KK preflop... How do you play it?

[Laeelin]

Simple Question (really 2 questions in one because of limit diffrences)

{This post has been removed}

[renegaderob1]

No-brainer for 50NL or less...

[Lexicon Devil]

Are you guys serious about never laying down cowboys?

I've done it once, in $100 NL. Opp has a 5% PFR.

- I bet 4x BB (Early Position)
- He raises 10x BB
- I reraise 25x BB
- He reraises 150x BB (All-in)


How can you call this? What kind of rational player makes such a deep-stacked push over a 25x reraise without AA or KK (unlikely)?

[arkana]

Just play it so you maximise your value against QQ,JJ,AK.

[Cocco_Bill]

Depends on stack sizes and reads. Against the typical tight 100NL full ring player I call here and reevaluate after the flop. If I call QQ might like his hand more and pay me off on a safe flop. If I push many players are probably folding anything but KK AA.

[Miffed22001]

oh man
i keep posting this
I cannot see a reason to fold cowboys preflop even if there are like 4 people all in in front of you (well MAYBE then)
KK is the second best starting hand in poker. You pay off AA and let anybody else pay you.

[johnny_fish]

No-brainer for 50NL or less...

[CrunchyNuts]

None of the above (I play $25NL - party network). There are some opps that I will lay down KK to pre-flop in this situation. These are the guys sittin' there with 5%VP$IP and 1%PFR. When they re-raise me here, I'm muckin'...I'd say 90% of the time they've got bullets - if that low. Only exception there is if I've been bullying them and their stack isn't too big.

Against the standard player - yes, push.

[xX zorrito Xx]

defenitely call...

the only time i'd lay it down if there are three re-raises before it gets to me... and even then i'd have to have a great read on them to lay this hand down...

also if i am the one that raised and then three re-raises are up before it gets to me then it's a no brainner for me... i lay it down... i don't have too much money in this pot to risk for one of them having AA..

[pantherhound]

take your medicine when you run into rockets and even then you still have a 1 in 4 shot of catching your set.

???!!

i voted for option 3 but it depends. i haven't laid them down preflop yet, but i could forsee a circumstance where I might.

[STIdrivr]

i dont think you can just call, you gotta raise to see where you stand. if you just call and it comes rags you can still be scared of AA or a set of any of the cards that flopped

[cryptyk]

I dont see how you just call this either. Its pretty safe to assume that AA is going to put you all in at the flop (no matter what comes) anyways, and why let 10-10 to QQ catch a set without paying handsomely for the draw?

I say push, especially at sub 100$NL where people will push AI with AQ offsuit preflop.

[Lukie]

Another KK vs AA thread. *Sigh*

In this situation, if your opponent can reraise your initial 5xBB raise with anything other then KK or AA, you know what to do. If you have a super-read on somebody that they are ONLY reraising KK/AA (AA since you hold KK), then call for set value and take their stack if there is a K high flop. However, in practice, this generally means a reraise/push.

[Lukie]

Simple Question (really 2 questions in one because of limit diffrences)

Just to note, my above post^^^ is just generally what I feel is the best play. However, without describing the exact situation, the question really has no merit. Positions? Stack sizes? Table images? Multi-way pot or HU? Reads? You get the point.

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[renegaderob1]

KK is NOT...I repeat is NOT a 'calling' hand....My God people ...turn up the heat for Christs sake...we aint playin tiddlywinks here.

90% of the fishies out there are calling off their entire stack with QQ or A/K all day long pre flop, so quit being so fucking passive... grab your nuts and shove them babies in the middle. If you run into rockets so be it....but the odds of you holding KK and your opponent holding AA is 44 to 1 (in a 6 handed game)

what are you people waiting for ???? suited Jokers ? :P

POTD

[Seabass]

Depends on my read..

{This post has been removed}

[renegaderob1]

isnt that FTR for post of the day? As in I agree wholeheartedly...

