[quote="m3laNcholy"]
Quote Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote Originally Posted by Kiriath
Take this example. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero raises to 40xBB. Villain pushes all-in. Let's also say that 2 people called hero's original 4xBB raise, the blinds folded, and those callers folded to hero's rereraise. There is 10xBB. You have put 40xBB in the pot. Villain's 100BB stack is in the pot. Pot size = 150BB. You have to call 60BB. The above^^ is a very realistic situation. You have to call 60BB into a 150BB pot. You are getting 2.5:1 on your money. KK vs AA is slightly worse then 1:4. Even if your opponent shows you aces, and you still call, it is not even close to being as bad of a call as you would think.
Yes math says you have to call, but thats cause you made a play that pot commited you to call with any hand if he pushes AKA a bad play.

"Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain re-raises to 14xBB. HERO RE-RE-RAISES to 40xBB."

You dont wanna analyse the advantages/disadvantages of that play with KK...

Take this example. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero calls.
Flop has a K. Hero checks. Villain bets 20BB , hero calls. Hero checks they turn, Villain bets once more and gets pott commited and therefore destacked.


Or take this one. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero calls.
Flop is rags. Hero checks. Villain bets 20BB. Hero raises to 40BB. Villain calls/pushes. Hero is 100% sure his KK is beat and is done with the hand.


Or take this one. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero re-re-raises to 25BB. Villain pushes. Hero is done with the hand.
Villain calls. Hero is really hoping for a K high flop.
First of all, you messed up the quote at the top^^^^.

"Yes math says you have to call, but thats cause you made a play that pot commited you to call with any hand if he pushes AKA a bad play."
- Bad play that you are committed to call with any hand being a bad play in this situation? I think not. I don't have any hand, you have KK, the second nuts. If you have 27o, you can lay it down, as it's almost certain you are up against an overpair and only getting 2.5:1.

"You dont wanna analyse the advantages/disadvantages of that play with KK..."
- You are right, I hate threads that discuss KK v AA situations. But somehow I got in this mess, so I might as well discuss it..

"Take this example. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero calls.
Flop has a K. Hero checks. Villain bets 20BB , hero calls. Hero checks they turn, Villain bets once more and gets pott commited and therefore destacked."
- This does not prove your point. It proves mine. In this situation, most of the money does not go in preflop. You let an underpair get out of the hand cheap on the flop. AA GETS ALL THEIR MONEY IN PREFLOP AND YOU SUCK OUT ON THEM. YOU TAKE THEIR STACK. Yes, KK can win vs AA when all the money goes in preflop. This is one of the fundamental reasons why its generally a horrible move to fold KK preflop.

"Or take this one. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero calls.
Flop is rags. Hero checks. Villain bets 20BB. Hero raises to 40BB. Villain calls/pushes. Hero is 100% sure his KK is beat and is done with the hand."
- I can make villain's play here with an unpaired 27o. Also, how do you know you are 100% sure your KK is beat? You are now VERY WELL priced into this hand. You are only in this situation b/c of very poor play preflop and on the flop. Smooth calling a reraise preflop and min-raising a bet on a rag flop? As played, Villain can really have QQ, JJ, a fishy AK, etc. I understand in this situation you are usually beat.
- If he calls, could it be because your min-raise gave him 4.5:1 on his money? Very likely. Rag boards have draws on them. He can correctly chase overcards in this situation. You get the point..
- Similar situation with the push. Could be a fishy AK, JJ, QQ, etc. I have heard discussion of getting paid off on later streets holding KK by these hands, and while I don't agree with the philosophy (behind doing this instead of showing uber-strength preflop), this IS the situation where it would happen.

"Or take this one. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero re-re-raises to 25BB. Villain pushes. Hero is done with the hand.
Villain calls. Hero is really hoping for a K high flop."

- If you raise to 4xBB, and get raised to 14xBB, why are you rereraising to 25xBB? This has nothing to do with your hand, this is just bad poker. Ya let's define our starting hand and give somebody else 4:1 on their money to flop a set with full stack implied odds, or get out on the flop VERY cheaply. Not discussing this any further.