guidelines? When do you move up or down?

[Stacks]

And just to clarify, major props to spoon. He is sorely missed.

So, what happened?

Death.. But I don't want to talk about it.

[Airles™]

I will tell you this. You say your a small ball micro lagg and that to me translates to spewy, no fold equity bet to see where I am at is wrong poker.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head there. I tend to get spewy at times, and even when I know I'm getting spewy, I still don't stop myself.

As far as the books are concerned, what have you read. I will tell you this, if you picked them out at your local chapters without any advice, I can bet you didn't pick the ones that better players would recommend.

The books on my shelf are S/S, HOH, Power HE Strategy, Ace on the River, Theory of Poker, NLHE Theory/Practice, Read em Reap, etc and of course my own personal favorite - Hellmuth's Play Poker Like the Pros

I def need to brush up on the math factor, I'll admit that much. Is there any specific chapters or inserts from these books that you'd recommend paying extra attention to... (don't say everything, grrr).

And lastly, do you have any BR guidelines? When do you move up or down?

Sure, it's not like I'm playing $50NL with only $200 in my account. I'm at $5NL now and since I have ZERO confidence in moving up anytime soon, I don't see even taking a shot at $10NL (sad I know) until I can trust myself and learn the game better. Whether that's the $300 or $500, it just depends on how I feel. Hopefully I'll be able to tell whether I'm running good or just getting lucky in spewy spots.

I think I'll look into getting PT3 here after next pay day. Probably the best thing for me right now, at least to plug my own leaks. I have no idea what most of the stats mean, so hopefully someone here could look over some session logs.

Thanks again

[Airles™]

And just to clarify, major props to spoon. He is sorely missed.

So, what happened?

Death.. But I don't want to talk about it.

Damn, sorry. I've read a few his posts from lurking around so along. From what I could tell he was a really smart dude.

[Sir Pawnalot]

Are you reviewing your own hands? It will teach you a lot about your own game- and about others.

GL

[Keith]

I think I'll look into getting PT3 here after next pay day. Probably the best thing for me right now, at least to plug my own leaks. I have no idea what most of the stats mean, so hopefully someone here could look over some session logs.

Thanks again

you get two month free trial when you download it and 14 day free trial with holdem manager

[Knytestorme]

And just to clarify, major props to spoon. He is sorely missed.

So, what happened?

Death.. But I don't want to talk about it.

level....i hope?

[Micro2Macro]

Small ball style is great for live games because it forces opponents to play pots with you, and since the buy-ins to live games are alot bigger than micro online, you'll run into alot of players who are running with scared money and won't dare make a move without a biggie since they don't want to lose that car payment etc.

As for the lowest levels online, the buy in is $2. $2 isn't scared money for many, so you'll get called down with just about anything. Therefore you will do well by adjusting to a tighter style, opening fewer pots and only coming in when you have a strong hand/positional advantage over your opponents. You sound like you have a strong image when it comes to live games, but microstakes online games don't require an image, they just require ABC get the goods bet the goods type of play. That's what brings in the coin.

Poker Tracker really helps you monitor your style to make sure you're on the right track. Ex: will tell you how often you raise vs call, your aggression, tightness/looseness etc. But that's just scratching the surface of what it can do. This would be really helpful for you to make sure you're on the right track while adjusting to the online game.

GL at the tables and welcome to the forum.

[kb coolman]

And just to clarify, major props to spoon. He is sorely missed.

So, what happened?

Death.. But I don't want to talk about it.

level....i hope?

Self-imposed FTR death penalty. Read the locked threads in the Feedback forum.

[Airles™]

And just to clarify, major props to spoon. He is sorely missed.

So, what happened?

Death.. But I don't want to talk about it.

level....i hope?

Self-imposed FTR death penalty. Read the locked threads in the Feedback forum.

And here I thought the dude actually died. Sarcasm can be funny but not like that.

[Airles™]

3 hands from this afternoon... feel free pick'em apart. I threw in a hand where I felted some shorty just in case someone can find something wrong with the way I played it. Plus the stats from last couple days (which don't really mean much).

