Noobie's First 5k Hands at 10NL: Guide, Links and Advice

[Robb]

Noobie's First 5k Hands of NL10

I got my Dad interested in online poker more than a year ago. I have turned into a winning player. He's still a losing player - I think. He doesn't play one level of SnG's long enough or keep good enough records to really know himself, except by how often he rebuys, which I haven't asked about. I feel guilty getting him into poker and having him lose money. But I think he spends less on poker than he does on golf. He sucks at both games, but enjoys them. It's recreation. I told him to switch from SnG's to cash, start grinding at 10nl. Make a few bucks. He said, "Well, teach me how to play the micros, and I'll do it." We live in different towns, so I decided to write down some thoughts for a noobie. That's where this guide started. I have been working on this for four months. Revising. Editing. Planning to post it on FTR when it's good. Hoping Dad'll read it and apply it.

I have posted a Cliff Notes version that includes all the links and an outline in my operation thread.

Intro

I sucked at poker for a year because I played too many hands. I was that 40/25/6 maniac, just goofing off with a half-hobby, half-entertainment approach that specialized in spewing chips and burning bankroll. I lost $350 that first year. When I got serious in October 2007, began studying and got disciplined, the first thing I needed to do was tighten way up. Like sexually repressed teenage virgin tight. 10/8 tight. Most NLH noobies should start right there: Play 10% of your hands - or less. Dad staked me $100, and I started fresh. I read Aokrongly's 19-Hand Guide and committed to only playing those hands. I modified his approach to be more aggressive and positionally aware, which fit my game. But I practiced opening range discipline and learned two things:

1. Poker is hella fun when you're ahead - in hands and in bankroll.
2. Tight poker is safe, solid, profitable poker.

I was arrogant. I thought learning the basic mechanics would be easy: opening raises, 3bets, flop bets. And after a couple of thousand hands, it is easy. But I needed five thousand hands of super-tight, play-premium-cards-only poker to learn the deal. I won consistently and paid Dad back. Playing tight could help you win (more), too.

I realized AOK's guide was limited: ignored position, suited cards, effective stack sizes and a whole bunch of stuff. But I was winning, playing just 19 hands. I started to slowly add things to my game. I read Renton's three part guide. He writes mainly about FR, but I adapted his concepts both for my own style and for 6max. And here's an early lesson that will help you understand the spirit of these posts: think for yourself. I never actually followed AOK's 19-hand guide, except for playing only those hands. And I couldn't follow Renton's exactly, since I was mostly playing 6max. But the concepts are good poker concepts. Try to understand why they say what they say. Don't blindly obey some guide.

What will this "guide" do for you? It lays out a "plan of study." I'm a math professor, so I'm writing a "syllabus" for how to use FTR to improve your game, complete with suggested reading, HW assignments like posting HH's and replying to threads, and a focal point for each thousand hands you play. You'll go from a 19-hand agro-nit style to Renton's positionally aware, more open game. You'll have a solid range of hands that you'll play and some idea what to do on the flop. You'll be winning what Fnord calls "2 street bingo." But that's what 10nl is. I am posting the first 5k hands of this guide to see the reaction. I'll post another 5k later if it seems like a good idea. Or if Dad actually reads this, gets active at FTR, and wants to learn more.


Assumptions

1. You must practice bankroll management. Read Bankr0ll Management 101, Spoon's Bankr0ll Management Rant, and Spoon's Bankr0ll Managemet for People with Balls.

2. You must sign up for rakeback. Read FTR's official Rakeback post and info, Spoony's Importance of RB and Bonuses, and my own Holy Mother of God - Rake Sucks.

3. You need to get $300 to a big site, and spend another $55-85 on PokerTracker or Holdem Manager (link for HM).

4. You must track EVERY SINGLE HAND of poker you play.

5. Focus on one poker idea at a time.

Respected poker author and teacher Mike Caro tells his students to work on only one thing per session. Keep things simple. This guide suggests a series of "things to learn" starting with a tight-aggressive (TAGG) style based on AOkrongly's strategy guide and transitioning to a more positionally aware Tight Aggressive style as advocated by Renton Renton's 169 Hand NLHE Ring Strategy: Preflop (1st in a 3 part series). Both are better players than me, and I used their guides to learn how to beat this game in the post-UIEGA era. You can too.

Here's the key. What works for me best is to read lots of material, mostly on FTR, then use PokerTracker to analyze my game. I think about what's working well for me, and I do more of it. I find problem spots, and I do that stuff less. I've learned not to make too many changes at once. I just work on one or two things at a time, see how it goes. Here's an outline that, in hindsight, would have worked well. I've done all of these things, but not in any coherent order. If I had it to do over again, my initial 20,000 hands of poker would have resembled this guide. I learned to beat NL10 post-UIEGA in about 15k hands. By 20k, I was certain I was a winning player. By 40k, I had doubled my win rate over my 20k level. You can, too.

When I committed to grinding instead of playing around, I won. I'm just writing down the major lessons I've learned that have made me a money player at NL10. This guide won't likely make you a great NL50 player, or a great SnG/MTT player, or anything else. But it should put you in the realm of winning NL10 players.

If you're curious why someone like me who sucks at poker is "qualified" to write a Beginner's Guide, read this: Why listen to Robb's thoughts about poker?. If you want to know why I am writing this novel-length post, read this: Why I Write About Poker.

Good luck at the tables!


Hands 0 to 1,000 - Playing Tight-is-Right Poker

So let's talk about ABC poker. Discipline. Throw away all mediocre hands preflop. Autofold A9, QT, and 76s and all the rest of the crap you don't know how to play.

A = Aggressive. Bet, raise or fold. Don't call. If you can't fold, then raise. If you can't raise, then fold. But don't call.

B = Best Hand Preflop. Play EXTREMELY tight so that you're often ahead on the flop. Makes life MUCH easier.

C = Comfortable Playing for Stacks. But just A & B will do for the first 5k hands. Seriously.

I began with AOK's 19-Hand Guide, and played that tight. Over a month or six weeks, I moved toward Renton's guide, opening up in position and getting more aggressive. Your first assignment is play a thousand hands uber-tight, 19-hands tight. You'll add in more hands later. Trust me, just playing the top NLH 19 will make you profitable, even at 6max.

AOK's 19-Hand Guide is one of the most well known and controversial posts ever on FTR. Adherent's loved it and lived by it. Detractors excoriated it. It had problems, sure, mostly because it was so short and simple that it could only help the most clueless of beginner's. But it helped me. I tightened up, played only 19 hands, and learned the game. And started winning.

I never actually followed AOK's guide. It was too passive. But I still have to thank AOK. His guide got me playing tight enough to win. Here's my 21-hand modified starting guide, the one that first started winning me money at a 3 ptBB/100 rate at 10nl:

UTG: Open pp's, AK and AQs+.
UTG+1: Add AQ and AJs
CO: Add AJ, ATs, and KQ
BTN: Add A9s and KJ

Never limp. Open them all for raises, 15 hands UTG and 21 hands (AOK's 19 plus ATs and A9s) on the button. It worked for me. For full ring, I play the first 4 or 5 positions like 6-max UTG, then add hands toward the button as above. Open raise 22 - 88, even from EP.

