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zook
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03-02-2007, 05:34 PM
Post subject: zook: Year One - Discipline (long)
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Anosmic’s Year One post inspired me to do something for my first FTRnniversary. It’s been a great year for me, poker-wise. I started last February playing $10 SNGs and 25NL ring with a $300 bankroll and am now playing 200NL with a $8k bankroll. I’ve played ~75k ring hands in the past year, won over $8k and collected another $4k in bonuses and rakeback. Honestly, I owe most of my success to FTR. If I hadn’t discovered this community of helpful, funny, passionate poker players, there’s no way I would have gotten to this point.
I’m want to try to give a little back to FTR by writing down my thoughts on the biggest obstacle to becoming a better poker player: discipline. Knowing the right thing to do is important, but if you don’t have the discipline to execute your knowledge, it’s useless. I struggle with issues of discipline constantly, in both my poker and work life, and have thought a lot about it. Hopefully some of my thoughts with benefit FTRers.
1. Bankroll Discipline – This comes first because without it, the rest doesn’t matter. Guidelines vary, but you shouldn’t be playing ring games without 15 buy-ins, SNGs without 30 entries or MTTs without 50 entries AT THE ABSOLUTE MINIMUM. Better guidelines are 20 for ring, 50 for SNGs and 100 for MTTs. And these should be adjusted UPWARD if you multitable, play 6-max, or play a laggy, high-variance style.
2. Concentration Discipline – I either 6-table full-ring or 4 to 6-table 6-max and find it requires all of my concentration. If I have my e-mail program open, am browsing FTR or IM’ing with friends, I definitely don’t play as well. I still struggle with this sometimes, but when I start a poker session, I try to close all distracting programs on my computer, set up a long music playlist, don’t answer my phone or IM and just concentrate on poker. If I get bored and want to check my e-mail or go on FTR, I give myself a break, or cut down to 2 tables while I do it.
3. Reading Opponents Discipline – This is one I need to improve on. I’ll start a session great, paying attention to hands I’m not involved in and taking notes on players every time a hand goes to showdown. But after a half-hour or so, I get lazy and stop. Almost every hand that goes to showdown (and some that don’t) provides valuable information, and if you’re not picking up on it, that's costing you money.
4. Multi-tabling Discipline – This one really varies from person to person. There are successful 12-tablers at mid-stakes and sick high stakes players who won’t play more than 3 or 4. But I strongly believe that if you don’t have time to look at instant hand histories, make reads and make notes without missing action, you’re playing too many tables. I’ve found my own limit seems to be 7 tables of full ring and 4 tables of 6-max, but I’ve been working on adding 6-max tables recently.
5. Table/Seat Selection Discipline – There’s absolutely no reason to sit at a bad table or in a bad seat. But it takes discipline to leave when a table turns bad, or a good tagg sits down on your left. Make sure you know what makes a good table… high table VPIP, full stacks/loose players/aggressive players to your right and tight/weak/passive players to your left. If the table donators go busto and leave, STAND UP. If a decent tagg or lagg on your left is owning you, STAND UP. Table/seat selection is one of the biggest +EV differences between online poker and live poker. Take advantage of it.
6. Session Review Discipline – When you’re finished with a session, it’s easy to forget about it, either because it went well (as you expected b/c you’re a poker god) or because it went terribly (thanks to stupid, lucky fish and bad beats). But, it’s crucial that you review every session before you play your next. I generally just look at my top 5 or 10 biggest winners and losers of the session. If I took a bad beat, I congratulate myself. If I gave a bad beat, made a bad play, made a bad read, I figure out my mistake and OWN IT. If you don’t own your mistakes, you can’t improve them. If you think, “It was a good bluff, he never should have called, I’d do it again the same way,” you’ve learned nothing. If instead, you analyze why he might have called (the board, your line, your image, he’s a station) and how you could have realized that beforehand (by thinking about what you were repping, looking at his stats, a read you missed) then you’ve learned something. When you come across a difficult hand, post it on FTR.