1397 hands played and saw flop:
- 66 times out of 188 while in small blind (35%)
- 102 times out of 184 while in big blind (55%)
- 158 times out of 1025 in other positions (15%)
- a total of 326 times out of 1397 (23%)

Pots won at showdown - 44 out of 81 (54%)
Pots won without showdown - 116


WTF am I doing here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($7.16)
UTG ($5.54)
Button ($13.36)
SB ($1.68)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, A
UTG calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05, SB raises to $0.25, Hero calls $0.20, UTG calls $0.20, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.80) 4, 9, 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets $0.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.15

Turn: ($1.10) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, UTG calls $0.50

River: ($2.10) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $2, Hero folds

Total pot: $2.10 | Rake: $0.10


Again, WTF am I doing?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($7.68)
Button ($13.53)
SB ($2.95)
BB ($1.53)
UTG ($6.72)
UTG+1 ($3.56)
Hero (MP1) ($4.57)
MP2 ($6.82)
MP3 ($7.12)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 10, 10
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 4 folds, SB calls $0.13, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.35) 5, 3, K (2 players)
SB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.85) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $0.20, Hero raises to $0.60, SB calls $0.40

River: ($2.05) A (2 players)
SB bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

Total pot: $2.25 | Rake: $0.10

Results in white below:
SB had K, Q (one pair, Kings).
Hero mucked 10, 10 (one pair, tens).
Outcome: SB won $2.15




Hook, Line, Sinker

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($5.47)
UTG+1 ($7.65)
MP1 ($9.79)
Hero (MP2) ($5.10)
CO ($5.86)
Button ($4.21)
SB ($10.56)
BB ($2)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A, 7
3 folds, Hero calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, 1 fold, SB calls $0.03, BB checks

Flop: ($0.20) A, Q, 6 (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, 2 folds

Turn: ($0.50) 8 (2 players)
BB bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35

River: ($1.20) K (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.40, BB raises to $1.45 (All-In), Hero calls $1.05

Total pot: $4.10 | Rake: $0.20

Results in white below:
BB had 7, A (one pair, Aces).
Hero had A, 7 (flush, Ace high).
Outcome: Hero won $3.90

[kb coolman]

hand 1: fold flop

hand 2: meh...TT has to be beat, and the river minbet is a classic trap.

hand 3: I don't like to limp from the hijack with Axs, standard flop and turn...weak river open. snap call.

Oh, and don't post results.

[dranger7070]

hand 1: fold flop

hand 2: meh...TT has to be beat, and the river minbet is a classic trap.

hand 3: I don't like to limp from the hijack with Axs, standard flop and turn...weak river open. snap call.

Oh, and don't post results.

This. I don't MIND the limp from hijack, but what is your plan if someone bumps it up to 4xbb? 6xbb? Other than that NH.

Hand 1: like he said fold flop.
Hand 2: I probly call flop, fold to turn double barrel.

[kmind]

Sigh...then will anyone else makeout with me? This is just getting ridiculous.

[Stacks]

Sigh...then will anyone else makeout with me? This is just getting ridiculous.

OMGOMGOMG... I thought you would never ask.

[kmind]

1. Fold flop
2. Turn is either a call or fold
3. Yeah you can play it this way

I'd go into more detail but you gotta start thinking and talking about ranges my man

[kmind]

Sigh...then will anyone else makeout with me? This is just getting ridiculous.

OMGOMGOMG... I thought you would never ask.

Your avatar typed that amirite?! Fml.

[Airles™]

Thanks for the feedback on the hands. Seems the general consensus is to fold the AQs from the BB from hand 1 and fold the TT on the turn from hand 2. Putting this advice into action would have saved me 31 bb. It's not the end of the world but that shit adds up.

[kfaess]

As far as discipline goes, I am struggling with the same thing in my game. Sometimes I just wait around for good cards to come, and when some finally do but I am forced to fold I occasionally get a costly bluffing impulse.

