Put Your Opponent On A Goddamn Range

**spoonitnow** · 01-27-2010 11:50 PM

Someone PM'd me asking the following:

Hello,

I hope you don't mind me messaging you.

In a lot of your posts you talk about putting your opponent on a range. This is something I'm having trouble with as I constantly raise with a good starting hand, get called and always get beat.

Can you recommend any articles that would teach me how to do this with some accuracy? I had a look around but I can't find an article relating to this yet.

Specifically I'm playing 2nl NLHE.

Thanks for your time,
xxxxxxxx

I rattled off the following response but then decided to post it in a thread instead:

Hey xxxxxxxx,

This thread http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ad-t91945.html explains some basic ideas, but it's basically just applying some logic to what you know about your opponents' likely actions and what they mean. Here's an example:

Let Villain here be a tagg player who plays tight in EP, loose in LP, and c-bets a whole lot of flops, but isn't very aggressive on later streets without the goods. We'll take these reads and tendencies we know about our opponent and use them to figure out a pretty close range of hands for him after each of his actions.

Suppose we're playing microstakes NLHE 100bb deep and a tagg player opens to 4x in EP. At this point we can put him on a range of something like {AQ+, 66+} or so depending on what we know about him specifically. His range could be as narrow as {AK, 99+} or it could be as wide as {AJ+, KQ, 22+}, but it will be somewhere in that ballpark because we know he's a tagg and he will be opening a tight range in EP. For now let's go with {AJ+, KQ, 22+}.

Let's say we call his raise on the button with 65 of spades. The flop comes Qs 7c 3d and the flop pot is about 9bb after the rake. Our opponent fires a c-bet of 7bb into us. Let's figure out his range now.

This opponent likes to c-bet a lot of flops, so he will probably bet with something like all of his sets, all of his missed broadway hands, all of his top pairs, his strongest second pair JJ, and some of the weaker PP hands in his range like 22 and 44 (trying to get us to fold something like 55 or 66 or whatever). So now his range is probably something like {AJ+, KQ, JJ+, 77, 33}.

Suppose we call his bet, and the turn makes the board Qs 7c 3d 8s and we remember that we hold 6s 5s. The turn pot is 22bb or so after the rake, and our opponent checks. Now his range has changed again (ranges change after every action) so we can narrow it down some more. This Villain probably wouldn't check this turn with any top pair hand or better so that makes anything in {QQ+, AQ+, KQ, 77, 33} much less likely. He also would probably bet at least some of the time with AK and AJ if he turned the nut flush draw, so we can note that AsKs and AsJs are unlikely as well for his turn checking range. Therefore, his likely range now is something like {AJ, AK, JJ} not including AsKs/AsJs.

We'll stop there since we've gotten far enough to extract some important ideas in the process of deducing a range. First, you have to realize that later in the hand, certain hands are very unlikely because of how the previous streets played. For example, here you wouldn't expect your opponent to often have Q7 on the flop since he wouldn't have raised it preflop. For a similar example, you can't think it's particularly likely he has 88 on the turn if you don't think he c-bets it on the flop.

Second, there's often a sort of "fuzzy" factor to these ranges when you have some hands that you aren't sure he would play in a certain way. For example on the flop here, it's hard for us to know how he's going to play his second pair hands JJ-88. He's probably more likely to bet JJ than 88, but he might not bet any of them at all. There's a certain amount of guesswork involved to try to make smart estimates. Similarly, a lot of people would check QQ on this flop at least some of the time trying to slowplay top set on a super dry board to extract money from bluffs since it's super unlikely the button would hold a hand that could stand more than one street of betting. So that means on the turn we have to realize that QQ isn't going to be as likely as 77.

Third, you will need to have some understanding of how hand combinations work. This post of mine from a long time ago explains it pretty well http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...tc-t75711.html but the general idea is that on a flop of say Q73 if our opponent's range includes both AQ and 33, it's much more likely he has AQ than 33 just because of the number of ways he could be dealt the hand.

Hope this helps.

That was my response. I find it downright hilarious that out of the dozens of people I have berated for not putting their opponents on a range that this is only the second person in probably the past 4 months who has actually asked me about it.