Open each of these for a standard raise of 3.5 x BB (4x fine, too). If only limpers have entered the pot, bet right out, adding 1 BB per limper to your standard opening raise. When considering your first action after someone else has raised, fold the Broadway hands and aces that are AQ and worse, call with AK and all pp's QQ and less, and reraise with AA and KK. If your reraise with AA or KK is reraised, call all-in or shove all-in yourself. In the blinds, play the same hands as UTG, although you do get catapulted into hands with garbage when everyone limps and you're in the Big Blind.

The key to postflop play is aggression: bet, raise or fold. Have a good reason to call, and a plan for the rest of the hand. After the flop, bet at least two-thirds the pot every time you have at least a pair, except with pp's 88 and lower. With these hands, bet out when (a) there is only one villain, (b) when there is only one overcard to your pair, and (c) whenever you are last to act and everyone else has checked. With hands like AK, AQ, and KQ that have missed the flop, bet out at least two-thirds the pot whenever you have two overcards and only one opponent, or whenever 1 or 2 villains have checked and you're last to act.

Try to plan for the turn before betting the flop. Your basic plan for the flop is to bet at least two-thirds the pot (a) any time you connect with the flop, (b) any time everyone checks to you and you’re last to act - even with air, (c) any time you have a mid-high pair (99, TT, JJ, QQ) with only one overcard on the board, and (d) any time you have AK or AQs with 2 overcards to the board and – for the AQs – at least a 3 flush. Everything else we’re checking and folding. We’re folding anything worse than TPTK to a reraise, and we’re probably going broke with 2 pair or better if someone has a better hand.

This isn't supposed to be comprehensive, so I won't cover every situation. Bet on the flop and turn when you feel like you're ahead. Fold when you feel like you're behind. Learn to trust your reads, and don't donkey-call extra streets when you know you're beaten. With these starting hands, you'll find yourself ahead after most flops against most villains in most games. So usually you'll need to bet. Avoid calling. Try to raise or fold, using calls as a last resort. Check if you have to, but only if you're ready to fold to a bet. If you'd call a bet after checking, you're most likely better off simply betting yourself. Don't get cute when you hit a big hand (set or better). Bet it, and hope someone can call you. Always bet at least half the pot on your monsters.

This will have you playing 8.3% of all hands dealt, plus the occasional all-limp-to-the-BB hand. So you'll be a 10/8 ubernit, super-tight/aggressive. You'll have a chance to learn how to play the basic hands against different villains. Did I mention that, post flop, to always bet at least half the pot?

Good luck at the tables.


Assignments

HW: Post 3 hands in the Beginner's Forum, hands that gave you trouble, not AA or a flopped set.
Required Reading: Zook's Year One Discipline Post and Biondino's Some Thoughts for Beginners.
Think About This: Which hands make the most money at 10nl?
Suggested Reading: Where the $$ are at Micro NLH


Hands 1,000 to 2,000: Betting the Flop

There's this cool thing about poker. Your opponents can't see your cards until show down, and only if they pay your price. Scenario 1: Hero has AK, flop comes KT2 rainbow. This is perfect for Hero who leads right out with a two-thirds of the pot bet. This is a value bet. Hero is very likely to be ahead, and anyone who wants to see another card will not be getting the right pot odds for the call. Scenario 2: Hero has AK, flop comes QT2 rainbow. Hero usually should bet the second flop with a two-thirds of the pot bet, just like before. Villain knows (or should) that Hero plays TAGG poker, so AQ, KQ and QQ are pretty likely as a group. Villain needs to be able to be TPTK to continue since a big draw is difficult on this board. The flop bet in the 2nd scenario is called a Continuation Bet, or a cbet for short. And if they're not abused, cbets will take down a huge percentage of pots, certainly enough pots to pay for the times when some set farmer takes us to value town.

The key for betting the flop is to have your value bets and cbets be indistinguishable. To do that requires an understanding of the different amounts of value made hands have. TPTK is often the "flop nuts," and is almost always worth betting. But it's vulnerable. A single pair does often hold up for a win, but if we face consistent pressure, we're likely beat. Overpairs like KK on a T65 board also have a lot of value. Two pair hands are strong, but there's a lot of ways for two pair to lose. So these valuable but vulnerable hands will need to be bet hard on the flop, and then carefully thereafter. Sets and better are the opposite, though straights are often vulnerable to backdoor flushes. In general, sets or better are pretty likely to hold up, so we can play them more confidently, betting for value on 2 or 3 streets.

One of the major leaks for 10nl players is that they fire a PSB only when they're strong. When they're weak or on a draw, the bet half the pot or less. And they slow play sets and monsters. With betting patterns like this, we just step out of villain's way until we have a great hand and then stack him. Or we run over him when he bets weak. Don't do this.

It feels weird when you first try it, but you should bet your weak hands three-fourths pot or even full pot-sized bets (PSB). And bet your strong hands half to two-thirds pot. The difference is that you DON'T want your weak hands called down, so you bet big on the flop. You DO want action on value bets, so you make them smaller. But again, betting in this "backwards" way is just as obvious to someone paying attention. The key for a beginner is to pick a value bet / cbet size. I suggest two-thirds. Then your bets are impossible to tell apart.

Still, it's not optimal. We should generally be betting smaller when we want calls and bigger when we want folds. So we have to mix it up. Try something like the following chart explains. There's no perfect way to bet on the flop, and many times experienced players will bet more or less



The chart matches up various big hands with different kinds of cbets and bets and draws. The percentages for TPWK (top pair, weak kicker), weak pair and cbets indicate that we aren't betting these situations all the time. Learning when to bet these hands will come with experience. For now, your best protection is playing super-tight poker so that when you connect at all with the board, you're likely to be winning.

You should study pot odds, and we'll cover it later if I write all the parts I'm planning to for this guide. A key concept to understand, however, is that any hand with 9+ outs is probably worth felting (betting all-in) on the flop. Why? If your outs are solid, then you have nearly a 40% chance to improve. And you have fold equity, the chance that the other guy will fold something like TPTK instead calling for his entire stack. So you win often enough that, combined with the times everyone folds, you come out ahead. So you should be betting your big draws, any flush draw and any open-ended straight draw (OESD). You should also bet AJ on a T87 flop. The 3 aces are outs, plus you have the four 9's to make your gutshot. So 7 outs. And the J's might be outs, too, but it pays not to count on them. So we have 8 outs or so, and a better than 32% chance of hitting one of them by the river. Smaller draws, say 6 or 7 outs, are worth a bet at times, too. Overcards like AK on a J94 flop are usually outs, but most people think of betting here as a cbet. Betting your JJ on a KT4 flop is DEFINITELY a cbet. You probably don't have any outs except the two J's.