[TalentedTom]

95% of the time you push this badboy, only call if you are rereaised by a >>>>>very VERY very VERY>>>>> tight player, even then I would most likley pay him off and say "nh"

[a500lbgorilla]

if you're playing in a game where you cannot safely put your chips in with KK preflop when facing some action FIND A NEW FUCKING GAME

-'rilla

[Checkways]

KK is NOT...I repeat is NOT a 'calling' hand....My God people ...turn up the heat for Christs sake...we aint playin tiddlywinks here.

90% of the fishies out there are calling off their entire stack with QQ or A/K all day long pre flop, so quit being so fucking passive... grab your nuts and shove them babies in the middle. If you run into rockets so be it....but the odds of you holding KK and your opponent holding AA is 44 to 1 (in a 6 handed game)

what are you people waiting for ???? suited Jokers ? :P

You can call with the idea of trapping them post flop. Only KK/AA re-reraises pf so you give away your hand. However, you should only smooth call if you're willing to go all the way with this hand. You can't let an Ace flop scare you.

Personally, I voted to re-raise. But I will smooth call sometimes if I'm certain that I'll be heads up. I take some chances, I know.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Even Daniel Negreanu said he has only laid down KK pre flop 4 times his entire poker career

And at least one of those times he was wrong (opp. had QQ).

[Greedo017]

so, you all don't think that the multi-table rocks change this? you've played with a guy for 100 hands at 100NL, he's played 9% of his hands, 0% pfr, he raises 5, you reraise to 15, he reraises to 30, you seriously are going to push? and i don't buy the table selection argument, even a great table can have rocks.

oh and i saw this same type thread over in the sng forum. obviously, i am talking about cash games only. i would never ever fold kk preflop in an sng. i don't really play enough mtt's to know, but i'm doubting i'd ever do it there either. I mean in a cash game, where you have a reasonable number of hands on your opponent, you can see they clearly play consistently, and where it is potentially reasonable to put your opponent on aces with a greater than 50% accuracy (thus making it +EV to fold if this is possible).

and, just for my background, i have never folded kk preflop to a raise. I will on occasion call for whatever reason. however, i've thought about it a lot lately, and the more i think about this the more i'm totally failing to come up with a time where i was raised/reraised preflop by a tag player and he didn't have aa. the only times this has happened where my opponent didn't have aces was when he was obviously an idiot.

[Greedo017]

i just looked through a bunch of hands, ranging from 25nl to 100nl. 7 times of 220 KK hands was i ever reraised with a non-aces hands. three times they had queens, their vp$ip were 35%, 40%, and 55%. once, they had ak, their vp$ip was 35. once, someone called my ai with aq and 25%/5%, another time someone had aj and 35% vp$ip. The last time, i was reraised to 25xBB by an 18%/8%, i pushed and they folded, so i'm guessing they had qq/ak.

This is compared to 9 times that they had aces. the times they had aces varied from tight to loose, mostly tight (below 20% vp$ip).

the more i think about this, the more i think that not folding kings to a rock is just stubborn. here's a challenge, can anyone post a hand that is
-full ring
-have >50 hands on the person
-the person is playing less than 20% of hands preflop
-the person is raising less than 5%
-the person reraises/pushes preflop after you have raised or reraised.

and, those definitions are far from a rock, but that's a good starting place and i doubt anyone can even come up with that.

[renegaderob1]

Is there a way on poker tracker to find hands by seeing who went AI preflop or something? Or would I have to manually search to try to find these...

[Greedo017]

if you don't have to look manually i don't know how you do it. i looked manually but used the options they have as best i could to limit the # of hands i was looking at.

[edudlive]

KK is NOT...I repeat is NOT a 'calling' hand....My God people ...turn up the heat for Christs sake...we aint playin tiddlywinks here.