**spoonitnow** · 01-27-2010 11:53 PM

{Reserved for Part 2}

**daviddem** · 01-28-2010 12:54 AM

I find it downright hilarious that out of the dozens of people I have berated for not putting their opponents on a range that this is only the second person in probably the past 4 months who has actually asked me about it.

Maybe they don't dare to because they think they'll be berated again?

**spoonitnow** · 01-28-2010 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by daviddem

I find it downright hilarious that out of the dozens of people I have berated for not putting their opponents on a range that this is only the second person in probably the past 4 months who has actually asked me about it.

Maybe they don't dare to because they think they'll be berated again?

Allow me to retort.

Then they need to get a new fucking hobby. This isn't figure-skating, this is a group of people at a table trying to take every fucking penny and every ounce of worth you have on a financial and human level. If someone can't stand being berated over completely ignoring one of the most basic concepts in some endeavor then they need to get the fuck out. If someone posts a hand in here, and they have no fucking idea what they're doing, 9 times out of 10 it's going to be because they haven't put their opponents on a range. Then 90% of that 1 time out of 10 it's because the range they put their opponent on made absolutely no fucking sense. People need to get with it or get lost. I'm not going to hold someone's hand and tell them that everything will be okay and they'll make it one day just off of mashing whichever button flashes the brightest. In case anyone is wondering, I'm not going to hold anyone's dick while they take a piss either.

But on a more PR-friendly note, I can't be held responsible for someone else's fear of failure.

**daviddem** · 01-28-2010 01:16 AM

Fair enough, I believe in self study first and asking questions after. All that info is quite readily available on the forum and articles and there are also really good books out there that clarify a lot of the concepts (Sklansky, Professional No Limit, Let there be range and Easy game all come to mind). I still haven't read them all yet, so I may be off the spot at times or not master all the ideas involved in a play, but I am dedicating as much time as I have to learning, keeping in mind that I do not do this professionally and that I also have other hobbies.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

In case anyone is wondering, I'm not going to hold anyone's dick while they take a piss either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY0Qq66N9NI

Not you then?

**spoonitnow** · 01-28-2010 01:23 AM

Yeah that's productive.

**daviddem** · 01-28-2010 01:24 AM

Sorry, I edited my post above with I hope a more sensible reply after you saw it.

**spoonitnow** · 01-28-2010 01:33 AM

Oh man this thread gave me this idea and I'm going to post it here for the lols.

YO DAWG I HEARD YOU LIKE TO BALANCE RANGES SO I PUT A RANGE IN YOUR RANGE SO YOU CAN BALANCE YOUR RANGE WHILE YOU BALANCE YOUR RANGE

**rpm** · 01-28-2010 03:38 AM

hello mr spoon. this post is very helpful for fish like me. your hardass attitude to us fish is a healthy reminder that poker is one tough, yet rewarding motherfucker of a game, and that being average is not good enough if you want to make money. thanks.

**Shifter** · 01-28-2010 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Suppose we call his bet, and the turn makes the board Qs 7c 3d 8s and we remember that we hold 6s 5s. The turn pot is 22bb or so after the rake, and our opponent checks. Now his range has changed again (ranges change after every action) so we can narrow it down some more. This Villain probably wouldn't check this turn with any top pair hand or better so that makes anything in {QQ+, AQ+, KQ, 77, 33} much less likely. He also would probably bet at least some of the time with AK and AJ if he turned the nut flush draw, so we can note that AsKs and AsJs are unlikely as well for his turn checking range. Therefore, his likely range now is something like {AJ, AK, JJ} not including AsKs/AsJs.

I have a question regarding villains actions - specifically checking the turn. You state that villain "probably wouldn't check this turn with any top pair hand or better so that makes anything in {QQ+, AQ+, KQ, 77, 33} much less likely". At 2NL I've seen a fair few (very) tagg players betting standard amounts preflop, c-betting the flop and then choosing to C/R the turn or river with TPTK or even sets, presumably because they recognise it as an action to convey a powerful hand and to potentially squeeze more money out of the other players.