That's a lot to think about, but it's pretty simple, really. Bet vulnerable made hands three-fourths pot or more. Bet sets and monsters two-thirds or less. Bet your big draws two-thirds like your cbets. Watch your opponents carefully. Pounce on weakness when they show it. Duck their strength when they show. At these stakes, bets generally mean what they "say." For the turn and river, keep betting at least half the pot if you think you're still ahead. Avoid calling. Fold if you think you're beat. If you have to call, try to only call one street.

And please understand this final point: aggressive play on the flop will be mostly correct, but ONLY IF you play TIGHT preflop.

Good luck at the tables!


Assignments

HW: Post 2 hands in the Beginner's Forum and reply to at least 2 other threads.
Required Reading: Spoony's When to Cbet and When not to Cbet.
Think About This: Hero is dealt AJ, raises preflop from the BTN, flop comes Qxx rainbow. Single villain checks. What should Hero do? Why?
Suggested Reading: Newbie Circle of Death and Starting Over.


Hands 2,000 to 3,000: The Poker of Position.

The idea is now to exploit position by adding AT, A9, KJ and QJ to your playing range from the button. All other positions play we'll open and play as above. For these 4 hands, we're opening for a raise any time the action is unraised to us, including up to 2 limpers (fold to raises before we act. We'll make our standard opening raise, and we'll follow with a two-thirds pot-size cbet any time it's checked to us on the flop or any time we connect with the flop. From there, we fold if we're getting heat and haven't improved, and we continue to bet if we've connected solidly with the flop and think we're ahead. Here's how it works.

Having position means you are last to act in any given betting round. Being the last to act confers 3 main advantages:

1. You can read your opponent's bet for strength or weakness before committing chips
2. You can bluff at pots when it's checked to you.
3. You can check behind and get a free card.

Mathematically, an unpaired hand like AK connects with the flop about one-third of the time. Most 10nl hands don't go past the flop. Someone raises preflop, gets called and bets on the flop. Since the opponents knows 5 of 7 cards that will make up his final hand, he generally has to fold if he missed the flop. Betting last when your opponent has pretty obviously missed the flop lets you take down pots with almost any two cards (ATC). Since you're playing TAGG poker, you'll generally have some outs when you make this play. Don't just try running over the table from the BTN, yet, especially not with junk. But take some shots with cbets from position after you've raise preflop, and you'll begin to discover how vital position is.

When opponents bet out on the flop, calling should be your last option. If you hit the flop, you should generally be raising. If you missed, you should generally fold. Calling makes sense with some big draws and correct pot odds. But some bets are obviously weak, like a min-bet. Be careful, some folks try to be tricky with monsters and min-bet them. Note who these players are, and don't raise them. Don't even call them down without some hope of making a big hand.

Checking behind is great, especially with a draw. But the draw needs some deception, or you'll be too easily read for strength. I bet out on flush draws (9 outs) since the 3rd flush card really shuts down the action, but I might peel one off (check behind) with a well disguised straight draw. Example would be KJ on a T97 rainbow board (known as a double gut shot straight draw, or double gutter). I also check behind (sometimes) with overcards, a big pair like QQ when an Ace hits the flop, or with a gutshot. It can often pay to take a free card and wait to see what develops. I also raise frequently in both situations I just outlined. Experience will soon be your guide.

Any of these 3 advantages, by themselves, would be well worth widening our range of playable hands. Together, they create more poker power than the actual cards we hold. Doyle Brunson put it this way in his original Super System book (approximate quote): "If I could play the button every hand, I could beat most any poker player WITHOUT LOOKING AT MY CARDS."

In these thousand hands, focus on position and how much it matters. Realize how easy it is to play a hand like A9 from the BTN. If you don't know how hard it is to play A9 from UTG and have some money to burn, try it a dozen times. Weak aces are the poster children for positional poker. They play easy from the BTN and impossible from UTG. Also realize that these junkier hands are best when they can pick up uncontested pots early in the hand, either preflop or with a well-timed and sizable cbet. They can lose lots of chips pretty easily, so in general avoid playing big pots with them, and give up on the turn/river if you opponent won't fold.

In the next several 1k hand groups, we'll add even more hands to your BTN range and a few to your cutoff (CO) range. The goal is to get pretty close to Renton's guide, but to do it incrementally so you have time to adjust to each new group of hands we add. Each type plays differently. I've chosen to start you off with big cards hands which have enough high card value to be worth a cbet in most situations. We'll add suited Ace-small, suited connectors (sc's), suited 1-gappers, Ace-small and some weaker Kings. But trust me, you should be willing to play at least 1k hands with your expanded range before adding more. Focus on how these hands play on the flop and in contested pots. Learn when to lay them down, and when to move in.

Assignments

HW: Go to the Beginner's Digest and pick an article to read that will help you with one of your biggest leaks.
Range: Add AT, A9, KJ and QJ to your BTN range - raise them if it's unraised to you, fold them to preflop raises.
Required Reading: Spoony's Blind Stealing 101 and Renton's 169-Hand SS NLHE Ring Strategy, Part I of III.
Think About This: Two villains, one is LAGG (40/25/4), one is Loose-passive (40/4/1.2). Both have 120bb stacks. If you have to choose, which one do you want on your LEFT, and why?
Suggested Reading: Les Worm's Thoughts for Beginners and Pyroxene's You cannot make someone fold.


Hands 3,000 to 4,000: Reads and Profiles

Our opponents fall into four general categories, Loose-Passive, Loose-Aggressive (LAGG), Tight-Passive and Tight-Aggressive (TAGG). Most FTR folks suggest Hero play TAGG poker. In villains, we like both Loose categories though for different reasons, and Tight-Passives (also known as weak-tight) don't give us much trouble. At some point, you'll have to learn to deal with other TAGG's.

Tight or Loose refers to the hands they play preflop. Tight players generally play about 10% of their hands, or less (15% or less at 6max). Loose players tend to play more than 20% of their hands (30% or more at 6max). Aggressive vs. passive means how often opponents bet or raise compared to how often they call. The formula for Aggression Factor (AF) is:

AF = ( Bets + Raises) / Calls

We don't need to calculate it. Just know this. Having an AF of 2 (twice as many bets/raises as calls) is a reasonable breaking point. AF's > 2 are generally aggressive, and AF's < 2 are generally passive.

You can use a HUD to gather this information precisely, or you can do the analogue "note taking" version. Simply mark on a piece of paper during the first 30 hands while you're at the table which villains open and how they play postflop. Mark when they limp or call preflop, and mark when they bet/raise or call postflop. If a villain bets or raises about twice as often as he calls (AF = 2), think of that as "honest" or neutral aggression, betting good hands and folding bad hands. Villains who bet or raise three times more often than calling (or more, AF > 3), they are aggressive and are often firing cbets, bluffs or semi-bluffs. Villains who bet or raise about as often as they call are passive (AF ~ 1), typically calling stations who chase bad hands and don't bet their good hands often enough.