90% of the fishies out there are calling off their entire stack with QQ or A/K all day long pre flop, so quit being so fucking passive... grab your nuts and shove them babies in the middle. If you run into rockets so be it....but the odds of you holding KK and your opponent holding AA is 44 to 1 (in a 6 handed game)

what are you people waiting for ???? suited Jokers ? :P

Quoted for truth.

Granted I play mostly 25NL and some 50NL (stars) 6max, but I can only think of maybe 2-3 times I've run into aces with kings out of 20k hands

Even from the table "rocks" I find I'm usually get reraised with crap like AJs AQs and AKs/o

[Greedo017]

"Granted I play mostly 25NL and some 50NL (stars) 6max, but I can only think of maybe 2-3 times I've run into aces with kings out of 20k hands

Even from the table "rocks" I find I'm usually get reraised with crap like AJs AQs and AKs/o"

well, its a little different with 6-max, but even there, you got a hand that demonstrates this?

[STIdrivr]

i have never folded KK pre flop, i almost did a few days ago in a Sng when a guy limped during 200 blinds and this guy that was pretty tight passive just min raised the guy, i seriously almost folded but i just hoped he did it with queens but i didnt think so, so i went for it, he had aces. But there have been so many times i didnt fold it and they had Ak suited or queens

[Miffed22001]

KK is NOT...I repeat is NOT a 'calling' hand....My God people ...turn up the heat for Christs sake...we aint playin tiddlywinks here.

90% of the fishies out there are calling off their entire stack with QQ or A/K all day long pre flop, so quit being so fucking passive... grab your nuts and shove them babies in the middle. If you run into rockets so be it....but the odds of you holding KK and your opponent holding AA is 44 to 1 (in a 6 handed game)

what are you people waiting for ???? suited Jokers ?

post of the century
never ever fold KK preflop.
Pay AA
it does happen but not often!

[Greedo017]

for something so obvious that you should never fold, it seems like someone somewhere would have a hand where a rock played back at them without aces.

[Laeelin]

for something so obvious that you should never fold, it seems like someone somewhere would have a hand where a rock played back at them without aces.

Checking 34k hands of 100NL from my PT database from before I started palying 6Max...

Everything in this post is ONLY talking about at the $100NL+ full ring tables at party poker.

147 times I was given KK

Filtered to only show hands that went to showdown leaves 42 hands.

Of thoes hands, only 5 times did someone reraise me preflop (and two of them were pushes that I called)

I cut a LOT of stuff out of the hands to save space, but this is the core of all 5 of thoes hands.


***1***
Dealt to Laeelin [ Kh Ks ]
duinzigt is all-In.
Laeelin calls [$74.50].
duinzigt shows [ As, Ad ] two pairs, aces and twos.
Laeelin shows [ Kh, Ks ] two pairs, kings and twos.

***2***
Dealt to Laeelin [ Kh Kc ]
MATPAT raises [$5].
Laeelin raises [$15].
MATPAT raises [$30].
Laeelin calls [$20].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, 6s, 4s ]
MATPAT bets [$10].
Laeelin is all-In.
MATPAT calls [$68.10].
MATPAT shows [ Ac, As ] a pair of aces.
Laeelin doesn't show [ Kh, Kc ] a pair of kings.

***3***
Dealt to Laeelin [ Kh Kd ]
Laeelin raises [$5].
BJHoward raises [$8].
Laeelin raises [$20].
BJHoward is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, Qs, 4s ]
Laeelin is all-In.
BJHoward shows [ 9d, 9h ] two pairs, queens and nines.
Laeelin shows [ Kh, Kd ] a full house, Kings full of queens.

***4***
Dealt to Laeelin [ Ks Kd ]
Laeelin raises [$4].
StarbrdTack raises [$12].
Loop12 calls [$11.50].
Laeelin calls [$8].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, 3s, 6c ]
Laeelin bets [$15].
StarbrdTack raises [$55].
Laeelin is all-In.
StarbrdTack shows [ Ac, Ad ] a flush, ace high.
Laeelin doesn't show [ Ks, Kd ] a pair of kings.