When narrowing our range after his check on the turn (in your example), can we take such possibilities into account and are there any specific reads or stats that would indicate a villain is predisposed to doing this?

**Sasquach991** · 01-28-2010 04:18 PM

How do I put villains on a range if I don’t know how to play poker?

I think this is why most new players have a problem with ranges.

If I cbet on a board with two painted cards and get a call, how do I know to put villain on a FD (among other hands) if I don’t know how to play a hand where I have a FD?

If I open in EP with 99 and get 3bet from the btn, how do I know to include 99+ in villains range if I’ve only ever 3bet with KK+, AK because that’s what I used to think that’s all you 3bet with.

You guys that have been playing for a long time think this is common sense but it’s only common sense if this situation occurs enough to be common to you.

“This opponent likes to c-bet a lot of flops, so he will probably bet with something like all of his sets, all of his missed broadway hands, all of his top pairs, his strongest second pair JJ, and some of the weaker PP hands in his range like 22 and 44 (trying to get us to fold something like 55 or 66 or whatever). So now his range is probably something like {AJ+, KQ, JJ+, 77, 33}.”

You know this because it’s common sense to you but to someone with less experience it’s not so obvious. When I first started playing, I never cbet a flop if I didn't hit it in some way.

I guess what I'm saying is if I don't know how to play poker , how do I determine villian's range based on how he is playing if I myself don't know how to play?

I guess the better you get at playing poker, the better you get at assigning ranges because you know that certain actions or inactions indicate a change in villians range based on previous experience .

**spoonitnow** · 01-28-2010 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Shifter

When narrowing our range after his check on the turn (in your example), can we take such possibilities into account and are there any specific reads or stats that would indicate a villain is predisposed to doing this?

Yes, and that's the entire point. If you think he's playing his range a different way (because of stats or reads or whatever) then you compensate for that.

As far as stats go, the turn check/raise % could be of use here.

**oskar** · 01-28-2010 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

As far as stats go, the turn check/raise % could be of use here.

What's the # of hands required at FR to make turn c/r % meaningful? 50k-ish?

**spoonitnow** · 01-28-2010 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by oskar

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

As far as stats go, the turn check/raise % could be of use here.

What's the # of hands required at FR to make turn c/r % meaningful? 50k-ish?

The total number of hands in your sample is irrelevant. It's the same of times your opponent had the chance to check/raise that matter.

**Outlaw** · 01-29-2010 04:16 PM

**eragotte** · 01-29-2010 07:10 PM

This isn't figure-skating, this is a group of people at a table trying to take every fucking penny and every ounce of worth you have on a financial and human level. If someone can't stand being berated over completely ignoring one of the most basic concepts in some endeavor then they need to get the fuck out

this is oddly very motivating...

**LawDude** · 01-29-2010 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

How do I put villains on a range if I don’t know how to play poker?

This is quite true. But the reverse is also true. Learning how to play poker better makes you estimate ranges better.

When you first start out, your ranges may be way off, because you (1) aren't watching opponents very closely, (2) don't know how to interpret their actions, (3) don't know how to interpret stats, if you even have them, and (4) don't know what different types of players usually do. That's fine, though. You still should be TRYING to put players on ranges, even if you aren't accurate. For instance, you might see an early position raiser and assume he missed a flop like 753 (unless he just had a big pocket pair). He turns out to have a set of 3's, which you didn't realize because you didn't think he would raise pocket 3's from early position. Or you see a player make a huge raise on the flop on a board with 2 spades out. A beginner might not realize that someone might do that with a flush draw and assume instead that they've run into a monster and their top pair top kicker isn't good.

As you get better at poker, your ranges get more accurate, because you realize the arguments in favor of things like raising small pocket pairs and raising flush draws on the flop. And of course, it's a positive feedback loop-- as your ranges get more accurate, you also get better at poker, which means even more accurate ranges, etc.

So I think spoon's advice is very important and that beginning players should immediately start thinking about putting players on ranges, and this is true EVEN IF THE RANGES THAT THE PLAYER COMES UP WITH ARE, AT FIRST, QUITE INACCURATE. They will get better as the player improves, but the player is only going to improve if he or she is thinking about ranges.