Once you have a read, here are some general suggestions for attacking these players.

Loose-Passive. Keep you're opening range tight, and value bet big. Avoid cbetting and semi-bluffing with marginal holdings. This player doesn't bet too much and will give you free looks at the next street. When he bets out, watch out. He probably has something.

Loose-Aggressive. In position, this player will value bet your hands for you. Don't be afraid to call his bets and rr with solid made hands liks TPTK. Out of position, fire your own cbets and semi-bluffs relentlessly. Aggressive players rarely call. They will rr with a hand and fold with air. If they rr, you're likely beat (unless he's a total maniac - use your poker brain, here). When they call - watch out! Could be a monster or a big draw. But they will fold a good bit and wait for a better spot to attack when you bet right out. When you have a hand oop, generally bet right out. Sometimes, you can check to him and let him bet a big hand for you, but you run a risk any time you slow play. Make sure it's a good hand and that villain is likely to fire a bet (AF > 4).

Tight-Aggressive. Not much of a problem. Just duck his action unless you have something. Set farming is perfect here, in position or out. Wait to play a great hand for stacks. Attack any sign of weakness when in position. These players generally bet right out on the flop when they hit their hands.

Tight-Passive. Attack, attack, attack. You will find these players play like scare money, and big raises will drive them off all but the best hands postflop. When they bet or rr, watch out. When they call, they generally have a medium strength they're afraid of losing money with.

If I ever get around to making another one of these guides, it will focus more on HUD reads, cbetting, and more specific types of players. Right now, learn to profile villains and place them in these 4 main categories. Learn to adjust your play a little bit, depending on who's in the hand with you. Always have a plan for the hand, starting preflop, thinking about how the hand might play out on the flop and turn if various villains decide to get involved.

Remember that you still need to bet or raise with goods and fold bad ones. The alterations for various players shouldn't stray too far from your TAGG ABC game.

Good luck at the tables!


Assignments

HW: Post 5 HH's, focusing on exploiting position. Learn to use FTR site search (try a keyword search for "rant" - the hits will probably be entertaining).
Range: Add Axs to your BTN range - raise them if it's unraised to you, fold them to preflop raises. Consider limping behind 2+ limpers.
Required Reading: Spoony's Raising Behind Limpers and Renton's 169 Hand SS NLHE Ring Strategy Guide, Part II.
Think About This Name 3 hands that villains at 10nl overplay. How can those overplays be diagnosed and exploited?
Suggested Reading: IowaSkinsFan (ISF) Backwords Learning Theory of Poker, complete with links to two more articles he wrote, which are suggested reading, too.


Hands 4,000 to 5,000 Pot Odds and Implied Odds.

Estimating implied odds is difficult, an art not a science. But implied odds are the heart of NLH. Exploiting them when we're drawing to a big hand, and denying them to opponents when they're likely drawing to a big hand (known as reverse implied odds).

Example. Hero has 98s and raises from the BTN, gets a limp/call from MP. Flop is T72 rainbow, but with a backdoor flush draw. Villain bets out half of the $2 pot. Hero is getting 3 to 1 pot odds since he must call $1 for a chance to win $3. If his odds of hitting his hand are 25% or more, he has the correct pot odds to call. Hero has 8 straight outs plus 1 to 1.5 flush outs. So 9 outs. Using the Rule of 2 and 4, he sees that he has 2 x 9 = 18% chance of hitting his draw on the turn. So he doesn't have the correct pot odds. But he's got a well-disguised hand if the straight hits. As long as the villain will call a bet of $1.56 more when Hero hits his hand, Hero has the correct implied odds to make this call.

Key Ideas:

1. Hero has bigger implied odds with straight draws than flush draws since 3 flush cards on the board generally shuts down the action.
2. Passive villains offer better implied odds than agro villains do.
3. Tight players often stack off too often with AA or KK overpairs, having waited forever "for a hand."
4. Hero must count outs correctly (i.e. discount straight draws when flush draws exist, watch out for paired boards, etc).
5. The more villain has bet, the more likely he is to keep betting and offer good implied odds.

This get slightly messy when Hero bets first on the flop with a draw, but in a good way. Hero adds fold equity (FE) to his chances of winning. Suppose in the example above, villain checks to Hero who raises 3/4's of the pot, or $1.50. If villain folds half of the time, that's 50% fold equity. So Hero still has his 18% of improving (about 4.5 to 1), and he only has to try to draw out when villain actually calls. If villain raises, then Hero's back to calculating implied odds. Hero is wagering $1.50 to win $2.00 half the time plus hits hand almost 20% of the time villain calls. These two situations combined obviously far outweigh the 40% of the time Hero bets $1.50, gets called on the flop and has to lay down a busted draw. Actually, it's a bit less than 40%, since villains will sometimes check the turn and give villain a second 20% shot at the nuts.

Thinking one common situation all the way through will help make most of the common scenarios easy to estimate. Same scenario as above examples. Hero is deciding whether to call a flop bet of 2/3's of the pot with 8 or 9 outs. For 8 outs, Hero has a 16% chance of hitting his outs with the next card (roughly 1/6, or 5 to 1 against). For every $1 Hero commits, he needs to get paid $5 to make it worth his while. If the pot is $3, and villain bet $2, then Hero will be committing $2. He'll need a $10 payoff. Since there's already $5 in the pot ($7 when Hero calls), he'll need to be able to bet $5 on the turn and/or river, and GET CALLED.

Hero has 8 outs, faces a $2 bet into a $3 pot (2/3's bet). Later in the hand, villain will have to bet/call 2.5 x the amount he just bet to offer the correct implied odds, or $5. Knowing this, you can quickly estimate other situations.

If you have fewer outs, say 6, you'll need villain to bet/call 4.5 x more, or $9.

If you have more outs, say 10, you'll need villain to bet/call 1.5 x more, or $3.

If the bet is bigger, say 3/4's, you'll need villain to bet/call 3 x more.

If the bet is smaller, say 1/2, you'll need villain to bet/call 2 more.


If this math is beyond you, this will be something you'll need to work on to be a solid NLH player. You can read Pot Odds vs. Percentage Change to Win to help learn the mathematics. There are links in the assignments section to help you.

It's also important to deny implied odds to opponents. We should often be willing to stack off, but if we stack off on every overpair and TPTK, we'll be giving villains their needed implied odds to call us with a lot of draws. This simply comes down to reading the game which will come with experience. But the concept is simple. Get villains to stack off more when I hit my draws than I do when they hit theirs.