***5***
Dealt to Laeelin [ Ks Kh ]
ArielSharon is all-In.
Laeelin is all-In.
Laeelin shows [ Ks, Kh ] a full house, Kings full of twos.
ArielSharon doesn't show [ Ac, Ah ] two pairs, aces and twos.


As you can see...

4 out of 5 times I was against AA, and one time it was 99.

I dont like reraising or pushing after a RERAISE or push preflop with KK in $100NL+... It's very very rare for a player to reraise preflop without the goods. At low limits, they think that even JJ and AJ are the goods, but in my experence, once you hit $100NL+ people rairly reraise preflop without AA or KK. And neither is a money making hand for you.

NOTE: This does not include hands that I was reraise and I reraised back and they folded. Thoes hands didnt make showdown so are not included...

Basically:
If you reraise a reraise preflop and get called, they probally have AA.
If you call a preflop push, they probally have AA.

Both are -EV moves IMO.

If the raise is small enough I'll call for set value, but if it's a large raise I now fold. (less than $100NL and it's a no brainer push.)

These stats are why I left Party Poker and moved to another site with weaker players. Where I play now I can push over a reraise with KK preflop. On party I couldnt.

if you're playing in a game where you cannot safely put your chips in with KK preflop when facing some action FIND A NEW FUCKING GAME

Thats why I left party :P

Even Daniel Negreanu said he has only laid down KK pre flop 4 times his entire poker career

I strongly suspect that he was talking about MTT playing, not ring. I just dont see how folding KK preflop in a MTT can be right without a really really good reason.

PS: I'd love to be proven wrong here. Please check your historys and post them! .. It's always possible that I just have had really bad luck with my reraised KK hands.

[m3laNcholy]

Up to 100NL I wasnt folding KK preflop no matter what, I was usually pushing. After a little more than 100K hands at 1/2 and lately 2/4, when holding KK, I only got reraised preflop by something else than AA about 20 times. Almost all times that the other guy was a somewhat solid player with a full 100bb stack, he had Aces.

So my strategy is something like this.

I raise KK 5bb and get re-popped to 15bb

- If the other guy is left with a stack of sth like 15bb more I push and pay off AA cause with that stack he's gonna call with anything.

- If he has a full stack I call. If I flop a set I look to destack AA or AK, I usually only take a cont bet from QQ or JJ here cause I lose them later on the hand.
If the flop is low I raise the flop to see where I stand and usually fold to a raise/push.

We have discussed this sitution already : http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=17492

PS. Laeelin we play at the same site, I think I destack you like once a day :P

B cool all.

[Laeelin]

PS. Laeelin we play at the same site, I think I destack you like once a day

:P

I still get to aggressive sometimes :P

I'm still way up though

[Kiriath]

I call. if u reraise/push out JJ QQ TT, AK. You want those hands pay of off on a low flop.

That being said I call to get my money in later, im not gonna fold unless a ace pops, then MAYBE, but even then, that just makes me think I was reraised by QQ.

Basicaly, with KK all my money go in, I just call reraises preflop and get the money in later to suck QQ JJ and TT along.

[m3laNcholy]

PS. Laeelin we play at the same site, I think I destack you like once a day

:P

I still get to aggressive sometimes :P

I'm still way up though

Just kidding m8 I know you are way up there, join in 2/4 its the same game.

And about all that KK pre-flop yada yada... the way to go is this:

There is no right thing to do so someone in here can post it and then you do that and win.

Study, discuss, argue, ask, gain experience and knowledge and PLAY BETTER POKER. Thats the way to win.

B cool.