**spoonitnow** · 01-29-2010 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

How do I put villains on a range if I don’t know how to play poker?

The same way you learn anything when you don't know anything about it. You try like hell, then you go back and review and analysis your trials. Then you try again and repeat the process.

The biggest reason someone would have this attitude is if their ego is trying to protect them from failure. There's nothing wrong with that happening, I mean that's one of the ego's natural jobs, but at some point you have to take over and commit to the learning process. Part of this committal is realizing that it's okay to make mistakes.

**spoonitnow** · 01-29-2010 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by eragotte

This isn't figure-skating, this is a group of people at a table trying to take every fucking penny and every ounce of worth you have on a financial and human level. If someone can't stand being berated over completely ignoring one of the most basic concepts in some endeavor then they need to get the fuck out

this is oddly very motivating...

Here's a thought along those same lines: Taking someone's money is about the closest you can come to legally taking their life away in a card game.

**Outlaw** · 01-30-2010 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

How do I put villains on a range if I don’t know how to play poker?

The same way you learn anything when you don't know anything about it. You try like hell, then you go back and review and analysis your trials. Then you try again and repeat the process.

The biggest reason someone would have this attitude is if their ego is trying to protect them from failure. There's nothing wrong with that happening, I mean that's one of the ego's natural jobs, but at some point you have to take over and commit to the learning process. Part of this committal is realizing that it's okay to make mistakes.

This.

I think the best players in the game are, for the most part, the only ones who don't think they are the best players in the world. And that makes them able to become better because they are more willing to exercise self-examination and push themselves to improve.

**Robb** · 01-31-2010 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

How do I put villains on a range if I don’t know how to play poker?

The same way you learn anything when you don't know anything about it. You try like hell, then you go back and review and analysis your trials. Then you try again and repeat the process.

This is the key to improving, imo. Trying ranges at the table, trying ranges in threads on FTR, trying ranges in IRC, trying to put ppl on ranges in the coffee shop - just trying every freakin' time try to put ppl on a range. See how it works out. When you nail it, review what you did well. When you screw it up, try to isolate where you got lost in the hand. Just keep trying.

**mz102489** · 02-02-2010 05:35 PM

Just sayin.

**Random_Hero** · 02-02-2010 06:20 PM

great thread

**iloveaces** · 02-04-2010 11:41 AM

What I'm finding difficult at the moment is choosing a starting range preflop. Because I'm playing 2NL it seems people will call your raise with Ax, Kx and some starting hands that are just plain retarded. I generally sit out for a couple of orbits when I first join a table to see what people are calling with but that's what I'm having trouble with right now.

**spoonitnow** · 02-13-2010 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by iloveaces

What I'm finding difficult at the moment is choosing a starting range preflop. Because I'm playing 2NL it seems people will call your raise with Ax, Kx and some starting hands that are just plain retarded. I generally sit out for a couple of orbits when I first join a table to see what people are calling with but that's what I'm having trouble with right now.

I just want to note that it's not necessary when at the table to try to put your opponent on a specific hand-for-hand range (though in your study it can be useful for reasons I won't get into here even if you're off a bit on what his true range is). If you think a guy who has stats of 47/8 is calling your raise with Ax, and you open AQ from EP and the flop comes A45r, then it's time to bet pot for two streets and shove the river. You don't have to think in terms of "Okay I think his range here is something like {22-TT,A2s+,K3s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K7o+,Q9o +,J9o+,T9o}," especially when the range you're dealing with is so large. That's part of what I meant in the OP about how there's a certain fuzzy factor with these ranges. The larger the ranges get, the more fuzzy they become.

**dranger7070** · 02-14-2010 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by mz102489

Just sayin.

GOGO RED POWER RANGER! (My fav as a kid obviously

)

**hhsale** · 02-18-2010 10:16 AM

lol

**spoonitnow** · 09-17-2010 05:42 PM

Bump.

**Micro2Macro** · 09-17-2010 10:21 PM

in soviet russia, range puts you on opponent.