Finally, the idea of set odds is so vital that it gets its own name, despite simply being an implied odds concept. Example: Villain raises from EP 4xBB, and Hero has 22 on the BTN. Ignoring the blinds for second 'cuz they don't make much of difference anyway, Hero should fold unless both Hero and Villain have at least $6 left in their stacks. Why? Mathematical facts dictate that Hero will flop a set once every 8.5 times he call here (7.5 to 1 odds against). Common wisdom is to double that 7.5 to 15 thinking that villain won't stack off every time Hero hits the set. Sure, Hero will win some small pots, but he'll have to fold a lot of times when he misses. So most FTR guys suggest 15x set odds before making the call. At 10nl, this is fine. At 25nl and higher, a 20x set odds rule is better. Villains there simply don't stack off with TPWK very often like they do at 10nl.

Also remember that unless all the active players are very deep stacked (140bb's+), it's rare that Hero is going to have the set odds to play 22 - 88 in a 3bet pot, even when Hero was first to raise. But it happens, especially when villains min-raise, so you need to be able to recognize effective stack size and quickly determine your set odds. Again, at 10nl, 15x is probably OK, as long as you're not up against an extremely nitty villain.

Good luck at the tables!


Assignments

HW: Go to the NLH Strategy Forum. Read 5 threads, and reply to at least 2. Post 2 HH's somewhere.
Range: Add all sooted broadways to your BTN range, and add AT, A9, KJ and QJ to your CO range. Raise 'em all up in unraised pots and follow with cbets when it's checked to you. Fold to preflop raises ahead of you or rr's behind you. Don't limp them - if you can't raise 'em, fold 'em.
[b]Required Reading: and Part III.
Think About This: Two villains, one is LAGG (40/25/4), one is Loose-passive (40/4/1.2). Both have 120bb stacks. If you have to choose, which one do you want on your LEFT, and why?
Suggested Reading: Da Goat's Table Selection and Pyroxene's Improve your chance of winning your next online session.

Extra reading for those who don't yet understand pot odds, implied odds and set odds:

FTR's Pot Odds Article
Spoony's Playing Big Drawing Hands
Read Lukie's post, 3rd from top in this thread, and follow from there. Discusses playing small pp's in midstakes games, but the concepts are pretty well explained, especially in Fnord's, Renton's, and Lukie's posts throughout thread. At the end, thread hits implied odds for sc's, and JefferyGB weighs in more great content.


Edit: Congrats if you got all the way through this. I hope it helps your game, or at least gives you a dozen new links to great FTR content you can read that will help. Remember to think for yourself. There are times to limp, times to call postflop and times to get into multiway pots. Just have a reason, think it through, and then post some HH's to see what others think. If you need to, spend more time on each topic than just 1k hands just spend less! I wrote this to my noobie-self (when I was just learning 10nl) and my Dad thinking of a Hero who would play 2 - 3 tables at a time. So 1k hands would take 4 - 5 hours. If you're playing more tables, maybe play 3k or 5k hands while working through each section.

Good luck at the tables!

Damn dude, you never fail to impress... even if you are a noob.

I'm still in the middle of reading FTR's version of The Stand, but from what I've read, it already deserves a sticky and a spot in the Beginner's Digest for sure. I'll give my full thoughts later tonight. Good work!

[Chopper]

Jesus H, robb! looks well thought out. i'll digest it over some time, too. definitely a rival to Crime and Punishment. (classic and loooong).

And if they're not abused, cbets will take down a huge percentage of pots, certainly enough pots to pay for the times when some set farmer takes us to value town

LOL. This statement is funny but so true. Bulletin board material in fact.

Anyway, I've read your entire post and agree with pretty much all of it. The charts you provided on c-betting should help any beginner with their post-flop betting. And the links you've provided along the way to 'add' to this guide are a nice and needful touch.

I swear this guide is how I 'learned' poker, almost in this exact order. It's great for higher level players too because we overlook the 'basics and fundamentals' at times, especially when on a losing streak or tilting.

Only thing I sorta' disagree with is that some beginners, and I mean someone who has been playing poker for less than a year or having trouble even breaking even, might need to focus on these steps for more than a 1,000 hands for each of your increments of strategy.

I also think that 'Hands 3,000 to 4,000: Read and Profiles' should be learned simultaneously with c-betting so you're not just winging it. But that's just me, so whatever. Other than that, yeah, it's a damn solid guide for 10NL.

Hell, I may have to re-read it and implement it since I may need to withdrawal a large chunk of my bankroll to pay for my new house. Cross your fingers and wish me luck.

[Fnord]

Play more tables. Lots of people here do 5k in a week. Some can play that many hands in a day.

Play more tables. Lots of people here do 5k in a week. Some can play that many hands in a day.

You're right. But if they are a true beginner and need this guide, they really have no business playing anywhere near 5K hands in a day. Realistically though, I would suggest using these learning strategies in at least 5,000 hand increments, rather than 1,000, and single-tabling at that to get the basics of this guide down.

Here's a link to Anthony Krongly's 19-hand post:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/aokrong...ing-Hands.html

[Chopper]

good luck single-tabling 5k hands...ever. no offense, mezz, but that would take a long time. with reading the stickies/guides here at FTR, and a little practice, you should be 2+ tabling 10k hands every 60 days...minimum...and thats a slow enough growth curve.

the aggressive, that want to take poker seriously, will blow my suggested pace away w/in weeks...and be fine.

[Fnord]

Here's a link to Anthony Krongly's 19-hand post:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/aokrong...ing-Hands.html

Someone should send that crap to the bit bucket already. If only because AK is one of the biggest douche bags in the poker world, which is a really impressive feat.

[daven]

nh robb

[Erpel]

Couple of things. I'll try to refrain from making a marathon post of my own. First is this - I haven't finished reading the initial post yet as I'm at work - will do it tonight - but what I have seen is very very good.

I'm signing up for this class. I've gone through a similar process before and moved on to work on different parts of my game, but it never hurts to work on fundamentals. Starting today I'm signing up for this class.

Regarding multi-table. I keep reading people saying that you can play 2 and 4 tables, and not too long ago I made such observations myself. If you are new to poker and prone to playing too many hands playing more tables can be a help - once you've gotten involved in 2 or 3 hands at the same time and seen your decisions being completely ill-considered as a result you learn (hopefully) that you have to tighten up if only so that you only get involved in one hand that requires you to think at a time. That said, I think a lot of people underestimate the information overload that faces someone who is really trying to learn and work on his game.

For myself I've recently been playing a single table at a time - on Stars - and deliberately avoided fast tables (filtered them out) in my table selection. When trying to implement something new to your game you need to make sure you have time to plod slowly through thought processes that are still not completely familiar to you. You almost have to distrust your instincts and make sure every decision you make is one that is deliberately thought through. Combatting your now-obvious timing tells and so on will come later with routine - but it's probably important to be building the routine in the right type of decision making instead of in unthinking and instant reaction to whatever happens.l

I would suggest for this class that those who take it play on a single table, avoid fast tables, do not make any fast decisions, and keep a hand history window open on the side to keep you entertained in case things go too slowly - a hand history window lets you build an understanding of how other people are playing and while I'm sure Robb in later lessons will get into how to convert hand histories (or statistics) into reads and player profiles (if not already in one of the posted ones that I hadn't got to yet) there's nothing wrong with spending whatever attention you have left over just getting to know the other players.