[Fortune 500]

I gotta agree with Rippy. I'm paying off aces all day, every day. I'd need a STONE COLD READ. I'm talking like flashing neon signs and God Himself sitting at my table saying he's got aces and if I call he'll strike me dead. And even then, I might call his bluff and report them to the admins for collusion

[Greedo017]

I gotta agree with Rippy. I'm paying off aces all day, every day. I'd need a STONE COLD READ. I'm talking like flashing neon signs and God Himself sitting at my table saying he's got aces and if I call he'll strike me dead. And even then, I might call his bluff and report them to the admins for collusion

WHY? it seems that everyone in this forum even the better of the people seem to be dead set on the idea that people reraise you with crap all the time. But, I still maintain that laeelin and I have shown that when there is big action preflop and you're reraised, more than 50% of the time they have aces, and laying down to a push is the correct move. If everyone wants to accept the "GAMBOL IT UP BABY" attitude its your money not mine.

This has been discussed before, but before everyone was just like you can never trust people, never lay it down. But here laeelin and I have shown that through out experience with many thousand hands, we have been reraised with aces at a much much higher rate than any other hand, and that its silly to be getting destacked preflop by a tight player in full ring who is going crazy nuts with his reraises. i'm not going to shove it down your throats any more than this.

[Laeelin]

had KK and was reraised preflop another 2 times in the last 2 days...

Both times it was AA that reraised me.

One was against a fishy enough player that I thought she might have a much worse hand, and I lost $200 to stupidly playing the hand just because I knew that she was a bad player.

MMT, SnG, 6-Max, <100NL i can see not folding KK preflop...

but at 100NL+ full ring, never folding is -EV...

[LeFou]

I just dont see how folding KK preflop in a MTT can be right without a really really good reason.

I must be missing something, 'cause i just did this in another thread.
An MTT situation seems like the ONLY spot where you might fold your kings, i.e. if the next few eliminations mean a big change in payout.

Oh, minor correction to ripp: you set about 1 in 4, but sometimes opp sets hisher aces too. Odds of a pair-vs-pair suckout are 4.6 to 1. I'm taking those odds -- plus the odds opp doesn't have the rockets -- in almost any cash game situation.

{This post has been removed}

[Pingviini]

We have so far had clear statistics that the hands re-raising KK and calling the AI are mostly Aces. I think if you get re-raised you should gather more information by re-reraising him. I will make a raise big enough not to give any other pairs implied odds plus if my re-raise makes him go AI I am pretty sure I am beat and I will fold. He might also call with worse cards, say JJ QQ AK. These guys just arent making any plays with worse card and not that many of them are playing sneaky by just calling with AA. I have found this raising war before the flop to be a +++EV play.

[Laeelin]

I used to never fold KK preflop, the only reason I stopped is because my stats said it was loseing me monet.... I didnt think "oh, he might have AA and I might lose" I stopped because when I looked at hands that I was re-raised with preflop, over half of them are AA...


Something that happened at the table yesterday might explain why this diffrence is...

I always raise the same ammount anytime I'm going to raise preflop, and that ammount is almost always larger than the table average...

So when most are raiseing say $6-$8 preflop, I'm reraising $10-$14...

I had AKs, did a $10 raise, and someone else re-raised me to $76 ... I folded.

Then someone in chat asked: "Why did you raise so much with AA?" and he replied "I normally dont, but Laeelin raised to $10"

I think thats where the diffrence is coming from...

I raise enough preflop that it increases the odds of any reraise being AA enough to make it a -EV call.

[Lukie]

I call. if u reraise/push out JJ QQ TT, AK. You want those hands pay of off on a low flop.

That being said I call to get my money in later, im not gonna fold unless a ace pops, then MAYBE, but even then, that just makes me think I was reraised by QQ.

Basicaly, with KK all my money go in, I just call reraises preflop and get the money in later to suck QQ JJ and TT along.

So you are confident that AK will pay you off on a low flop? Same with TT-QQ? Even if you are confident that they have no sense of their overpair being no good on the flop, it is likely an overcard will flop (to them), giving them a chance to get out of the hand cheaply. Not to mention they could flop a set and while you think they are paying off your well concealed KK, they are really taking your stack.