**markalius7** · 09-18-2010 01:26 AM

Looool

Originally Posted by dranger7070

GOGO RED POWER RANGER! (My fav as a kid obviously

)

**Sasquach991** · 01-24-2011 09:48 PM

Bump

**daviddem** · 01-25-2011 11:47 AM

Here is a picture that you can use as a gentle reminder to repeat offenders:

Do not click if you have epilepsy: you've been warned

**spoonitnow** · 01-25-2011 12:41 PM

I like this better YouTube - Super Mario Bros 3 - Beginner's Circle Edition

I wish I still had my Zelda gifs I made

**JR9477** · 01-25-2011 01:01 PM

Trying to send people into shock?

**spoonitnow** · 01-25-2011 03:48 PM

Yeah that post should probably edited to a link with a warning for people who have epilepsy (not joking).

**grnydrowave2** · 01-25-2011 04:00 PM

**Acemonk** · 01-25-2011 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by mz102489

Just sayin.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA I almost die laughting!!!!

**Sasquach991** · 01-25-2011 08:54 PM

Except that I don't think the Power Rangers were ever opponents

**grnydrowave2** · 01-25-2011 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

Except that I don't think the Power Rangers were ever opponents

The green ranger started out evil and took on all five of them at once. It was very exciting stuff when I was 7-8 years old.

But I digress. In the pic, I think the rangers are each putting some claymation villain on a range. They just have differing opinions.

**kickass** · 01-25-2011 09:56 PM

the black ranger has a weird range in mind for villain maybe he has good reads

**PokerWang** · 01-25-2011 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by daviddem

Maybe they don't dare to because they think they'll be berated again?

Good point. No one wants to ask someone they think is too good to help them.

**spoonitnow** · 01-26-2011 01:57 AM

Originally Posted by PokerWang

Good point. No one wants to ask someone they think is too good to help them.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Allow me to retort.

Then they need to get a new fucking hobby. This isn't figure-skating, this is a group of people at a table trying to take every fucking penny and every ounce of worth you have on a financial and human level. If someone can't stand being berated over completely ignoring one of the most basic concepts in some endeavor then they need to get the fuck out. If someone posts a hand in here, and they have no fucking idea what they're doing, 9 times out of 10 it's going to be because they haven't put their opponents on a range. Then 90% of that 1 time out of 10 it's because the range they put their opponent on made absolutely no fucking sense. People need to get with it or get lost. I'm not going to hold someone's hand and tell them that everything will be okay and they'll make it one day just off of mashing whichever button flashes the brightest. In case anyone is wondering, I'm not going to hold anyone's dick while they take a piss either.

But on a more PR-friendly note, I can't be held responsible for someone else's fear of failure.

See above.

**daviddem** · 01-26-2011 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

{Reserved for Part 2}

Birthday of this thread in two days. Time for part 2 imo.

**couriermike** · 01-26-2011 01:17 PM

They put me on a range!

**spoonitnow** · 01-26-2011 01:33 PM

That's a stove

**couriermike** · 01-26-2011 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

That's a stove

Isn't a stove on top of an oven a range?

**birdman417** · 01-26-2011 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

That's a stove

See how Spoon is always teaching?

He is reminding use Pokerstove along with putting our opponents on ranges!

**Sasquach991** · 01-26-2011 03:24 PM

If I remember right, when microwave ovens first came out they were called radar ranges. Maybe Harley can confirm this as he's an old fart too.

New Acronym:
PHOAROGTFO (Put Him On A Range Or Get The Fuck Out)