7. Improving Your Game Discipline – Set a percentage of your poker time aside every week and devote it to reading about the game. Read these forums and 2+2 and take the time to think through the hands /questions before you read other people’s responses. Read poker books. Re-read poker books. Reading the Harrington on Hold Em books, Sklansky’s Theory of Poker and Sklansky & Miller’s NLHE Theory & Practice helped me immensely and I’m wearing them out re-reading them. Plug hands into PokerStove. If you play SNGs, buy Sitngo Analyzer and play with that. Subscribe to Cardrunners or PokerXFactor and download poker videos. Get on ventrilo or AIM or irc or the FTR Chat room and find better players willing to discuss strategy with you. All the resources are out there, but you need to devote some time to studying as well as playing. Playing lots and lots of hands is the best way to improve your game, but without some amount of study to set you on the right course (and correct that course once in awhile) it doesn’t matter how much you play.
8. Poker Discipline – By this I mean discipline in your actual poker decisions. This is one of the hardest for me. I still make spewy bluffs, stupid hero calls and generally make decisions too quickly. This one is very personal, b/c everyone has their own discipline issues (yours might be playing too loose pre-flop, calling raises oop, chasing draws, pushing draws) but I have a reminder list that I read before every session that I think helps me somewhat. It changes frequently, but currently it looks like:
Quote:
1. CONCENTRATION! Playing six tables requires as much as you can give it. Set up music beforehand, close Outlook, no browsing, no phone calls.
2. PATIENCE! Poker is a long-term game
2a. No fancy play for at least two orbits!
3. GET READS! After a few orbits you should have new reads on a least a player or two at every table.
4. TAKE YOUR TIME when facing big bets. HAND OFF THE MOUSE!
4a. Big bets are rarely bluffs. Remember how much money you've lost not folding.
5. Look closely at player notes/stats before playing post-flop.
6. Make an attempt to put players on a HAND RANGE before every street!
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I still end up making decisions too quickly sometimes, but I’m trying to make myself: wait for the colored FT timer to start ticking or my Stars time bank to be activated when I’m faced with a big pot decision, take my hand off the mouse and not worry about my other tables unless I have a big hand/decision there too.
Ok, this is really long. Thanks to FTR for an enjoyable and profitable first year of online poker.
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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NH sir....Nice to have watched you advance. I'm rooting for you. Thanks for all the help!
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Operation Grind For Education:
Current BR: $10080(04/06/2009) BR Goal: $15000--I LOVE RB!!!
End date: 31aug2009
Current stakes: $100/200NL FR
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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thx zook, session review is my main weak point. besides big hands i do neglect to review others.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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thnwkd
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bahamas
Posts: 436
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nh sir!
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Success is how high you bounce after hitting bottom.
IslandGrinder
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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one really good question:
how did you deal with your first 10buy in downswing, if you have had a serious one?
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Halv
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pro crastinator
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No hindsight for the blind.
Posts: 1,842
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Very good. Another point for consentration discipline: don't play unless you're ready to do so. Way too many times have I thought to myself "I need to get some hands in" only to stand up two hours later down a couple of buyins because my mind wasn't in it.
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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Great post man, very useful. Thanks also for your suggestions and help on my cash game hands.
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Anosmic
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 999
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Damn. Does the same post as me but with better content and he won more money.
Gah!
But seriously, great post, well done.
I think point 5 is something I definitely need to work on.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Dang two super good posts in a matter of days.
I need to hang more in this forum again.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HalvSame
Very good. Another point for consentration discipline: don't play unless you're ready to do so. Way too many times have I thought to myself "I need to get some hands in" only to stand up two hours later down a couple of buyins because my mind wasn't in it.
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Very good point. I do the same thing. The first challenge is recognizing when you're not ready to play. Then the second one is either forcing yourself not to play, or getting yourself into the right mindset. Those are tall orders. I might have to add something about it to #2...
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
one really good question:
how did you deal with your first 10buy in downswing, if you have had a serious one?