AK is a whole different story which I don't really want to get involved in. It's a difficult hand to play to a reraise. If an A or K flop, QQ generally doesnt pay you off. If an A flops, KK doesn't pay you off. If an A flops, you are paying off AA or any PP that hit a set. Same if the K flops.

I read a post that says if you are over 50% sure that the other player has AA, then fold. I would have to disagree. Factor in the times that you are wrong. 1 in 24? times you are dealt KK, on average, the other player will have AA. The action at the table makes it much more likely. Just because someone pushes does not mean they have AA, period. Even a tight player, usually. Also factor in the size of the pot and you have about a 1 in 5 chance of a suckout.

Take this example. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero raises to 40xBB. Villain pushes all-in. Let's also say that 2 people called hero's original 4xBB raise, the blinds folded, and those callers folded to hero's rereraise. There is 10xBB. You have put 40xBB in the pot. Villain's 100BB stack is in the pot. Pot size = 150BB. You have to call 60BB. The above^^ is a very realistic situation. You have to call 60BB into a 150BB pot. You are getting 2.5:1 on your money. KK vs AA is slightly worse then 1:4. Even if your opponent shows you aces, and you still call, it is not even close to being as bad of a call as you would think.

Factor in that this kind of play by the villain can easily be made with JJ, QQ, AK, even the very unlikely KK, this is a must call IMO. If stacks are deep and you are playing against a rock, the situation may change. Know this: if you fold KK preflop fearing AA on a regular basis, you are losing money. Easily.

[Laeelin]

90% of the fishies out there are calling off their entire stack with QQ or A/K all day long pre flop, so quit being so fucking passive... grab your nuts and shove them babies in the middle. If you run into rockets so be it....but the odds of you holding KK and your opponent holding AA is 44 to 1 (in a 6 handed game)

what are you people waiting for ???? suited Jokers ? :P

BTW: Have you ever though that the reason that you are so sure that this is a bad move is because of how you play.. you play so lose that you get a lot more hands calling/reraising you than someone like me does....

[ProZachNation]

Only time to lay it down would be on the bubble to get a seat into a tournament(ie if you dont play this hand you get in for sure, but if you do and lose you wont get in if you lose.)

Also watch out for the QT offsuit reraise apperantally QT will always win according to the table I was at.

[BankItDrew]

I push in this scenerio because they are most likely going to call. Most of the time when someone re-raises my 5bb raise - they don't have American Airlines!

[BankItDrew]

Only time to lay it down would be on the bubble to get a seat into a tournament(ie if you dont play this hand you get in for sure, but if you do and lose you wont get in if you lose.)

Sounds like you play to place, try playing to win.

[Greedo017]

Only time to lay it down would be on the bubble to get a seat into a tournament(ie if you dont play this hand you get in for sure, but if you do and lose you wont get in if you lose.)

Sounds like you play to place, try playing to win.

lol

[m3laNcholy]

[quote="Lukie"]

Take this example. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero raises to 40xBB. Villain pushes all-in. Let's also say that 2 people called hero's original 4xBB raise, the blinds folded, and those callers folded to hero's rereraise. There is 10xBB. You have put 40xBB in the pot. Villain's 100BB stack is in the pot. Pot size = 150BB. You have to call 60BB. The above^^ is a very realistic situation. You have to call 60BB into a 150BB pot. You are getting 2.5:1 on your money. KK vs AA is slightly worse then 1:4. Even if your opponent shows you aces, and you still call, it is not even close to being as bad of a call as you would think.

Yes math says you have to call, but thats cause you made a play that pot commited you to call with any hand if he pushes AKA a bad play.

"Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain re-raises to 14xBB. HERO RE-RE-RAISES to 40xBB."

You dont wanna analyse the advantages/disadvantages of that play with KK...

Take this example. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero calls.
Flop has a K. Hero checks. Villain bets 20BB , hero calls. Hero checks they turn, Villain bets once more and gets pott commited and therefore destacked.