01-27-2010 11:50 PM #1
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	Put Your Opponent On A Goddamn Range Someone PM'd me asking the following: Hello, I hope you don't mind me messaging you. In a lot of your posts you talk about putting your opponent on a range. This is something I'm having trouble with as I constantly raise with a good starting hand, get called and always get beat. Can you recommend any articles that would teach me how to do this with some accuracy? I had a look around but I can't find an article relating to this yet. Specifically I'm playing 2nl NLHE. Thanks for your time, xxxxxxxx I rattled off the following response but then decided to post it in a thread instead: Hey xxxxxxxx, This thread http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ad-t91945.html explains some basic ideas, but it's basically just applying some logic to what you know about your opponents' likely actions and what they mean. Here's an example: Let Villain here be a tagg player who plays tight in EP, loose in LP, and c-bets a whole lot of flops, but isn't very aggressive on later streets without the goods. We'll take these reads and tendencies we know about our opponent and use them to figure out a pretty close range of hands for him after each of his actions. Suppose we're playing microstakes NLHE 100bb deep and a tagg player opens to 4x in EP. At this point we can put him on a range of something like {AQ+, 66+} or so depending on what we know about him specifically. His range could be as narrow as {AK, 99+} or it could be as wide as {AJ+, KQ, 22+}, but it will be somewhere in that ballpark because we know he's a tagg and he will be opening a tight range in EP. For now let's go with {AJ+, KQ, 22+}. Let's say we call his raise on the button with 65 of spades. The flop comes Qs 7c 3d and the flop pot is about 9bb after the rake. Our opponent fires a c-bet of 7bb into us. Let's figure out his range now. This opponent likes to c-bet a lot of flops, so he will probably bet with something like all of his sets, all of his missed broadway hands, all of his top pairs, his strongest second pair JJ, and some of the weaker PP hands in his range like 22 and 44 (trying to get us to fold something like 55 or 66 or whatever). So now his range is probably something like {AJ+, KQ, JJ+, 77, 33}. Suppose we call his bet, and the turn makes the board Qs 7c 3d 8s and we remember that we hold 6s 5s. The turn pot is 22bb or so after the rake, and our opponent checks. Now his range has changed again (ranges change after every action) so we can narrow it down some more. This Villain probably wouldn't check this turn with any top pair hand or better so that makes anything in {QQ+, AQ+, KQ, 77, 33} much less likely. He also would probably bet at least some of the time with AK and AJ if he turned the nut flush draw, so we can note that AsKs and AsJs are unlikely as well for his turn checking range. Therefore, his likely range now is something like {AJ, AK, JJ} not including AsKs/AsJs. We'll stop there since we've gotten far enough to extract some important ideas in the process of deducing a range. First, you have to realize that later in the hand, certain hands are very unlikely because of how the previous streets played. For example, here you wouldn't expect your opponent to often have Q7 on the flop since he wouldn't have raised it preflop. For a similar example, you can't think it's particularly likely he has 88 on the turn if you don't think he c-bets it on the flop. Second, there's often a sort of "fuzzy" factor to these ranges when you have some hands that you aren't sure he would play in a certain way. For example on the flop here, it's hard for us to know how he's going to play his second pair hands JJ-88. He's probably more likely to bet JJ than 88, but he might not bet any of them at all. There's a certain amount of guesswork involved to try to make smart estimates. Similarly, a lot of people would check QQ on this flop at least some of the time trying to slowplay top set on a super dry board to extract money from bluffs since it's super unlikely the button would hold a hand that could stand more than one street of betting. So that means on the turn we have to realize that QQ isn't going to be as likely as 77. Third, you will need to have some understanding of how hand combinations work. This post of mine from a long time ago explains it pretty well http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...tc-t75711.html but the general idea is that on a flop of say Q73 if our opponent's range includes both AQ and 33, it's much more likely he has AQ than 33 just because of the number of ways he could be dealt the hand. Hope this helps. That was my response. I find it downright hilarious that out of the dozens of people I have berated for not putting their opponents on a range that this is only the second person in probably the past 4 months who has actually asked me about it.
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01-27-2010 11:53 PM #2
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	{Reserved for Part 2}
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01-28-2010 12:54 AM #3
daviddem View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2009 Posts 1,509 Location Philippines/Saudi Arabia	I find it downright hilarious that out of the dozens of people I have berated for not putting their opponents on a range that this is only the second person in probably the past 4 months who has actually asked me about it. Maybe they don't dare to because they think they'll be berated again?