Yesterday I played 411 hands of 6-max in 5 hours and a bit. Assuming this kind of speed every 1000 hands - every lesson or focus area if you will - will take 12-13 hours. In my opinion that's probably entirely appropriate. You don't learn anything well from doing it for half an hour. Assuming a 20k hands curriculum and only one table - that's 250 hours of work/study - during which you are probably a winning player anyway.

Will it be painful nitting it up 10/8 on one table for 12-13 consecutive hours of poker? Sure. But poker itself and learning poker are both also games of discipline. I've recently spewed off a few too many buyins for no reason, and while I don't expect to learn much in the way of poker from the first 1k hands under this regimen, I do intend to be working on my discipline.

[Robb]

Here's a link to Anthony Krongly's 19-hand post:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/aokrong...ing-Hands.html

Thanks MM. I read all your replies, and will have something to say about a couple other things later. Thanks for digging up the original. An updated version was what I had saved a link to - the one that got deleted. I will edit the post to add the link. It's not a horrible guide, as far as it goes - if you spruce it up a bit with some thoughtfulness.

That's the difference between AOK and Renton. Renton gave noobies some credit for a having a few working brain cells. I think that confidence in me GOT me USING my brain cells, when I first read it. "Renton thinks a noobie can do this - I better try."

Here's a link to Anthony Krongly's 19-hand post:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/aokrong...ing-Hands.html

Someone should send that crap to the bit bucket already. If only because AK is one of the biggest douche bags in the poker world, which is a really impressive feat.

Haha. Guess that guy left a sour taste in the reg's mouths 'round here. To go around and delete posts like he did was rather dumb, and then to become a spammer, well, yeah I can see it. I don't know the in's and out's of AOK vs FTR but yep, total douchebaggery.

[Robb]

[Only thing I sorta' disagree with is that some beginners, and I mean someone who has been playing poker for less than a year or having trouble even breaking even, might need to focus on these steps for more than a 1,000 hands for each of your increments of strategy.

I agree with you and Fnord - I edited the post to include the advice to play LONGER at any level. When I was at the point I needed this really badly, I was 2 - 3 tabling and playing 200 - 300 hand sessions. I would work on something different every coupla hundred hands, sometimes 3 or 4 things at once. I'm hoping a noobie will concentrate on just ONE thing for several little sessions and try to really absorb the concept. And, yeah, if they can focus LONGER than 1k hands, it would help. The thing I did best was staying AOK 19-hand tight for nearly 5k hands, only adding a few hands in my BTN range, like the guide suggests.

I also think that 'Hands 3,000 to 4,000: Read and Profiles' should be learned simultaneously with c-betting so you're not just winging it.

I learned to cbet by trial-and-error. When I finally started opening only quality hands, even from the BTN, firing a cbet into any "orphan" pot worked well - it still does. So I guess I'm planning on a noobie focusing on playing his made hands well and cbetting just a bit in quality situations that will usually be right. And then getting more cbetting guidance later. That's why I included links to Spoony's cbetting threads. If I decide to write "Noobie's 2nd 5k Hands" later this summer, I'll add more thoughts on HUD reads and cbetting from my earlier mega post on cbetting and problem solving.

BTW, thanks for the input. I will continue to edit and revise as people make good comments.

[Erpel]

Btw, decided to go guinea pig and follow the above plan. I'll be posting mainly in Operation: How to play like a newbie. If I come across things that qualify as actual feedback on the regimen presented here I'll try to make a cogent feedback post here.

[Robb]

AK is one of the biggest douche bags in the poker world, which is a really impressive feat.

+1

[Robb]

Btw, decided to go guinea pig and follow the above plan. I'll be posting mainly in Operation: How to play like a newbie. If I come across things that qualify as actual feedback on the regimen presented here I'll try to make a cogent feedback post here.

Good luck. I'll be watching to see how it goes. Make sure to read the articles I linked to - I'm a noobie, but there's great advice in those links. The way I found them was I searched for all my posts and grabbed the threads and articles that were "revelation" material for me.

[ZwiFT]

lol i play 5k hands in an hour

[Robb]

lol i play 5k hands in an hour

still a noobie, though, right?

lol i play 5k hands in an hour

It must be easy to multi-table 50-100 tables at once! Wish I had that kind of grinding ability.

[sarbox68]

A key concept to understand, however, is that any hand with 9+ outs is probably worth felting (betting all-in) on the flop.

Does this mean you'll usually felt an A or K high flush draw on the flop (assuming no paired board...) in a raised / multi-way pot?

[Robb]

A key concept to understand, however, is that any hand with 9+ outs is probably worth felting (betting all-in) on the flop.

Does this mean you'll usually felt an A or K high flush draw on the flop (assuming no paired board...) in a raised / multi-way pot?

I'm pretty happy to felt Axs flush draw in a 3-way or 4-way raised pot, yes. The Ace-high flush draw is a classic multiway pot hand. You have about the same percentage equity whether you're facing 1 villain or 5.

[XTR1000]

sticky sticky

[swiggidy]

lol i play 5k hands in an hour

STFU. This is the beginners circle, not HS poker. If someone is 2 tabling it's going to take awhile.

[miracleriver]

I'm pretty happy to felt Axs flush draw in a 3-way or 4-way raised pot, yes. The Ace-high flush draw is a classic multiway pot hand. You have about the same percentage equity whether you're facing 1 villain or 5.

Even deep stacked?

[Robb]

I'm pretty happy to felt Axs flush draw in a 3-way or 4-way raised pot, yes. The Ace-high flush draw is a classic multiway pot hand. You have about the same percentage equity whether you're facing 1 villain or 5.

Even deep stacked?

Depends, of course. 100bb deep, yes. Which is something I should probably say - the guide was written for 100bb effective stacks. Don't play deeper very often at 10nl, so any situation deeper than 125bb or so would require some thought.

Semi-bluffs, if you want to think of these big draws that way, are even MORE effective (and have more fold equity) when there's a good bit behind. So I would fire a PSB without blinking with 200bb effective stacks.

Of course, every action requires thinking: reads, stacks sizes, board texture, who's left to act, how many left to act. But a PSB against 1 villain gives you 2 to 1 pot odds WHEN YOU'RE CALLED. If you have 9 outs, you've got a 36% chance of making the flush by the river. Every additional call gives you better pot odds, and doesn't generally decrease your chance of winning the hand much.

[donkbee]

sticky sticky

Will do this. Someone remind me in 3 months if I haven't done it yet :P

[Erpel]

Ok, time for me to get busy. I've played two short sessions this week following the first lesson and spent many hours thinking about the skillset and learning process (that I should have been playing) and I have a number of comments.