Or take this one. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero calls.
Flop is rags. Hero checks. Villain bets 20BB. Hero raises to 40BB. Villain calls/pushes. Hero is 100% sure his KK is beat and is done with the hand.


Or take this one. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero re-re-raises to 25BB. Villain pushes. Hero is done with the hand.
Villain calls. Hero is really hoping for a K high flop.

[TalentedTom]

Every day I see people moving all in for 100BB's with AKs, AQs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ TT and sometimes the odd KQs + AJs
I would say in general, you will win over 60% of the time by going all in preflop with KK.

Only in a vey deepstack situation or against a multi-tabling rock can you fold.

[m3laNcholy]

Every day I see people moving all in for 100BB's with AKs, AQs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ TT and sometimes the odd KQs + AJs
I would say in general, you will win over 60% of the time by going all in preflop with KK.

At what stakes? What was the pre flop action?

Dont get confused here. If some opens the pot for all his 100bb stack, I am calling any day with KK maybe even QQ.

But he RAISES, I RE-RAISE him and he PUSHES, sry I am not.

[Lukie]

[quote="m3laNcholy"]

Take this example. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero raises to 40xBB. Villain pushes all-in. Let's also say that 2 people called hero's original 4xBB raise, the blinds folded, and those callers folded to hero's rereraise. There is 10xBB. You have put 40xBB in the pot. Villain's 100BB stack is in the pot. Pot size = 150BB. You have to call 60BB. The above^^ is a very realistic situation. You have to call 60BB into a 150BB pot. You are getting 2.5:1 on your money. KK vs AA is slightly worse then 1:4. Even if your opponent shows you aces, and you still call, it is not even close to being as bad of a call as you would think.

Yes math says you have to call, but thats cause you made a play that pot commited you to call with any hand if he pushes AKA a bad play.

"Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain re-raises to 14xBB. HERO RE-RE-RAISES to 40xBB."

You dont wanna analyse the advantages/disadvantages of that play with KK...

Take this example. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero calls.
Flop has a K. Hero checks. Villain bets 20BB , hero calls. Hero checks they turn, Villain bets once more and gets pott commited and therefore destacked.


Or take this one. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero calls.
Flop is rags. Hero checks. Villain bets 20BB. Hero raises to 40BB. Villain calls/pushes. Hero is 100% sure his KK is beat and is done with the hand.


Or take this one. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero re-re-raises to 25BB. Villain pushes. Hero is done with the hand.
Villain calls. Hero is really hoping for a K high flop.

First of all, you messed up the quote at the top^^^^.

"Yes math says you have to call, but thats cause you made a play that pot commited you to call with any hand if he pushes AKA a bad play."
- Bad play that you are committed to call with any hand being a bad play in this situation? I think not. I don't have any hand, you have KK, the second nuts. If you have 27o, you can lay it down, as it's almost certain you are up against an overpair and only getting 2.5:1.

"You dont wanna analyse the advantages/disadvantages of that play with KK..."
- You are right, I hate threads that discuss KK v AA situations. But somehow I got in this mess, so I might as well discuss it..

"Take this example. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero calls.
Flop has a K. Hero checks. Villain bets 20BB , hero calls. Hero checks they turn, Villain bets once more and gets pott commited and therefore destacked."
- This does not prove your point. It proves mine. In this situation, most of the money does not go in preflop. You let an underpair get out of the hand cheap on the flop. AA GETS ALL THEIR MONEY IN PREFLOP AND YOU SUCK OUT ON THEM. YOU TAKE THEIR STACK. Yes, KK can win vs AA when all the money goes in preflop. This is one of the fundamental reasons why its generally a horrible move to fold KK preflop.