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It is a good question, but I haven't had one. My biggest downswing was just a couple of weeks ago. I lost 2 buy-ins in my first shot at 400NL, followed by 4 at 200NL. Psychologically, it was really tough losing that much $. But then I looked through my hands and realized that the big losses that weren't bad beats were almost all spew. I was playing cocky and not giving my opps enough credit. Once I decided the problem was fixable, it wasn't tough to start playing hands again. I played a couple days of break-even poker before starting to climb back.
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Fnord
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03-04-2007, 10:08 AM
Post subject: Re: zook: Year One - Discipline (long)
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#12 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
But it takes discipline to leave when a table turns bad, or a good tagg sits down on your left.
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I rather like predictable opponents that tend to fold when I play a hand on my left. The only possible exception is short-handed if he defends well. The guys that make me find another table are the ones who re-raise a fair range and wield position like a sledgehammer.
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2_Thumbs_Up
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 271
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I'm stealing your list.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,604
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Bumpy Bump Bump! Great post zook. Everyone here can benefit from reading this.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,801
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quality bump
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,335
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It was only when I got to stacks post saying bump that i realised this was an old post. Thanks anyway, it covered a lot of ground for a cash newbie and is extremely thought provoking.
As an aside ,apart from the topics listed in the sticky for newbies to read , is there a part of the forum where the true insightful,quality posts can be copied to , so that newcomers can absorb the quality information that has been posted which can then get lost amongst the sheer numbers of posts that happen since the original posting.
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Keith_MM
It was only when I got to stacks post saying bump that i realised this was an old post. Thanks anyway, it covered a lot of ground for a cash newbie and is extremely thought provoking.
As an aside ,apart from the topics listed in the sticky for newbies to read , is there a part of the forum where the true insightful,quality posts can be copied to , so that newcomers can absorb the quality information that has been posted which can then get lost amongst the sheer numbers of posts that happen since the original posting.
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I think that's what the stickies are trying to achieve. Perhaps they need to be updated or do you mean some sort of FTR Wiki may need to be considered?
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LOL OPERATIONS
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Keith_MM
It was only when I got to stacks post saying bump that i realised this was an old post. Thanks anyway, it covered a lot of ground for a cash newbie and is extremely thought provoking.
As an aside ,apart from the topics listed in the sticky for newbies to read , is there a part of the forum where the true insightful,quality posts can be copied to , so that newcomers can absorb the quality information that has been posted which can then get lost amongst the sheer numbers of posts that happen since the original posting.
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very top of the forum
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...re-t36037.html
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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vnh zook 
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Xianti
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: facebook.com/xianti
Posts: 5,289
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
...or do you mean some sort of FTR Wiki may need to be considered?
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Not a bad idea. Not bad at all.
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xianti
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
...or do you mean some sort of FTR Wiki may need to be considered?
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Not a bad idea. Not bad at all. |
We have a million wikis at my office for each segment, solution, etc. It's a nice thing to have when you don't feel like sending off a "hey i'm a dumbass but what is this..." email.
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LOL OPERATIONS
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,335
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Quote:
I think that's what the stickies are trying to achieve. Perhaps they need to be updated or do you mean some sort of FTR Wiki may need to be considered?
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what i was meaning is that the stickies should be a starting point, to get newbies started , the quality posts could then be used like a reference library that people can work through at there own pace , and since its 'quality' posts newbies can accept that they are being told the right thing to do , rather than a thread discussion in which many newbies are trying to work out what the best thing to do is .
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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nice bump stacks nice post zook
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Keith_MM
Quote:
I think that's what the stickies are trying to achieve. Perhaps they need to be updated or do you mean some sort of FTR Wiki may need to be considered?
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what i was meaning is that the stickies should be a starting point, to get newbies started , the quality posts could then be used like a reference library that people can work through at there own pace , and since its 'quality' posts newbies can accept that they are being told the right thing to do , rather than a thread discussion in which many newbies are trying to work out what the best thing to do is . |
So like a Wiki...
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LOL OPERATIONS
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