Anyways, this post has helped me with discipline and may help you:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ng-t51564.html

Also, you may want to check out Robb's newbie guide in his op thread, as this has really helped me out:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...it-t67759.html

GL

[Stacks]

Thanks for the feedback on the hands. Seems the general consensus is to fold the AQs from the BB from hand 1 and fold the TT on the turn from hand 2. Putting this advice into action would have saved me 31 bb. It's not the end of the world but that shit adds up.

Do you see why this is the "consensus" though? What made others come to this conclusion and you did not?

Fwiw, on hand number 2, I wouldn't fold the turn for the price you are given. But raising is certainly bad. This is either a call or fold on the turn. Can you tell me why raising is bad?

On hand number 3, I'm with whoever said that they don't like the limp. Open-limping is generally going to be a less than ideal play. I can think of a few reasons, but the major reason being:

Against a competent opponent your range is going to fairly easy to identify. A general open limping range will include alot of small-mid pocketpairs, suited connectors, and other suited "big" cards that can make strong flushes. These are hands that individuals realize can make very strong hands, but are relatively weak right now. Only way to combat being put on this range would be to balance your open limping range by limping things like big pairs, etc., and tbh this is going to be the least profitable way to play those type hands. So just save yourself the trouble, and improve your game, and do not open limp (unless you know it is a more profitable way to play a hand in the games you play). Save the open limps for when you misclick.

In hand 3, I would likely fold in HJ (MP3 here) the majority of the time with A7s. But, depending on table conditions, I will probably open it some % of the time. From CO, I would be opening A7s more frequently than folding it, and I would open nearly always on the BU.

As played, flop and turn are okay, although you could have profitably played it more aggressively and got it in early I believe. On the river, I would bet a bit larger to something like $0.90 or so without reads.

[Airles™]

Thanks for the well thought out reply and tips xstacks. Fold the AQ because I'm in EP with 2 people left to act.

Here's a hand I from a few minutes ago. I have 3 queens to make a straight and 9 clubs to make a flush. Not sure why I didn't shove the river here to get some value to make up for the turn call. There's only 1 card that could beat me and I doubt he had it.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($14.51)
Button ($9.81)
SB ($5)
BB ($5.45)
UTG ($10.14)
UTG+1 ($3.76)
Hero (MP1) ($4.93)
MP2 ($5.27)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J, J
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.25, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.57) A, 10, K (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35

Turn: ($1.27) 9 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.85, Hero calls $0.85

River: ($2.97) 5 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80

Total pot: $4.57 | Rake: $0.20

[dranger7070]

In all actuality I don't think that hand was played too badly. Although you aren't QUITE getting the odds to draw for the flush, the extra 3 outs for the straight make it worth it I think. Turn call is kind of speculative even though you pick up 3 more outs (non club 8's). River call or raise is fine. No guarantees that opponent doesn't have the Q.

[Stacks]

In all actuality I don't think that hand was played too badly. Although you aren't QUITE getting the odds to draw for the flush, the extra 3 outs for the straight make it worth it I think. Turn call is kind of speculative even though you pick up 3 more outs (non club 8's). River call or raise is fine. No guarantees that opponent doesn't have the Q.

ummm...

[dranger7070]

In all actuality I don't think that hand was played too badly. Although you aren't QUITE getting the odds to draw for the flush, the extra 3 outs for the straight make it worth it I think. Turn call is kind of speculative even though you pick up 3 more outs (non club 8's). River call or raise is fine. No guarantees that opponent doesn't have the Q.

ummm...

OMG IM SO STUPID lol I can't believe I just did that Sorry Airles thats WAAAAY my bad. Please ignore any and all advice I ever give to you again lol.

Thanks for pointing that out stacks

[Stacks]

No worries . Nothing wrong with that good ole' 4 straight. I play it like the nuts on numerous occasions .

spoon made around $2000 with his advice for me
best part I got it for free on irc

how dare you not call him nice he makes you fucking rich