"Or take this one. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero calls.
Flop is rags. Hero checks. Villain bets 20BB. Hero raises to 40BB. Villain calls/pushes. Hero is 100% sure his KK is beat and is done with the hand."
- I can make villain's play here with an unpaired 27o. Also, how do you know you are 100% sure your KK is beat? You are now VERY WELL priced into this hand. You are only in this situation b/c of very poor play preflop and on the flop. Smooth calling a reraise preflop and min-raising a bet on a rag flop? As played, Villain can really have QQ, JJ, a fishy AK, etc. I understand in this situation you are usually beat.
- If he calls, could it be because your min-raise gave him 4.5:1 on his money? Very likely. Rag boards have draws on them. He can correctly chase overcards in this situation. You get the point..
- Similar situation with the push. Could be a fishy AK, JJ, QQ, etc. I have heard discussion of getting paid off on later streets holding KK by these hands, and while I don't agree with the philosophy (behind doing this instead of showing uber-strength preflop), this IS the situation where it would happen.

"Or take this one. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero re-re-raises to 25BB. Villain pushes. Hero is done with the hand.
Villain calls. Hero is really hoping for a K high flop."

- If you raise to 4xBB, and get raised to 14xBB, why are you rereraising to 25xBB? This has nothing to do with your hand, this is just bad poker. Ya let's define our starting hand and give somebody else 4:1 on their money to flop a set with full stack implied odds, or get out on the flop VERY cheaply. Not discussing this any further.

[TalentedTom]

Every day I see people moving all in for 100BB's with AKs, AQs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ TT and sometimes the odd KQs + AJs
I would say in general, you will win over 60% of the time by going all in preflop with KK.

At what stakes? What was the pre flop action?

Dont get confused here. If some opens the pot for all his 100bb stack, I am calling any day with KK maybe even QQ.

But he RAISES, I RE-RAISE him and he PUSHES, sry I am not.

I play NL 100, next week or 2 weeks from now Ill be NL200, from my experience this play is +EV.

In terems of preflop I generally reraise Villian 3x their raise unless I have a good read on them and I feel I will make more profit flat calling (less than 10% of the time) I will do this reraise with AA, KK, QQ, and AK ( and sometimes JJ/TT, against the LAGS ) regardless of how many people enter the pot, and if someone fires back at me I will only push with AA/KK.
If I am first to act from early position and a SUPER-TIGHT reraises me I will still rerase them but I may fold to an all in re-rasise. Super-tight's are VERY rare however, by this I mean someone who will fold AQ preflop, and never does continuation bets after missing. This situation has not occured in over 2 months, so I dont really consider it as a legit argument for folding KK.



The worst immaginable play is calling. Raise or fold is the general NL rule, unless you are trapping. People who think their opponent has AK and will only push if the ace does not hit the flop are much to passive for NL. Anything less than or equal to 200NL the idiots FAR outweigh the good players, there are too many LAGS, people with fancy play sindrome, calling stations and flat out idiots. If you have KK and a man reraises you with QQ and you flat call, flop comes ace high, you will either lose to his contination bet or you will check it down and kick yourself in the nuts after you see showdown, same thing applies when your up against JJ and the occasional TT or lower.

I would also consider folding if the pot was raised, rerasied, and reraised again before it was my turn but this situation is so rare that it can be discredited. It would be like asking how to play AK on a AAK flop... its a meaningless question because the sitation is so rare you will probably have forgotten the advice you were offered when it occurs again.

ps. Excuse me if my spelling and sentance structure is not 100%. I'm an engineer, we don't read literature.

[TalentedTom]

I also discussed this with some guys that I used to play with who currently play 2000NL (hookz, and hazards21) they agree that unless a really unusual sitation presents itself you push this baby.

hookz and hazards say he goes broke with KK every time , you can check out his hand history http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?page=list&user=Hookz
This dude moved from 25NL to 2000NL in 6 months.

[Lukie]

ps. Excuse me if my spelling and sentance structure is not 100%. I'm an engineer, we don't read literature.

Nice post by the way.