It feels to me that the first lesson pre-supposes that the learner knows the game and the rules and plays recreationally and for fun, but loses slowly over time because he's playing too loose and ending up in spots that he does not have the skill to play profitably. The first lesson seems to be a band-aid that seeks to slow the bleeding of chips through the TAGG cure-all - to ensure that you at least start any hand you play with better equity on average than the opponents.

The first lesson to me looks like it's trying to plug a leak by preaching discipline in your selection of playable hands. I mention it in this way because I think that while teaching a play style is likely to make the learner profitable it doesn't really teach the learner much in the way of fundamental poker skills (except discipline). In my head I'm building a list of what I consider poker skills and I would ideally like to have every lesson focused on learning or practicing one or more of those skills and to me the first lesson doesn't really teach anything beyond discipline. It could be argued (and possibly rightly so) that the purpose of the first lesson is to mold the player into playing and thinking in a specific way that is a requirement for the following lessons to be appropriate and beneficial, but I'm still not convinced by it.

The first lesson has a post-flop section which outlines very well the 'post-flop is hard' observation while trying to make it easier. It succeeds in part, as it provides a way to think about and act on the flop, but when it comes to turn and river play it suggests that you should have a plan but doesn't seem to me to provide that much guidance. To provide generic guidance for all post-flop play it might be an idea to discuss how much of your stack is justifiably put in for a given strength of hand.

For a beginner post-flop section I would consider something like the following simpler to follow:
Understand how pot sized bets (heads-up) mean that the pot is 3 times bigger on the turn and 9 timers bigger on the river than it is on the flop and consider what that means for all betting decisions.
Try to play a pot that by the showdown contains:
Straight flush, quads, full house, straight, flush, sets: All of your stack
2 pair: Half your stack
1 pair: Between one fifth and one quarter of your stack.
High card (like A or K): A tenth of your stack
Every time you are faced with a decision (check/call/bet/raise/fold) consider if you are ahead or behind. If you think you are behind check or fold. If you think you are ahead call, bet or raise with a plan to put in as much of your stack at showdown as described above considering the strength of your hand - unless too much of your stack is already in, in which case you have to fold (and you'd have to be very sure of your opponent bluffing to do otherwise). If you are in doubt and cannot tell if you are ahead or behind: Fold every time.
In the above remember the following:
The river is very likely to see both bets and bluffs - if the pot is perfectly sized for the strength of your hand before the river it is likely to become too big for the strength of your hand on the river. This can mean that you should delay one of the bets you intend to make to the river and if the opponent is likely to bluff you have to sometimes call a bet that makes the pot bigger than you would wish it to be for your hand.
All bets must be relative to the current pot size if you want to price out drawing hands (and you usually do).

The idea I have with the above is to create a relatively simple guidance for all post-flop play that is not completely wrong-headed (it is simplistsic and in many cases wrong of course), and which can serve as a framework on top of which you can learn the more advanced post-flop plays. It can be used to describe how to lay and take implied odds and board reading ties in with that model of post-flop play well also. An assignment for a beginner could be to do some calculations for each type of hand and determine what bet sizes on which street ends up with a pot that is correctly sized.

There are a couple of important poker skills which I think it's never too early to begin learning - and which I think should be a key part of the some of the very first lessons. In some areas we can get help by poker software (sometimes the site software itself), but I think it's important to develop these skills so they are automatic regardless. I am thinking about the following:

Memorise actions: Later in the hand when you need to decide if someone has just bluffed you or bet for value you need to know what he has done earlier in the hand. Only his actions earlier in the hand will give you an idea if he is likely to be bluffing or holding a monster. This skill is a necessary pre-requisite for all at-the-table hand reading (as opposed to HH analysis with range considerations). You need to have memorised both the type of action taken at any decision point for each of your villains, as well as the sizes of bets relative to the pot made at each decision point as well as any tells (online means mainly timing tells) that give you additional information.

Board reading: The basic level of board reading is to constantly monitor the cards on the board and know what is the nuts, second nuts, third nuts etc and exactly which cards make up the nuts etc - so a half-second glance at pocket cards (at showdown or similar) will tell you automatically what the absolute hand strength of the opponent is. You should never be surprised by any straight or any flush or other made hand - you should always know exactly which hands it is possible to make and which pocket card combinations make those hands. This skill is a necessary prerequisite to learning how to categorize boards as dry, wet, connected, good for bluffing etc etc. It is also a necessary skill to ward of tilt. Tilt is often triggered by losing to hands that you did not anticipate as being possible. If you have a solid understanding what is possible to occur then even the unlikely hands are less likely to tilt you - because at least they won't catch you by surprise.

This all said, I'll skip the rest of lesson 1 and start wrapping my head around lesson 2.

[Robb]

The first lesson seems to be a band-aid that seeks to slow the bleeding of chips through the TAGG cure-all - to ensure that you at least start any hand you play with better equity on average than the opponents.

The biggest leak any player can have is playing too many hands and to play them out of position. If we tighten up only to hands that ought to be played from all positions, and then add in hands for the LP seats, a noobie will quickly realize the game isn't hard. When the flop smacks them in the face, they're generally ahead and should bet. When they wiff the flop, look for weakness before attacking. And they need to learn to start "feeling" the game, learning to scan the board and think and decide if they're likely ahead or not for turn and river.

For a beginner post-flop section I would consider something like the following simpler to follow:
Understand how pot sized bets (heads-up) mean that the pot is 3 times bigger on the turn and 9 timers bigger on the river than it is on the flop and consider what that means for all betting decisions.
Try to play a pot that by the showdown contains:
Straight flush, quads, full house, straight, flush, sets: All of your stack
2 pair: Half your stack
1 pair: Between one fifth and one quarter of your stack.
High card (like A or K): A tenth of your stack
Every time you are faced with a decision (check/call/bet/raise/fold) consider if you are ahead or behind. If you think you are behind check or fold. If you think you are ahead call, bet or raise with a plan to put in as much of your stack at showdown as described above considering the strength of your hand - unless too much of your stack is already in, in which case you have to fold (and you'd have to be very sure of your opponent bluffing to do otherwise). If you are in doubt and cannot tell if you are ahead or behind: Fold every time.

I'll summarize: Big hand, big pot. Small hand, small pot. At 10nl, I'm pretty much willing to stack off with 2 pair, probably 70% of the time.

And it also matters how the chips go in. I'm much happier to play for two-thirds of my chips when I was the one leading out with bets on every street, even with TPTK. I'm pretty unhappy playing for 2/3's of my stack with TPTK when I've had to call a couple bets to get there.

This all said, I'll skip the rest of lesson 1 and start wrapping my head around lesson 2.

Thanks for all your thoughts on this - I appreciate them. Good luck with the rest of it.