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01-28-2010 01:03 AM #4
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	Originally Posted by daviddem I find it downright hilarious that out of the dozens of people I have berated for not putting their opponents on a range that this is only the second person in probably the past 4 months who has actually asked me about it. Maybe they don't dare to because they think they'll be berated again? Allow me to retort. Then they need to get a new fucking hobby. This isn't figure-skating, this is a group of people at a table trying to take every fucking penny and every ounce of worth you have on a financial and human level. If someone can't stand being berated over completely ignoring one of the most basic concepts in some endeavor then they need to get the fuck out. If someone posts a hand in here, and they have no fucking idea what they're doing, 9 times out of 10 it's going to be because they haven't put their opponents on a range. Then 90% of that 1 time out of 10 it's because the range they put their opponent on made absolutely no fucking sense. People need to get with it or get lost. I'm not going to hold someone's hand and tell them that everything will be okay and they'll make it one day just off of mashing whichever button flashes the brightest. In case anyone is wondering, I'm not going to hold anyone's dick while they take a piss either. But on a more PR-friendly note, I can't be held responsible for someone else's fear of failure.
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01-28-2010 01:16 AM #5
daviddem View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2009 Posts 1,509 Location Philippines/Saudi Arabia	Fair enough, I believe in self study first and asking questions after. All that info is quite readily available on the forum and articles and there are also really good books out there that clarify a lot of the concepts (Sklansky, Professional No Limit, Let there be range and Easy game all come to mind). I still haven't read them all yet, so I may be off the spot at times or not master all the ideas involved in a play, but I am dedicating as much time as I have to learning, keeping in mind that I do not do this professionally and that I also have other hobbies. Originally Posted by spoonitnow In case anyone is wondering, I'm not going to hold anyone's dick while they take a piss either. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY0Qq66N9NI Not you then?

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Put Your Opponent On A Goddamn Range

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Put Your Opponent On A Goddamn Range

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01-28-2010 01:23 AM #6
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	Yeah that's productive.
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01-28-2010 01:24 AM #7
daviddem View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2009 Posts 1,509 Location Philippines/Saudi Arabia	Sorry, I edited my post above with I hope a more sensible reply after you saw it.
	Virginity is like a bubble: one prick and it's all gone Ignoranus (n): A person who is stupid AND an assh*le
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01-28-2010 01:33 AM #8
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	Oh man this thread gave me this idea and I'm going to post it here for the lols. YO DAWG I HEARD YOU LIKE TO BALANCE RANGES SO I PUT A RANGE IN YOUR RANGE SO YOU CAN BALANCE YOUR RANGE WHILE YOU BALANCE YOUR RANGE
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01-28-2010 03:38 AM #9
rpm View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2009 Posts 2,839 Location maaaaaaaaaaate	hello mr spoon. this post is very helpful for fish like me. your hardass attitude to us fish is a healthy reminder that poker is one tough, yet rewarding motherfucker of a game, and that being average is not good enough if you want to make money. thanks.

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01-28-2010 03:18 PM #10
Shifter View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2009 Posts 37 Location Rätt här	Re: Put Your Opponent On A Goddamn Range Originally Posted by spoonitnow Suppose we call his bet, and the turn makes the board Qs 7c 3d 8s and we remember that we hold 6s 5s. The turn pot is 22bb or so after the rake, and our opponent checks. Now his range has changed again (ranges change after every action) so we can narrow it down some more. This Villain probably wouldn't check this turn with any top pair hand or better so that makes anything in {QQ+, AQ+, KQ, 77, 33} much less likely. He also would probably bet at least some of the time with AK and AJ if he turned the nut flush draw, so we can note that AsKs and AsJs are unlikely as well for his turn checking range. Therefore, his likely range now is something like {AJ, AK, JJ} not including AsKs/AsJs. I have a question regarding villains actions - specifically checking the turn. You state that villain "probably wouldn't check this turn with any top pair hand or better so that makes anything in {QQ+, AQ+, KQ, 77, 33} much less likely". At 2NL I've seen a fair few (very) tagg players betting standard amounts preflop, c-betting the flop and then choosing to C/R the turn or river with TPTK or even sets, presumably because they recognise it as an action to convey a powerful hand and to potentially squeeze more money out of the other players. When narrowing our range after his check on the turn (in your example), can we take such possibilities into account and are there any specific reads or stats that would indicate a villain is predisposed to doing this?