[Erpel]

...And they need to learn to start "feeling" the game, learning to scan the board and think and decide if they're likely ahead or not for turn and river.
...
I'll summarize: Big hand, big pot. Small hand, small pot. At 10nl, I'm pretty much willing to stack off with 2 pair, probably 70% of the time.

And it also matters how the chips go in.
...

Just a few additional comments. While I have myself developed a "feel" by simply playing many hands, I think the purpose of any lesson should be to accelerate learning, and I think understanding the proper thought processes and skills should help develop this "feel" faster. You mention scanning the board and deciding if you're ahead or not - that to me is pretty key and something that is somewhat overlooked in the initial coverage. I know you get into it later on, but I think it's worth mentioning early on that it is important to pay attention to always.

I'm well familiar with big hand big pot, small hand small pot, but the problem for a complete newbie is to connect the dots. For a newbie sometimes a set will feel like not big enough to get all-in and other times a pair does. One of the things we're teaching (also with the TAGG style) is consistency - consistently playing cards in a proven profitable way. Mixing it up is advanced play. By my list I tried to create a lesson if you will that is something a beginner can follow step by step (with the bet size assignment) to begin to understand intuitively what big hand big pot means. I don't think jumping to the short-hand directly is helpful for someone learning. When you are learning you typically benefit from walking slowly and laboriously through a process and then when understanding settles in you can begin to short-hand it. I'm not pretending that the measures I come up with are well calibrated, but they would be broken anyway a lesson or three later when you start discussing relative hand strength as opposed to absolute hand strength - they're a temporary measure to make the beginner begin to think about proper bet and pot sizing, pot commitment and to stop them stacking off too lightly.

[Erpel]

A point of.. proofreading I guess.

In lesson 1 I learn that my opening range from the CO contains ATs, from button A9s and KJ.

In lesson 3 I am told to expand my button opening range (only) with AT, A9 and KJ (and QJ). Of the four two of them are already in my range if suited and while I can understand that the writing here means ATo and A9o some small measure of nod in the direction of the suited versions already being in your range wouldn't be out of place. KJ already being in the range (no suitedness noted in lesson 1) makes it seem like a very odd customer.

I'll withhold comment on whether KJ should be KJs in lesson 1, absent in lesson 1 or replaced by KT or something in lesson 3 - it's all weaktight to me I'm afraid.

That said - looking at Spoon's post on blind stealing (required reading for lesson 3) he goes on to suggest people start blind stealing with suited connectors before starting to play suited aces. ATs is not quite what I would consider Ace-rag suited, but A9s is beginning to look borderline.

ATs is not quite what I would consider Ace-rag suited, but A9s is beginning to look borderline.

Depends on the situation. A9s can be a shit hand in a large 3-way pot. But you look at a hand like A3s in a multi-way pot, and you could have yourself a great hand because of the added straight possibilities. But regardless, neither hand would qualify as a "big hand, big bet" unless you flop the nuts. Personally, I would rather have A3s than A9s in most situations.

[Robb]

ATs is not quite what I would consider Ace-rag suited, but A9s is beginning to look borderline.

If the board flushes your way, ATs = A3s. They play the same. But consider AT on a no-flush-possible board that is A9652. How many Aces do you beat? How many hands do you beat at all? How do you know when you're good?

The problem with AJ and AT isn't on the flop (though they can suck pretty bad there), it's the turn and river where you can really lose your way and spew chips drawing almost dead.

[JKDS]

About 4k hands and 4 sng's after reading and utilizing this thread i have officially recovered my bankroll after losing more than half through tilt, improper stakes, and just bad play. I'm now actually a buy-in above my initial deposit. TY for the advice robb and others at FTR

[Bradley]

Daaamnn thanks for this already! I haven't read it all but I'll read the rest later(off to bed now).
I guess I'll have to buy pokertracker/hm, it really is worth it eh guys? But which one do you recommend? And where is it the cheapest :P

Btw at the moment I've got about 60 bucks on my br. Usually do 3.25$ 6-max turbo SnG's, I think I'm playing too big for my BR. I've doubled up once to 125$(really playing well after reading some guides) but somehow I managed to lose a lot after that and now I'm stuck at the break-even point. You think I should at least get 240$ more on my account? (with 10nl you mean 10$ full-buy in right, so on PS that's 0.02/0.05 or o.o5/o.10)

Another question; does anyone have a overall amount of hands per hour(1 table or multi tabling) As I work full-time I can't play THAT much, I wonder how long it takes to play 1k hands. I tried to guess but it's too hard.

And one last question about multi tabling- I depend on reads quite often, I'm not a complete beginner to hold'em(just didn't play much online), I watch how they play, and make notes about it etc. When you multi table you cannot watch all the tables so how do you get reads? I guess pokertracker shows some statistics or would I need another program for that?

Thanx in advance, off to bed now.

[DocRazor]

I guess I'll have to buy pokertracker/hm, it really is worth it eh guys? But which one do you recommend?

You can get HM small stakes edition for $55. Let's you import up to 50NL and up to $22 tourneys. Not sure what PT is anymore.

(with 10nl you mean 10$ full-buy in right, so on PS that's 0.02/0.05 or o.o5/o.10)

I used to buy in for $5 at the .02/.05. You're not playing 200BB deep. And most of the players have less then that anyway.

Another question; does anyone have a overall amount of hands per hour(1 table or multi tabling)

6m or FR? 6m you can probably get about 70 hands/hr in at one table. For multi-tabling just multiply that by the number of tables. FR would be a bit less (50 hands/hr i would think). At PS i run around 300 hands/hr, 4-tabling 6max.

[Robb]

Daaamnn thanks for this already!

No problem

And one last question about multi tabling- I depend on reads quite often, I'm not a complete beginner to hold'em(just didn't play much online), I watch how they play, and make notes about it etc. When you multi table you cannot watch all the tables so how do you get reads? I guess pokertracker shows some statistics or would I need another program for that?

PT3 comes with what used to be PokerAce HUD already coupled with it. For PT2, you needed the HUD add-on. With HM, it's already onboard, so that single program will do it all. The least amount of money you can spend is like someone said above: $55 for small stakes HM which includes the HUD.

[nice_aiau]

I'm starting back at 10NL in about a week and I'm going to follow this guide to keep me out of trouble.
I'm going to realy concentrate on improving and getting a decent winrate before jumping up to 25NL which I failed to do in a previous attempt at making the monies :s
From what I've read so far this will help me greatly.
I'll start a Op to keep ya posted on how its all going

Thanks mate!

[Robb]

I'm starting back at 10NL in about a week and I'm going to follow this guide to keep me out of trouble.
I'm going to realy concentrate on improving and getting a decent winrate before jumping up to 25NL which I failed to do in a previous attempt at making the monies :s
From what I've read so far this will help me greatly.
I'll start a Op to keep ya posted on how its all going

Thanks mate!

Good luck!!

[NewbieNoOne]

wow freaking amazing. I'm gonna re-read this over and over again just to make sure I follow it right and get all the lessons learned.