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01-28-2010 04:18 PM #11
Sasquach991 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Sep 2008 Posts 1,251 Location Rat Cheer	How do I put villains on a range if I don’t know how to play poker? I think this is why most new players have a problem with ranges. If I cbet on a board with two painted cards and get a call, how do I know to put villain on a FD (among other hands) if I don’t know how to play a hand where I have a FD? If I open in EP with 99 and get 3bet from the btn, how do I know to include 99+ in villains range if I’ve only ever 3bet with KK+, AK because that’s what I used to think that’s all you 3bet with. You guys that have been playing for a long time think this is common sense but it’s only common sense if this situation occurs enough to be common to you. “This opponent likes to c-bet a lot of flops, so he will probably bet with something like all of his sets, all of his missed broadway hands, all of his top pairs, his strongest second pair JJ, and some of the weaker PP hands in his range like 22 and 44 (trying to get us to fold something like 55 or 66 or whatever). So now his range is probably something like {AJ+, KQ, JJ+, 77, 33}.” You know this because it’s common sense to you but to someone with less experience it’s not so obvious. When I first started playing, I never cbet a flop if I didn't hit it in some way. I guess what I'm saying is if I don't know how to play poker , how do I determine villian's range based on how he is playing if I myself don't know how to play? I guess the better you get at playing poker, the better you get at assigning ranges because you know that certain actions or inactions indicate a change in villians range based on previous experience .
	"Just cause I'm from the South don't mean I ain't got no book learnin'" Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla ...we've all learned long ago how to share the truth without actually having the truth.
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01-28-2010 04:23 PM #12
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	Re: Put Your Opponent On A Goddamn Range Originally Posted by Shifter When narrowing our range after his check on the turn (in your example), can we take such possibilities into account and are there any specific reads or stats that would indicate a villain is predisposed to doing this? Yes, and that's the entire point. If you think he's playing his range a different way (because of stats or reads or whatever) then you compensate for that. As far as stats go, the turn check/raise % could be of use here.
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01-28-2010 05:04 PM #13
oskar View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Apr 2008 Posts 3,308 Location in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz	Re: Put Your Opponent On A Goddamn Range Originally Posted by spoonitnow As far as stats go, the turn check/raise % could be of use here. What's the # of hands required at FR to make turn c/r % meaningful? 50k-ish?

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01-28-2010 05:17 PM #14
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	Re: Put Your Opponent On A Goddamn Range Originally Posted by oskar Originally Posted by spoonitnow As far as stats go, the turn check/raise % could be of use here. What's the # of hands required at FR to make turn c/r % meaningful? 50k-ish? The total number of hands in your sample is irrelevant. It's the same of times your opponent had the chance to check/raise that matter.
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01-29-2010 04:16 PM #15
Outlaw View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Nov 2007 Posts 1,043

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01-29-2010 07:10 PM #16
eragotte View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2009 Posts 494	This isn't figure-skating, this is a group of people at a table trying to take every fucking penny and every ounce of worth you have on a financial and human level. If someone can't stand being berated over completely ignoring one of the most basic concepts in some endeavor then they need to get the fuck out this is oddly very motivating...

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01-29-2010 07:29 PM #17
LawDude View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2009 Posts 940	Originally Posted by Sasquach991 How do I put villains on a range if I don’t know how to play poker? This is quite true. But the reverse is also true. Learning how to play poker better makes you estimate ranges better. When you first start out, your ranges may be way off, because you (1) aren't watching opponents very closely, (2) don't know how to interpret their actions, (3) don't know how to interpret stats, if you even have them, and (4) don't know what different types of players usually do. That's fine, though. You still should be TRYING to put players on ranges, even if you aren't accurate. For instance, you might see an early position raiser and assume he missed a flop like 753 (unless he just had a big pocket pair). He turns out to have a set of 3's, which you didn't realize because you didn't think he would raise pocket 3's from early position. Or you see a player make a huge raise on the flop on a board with 2 spades out. A beginner might not realize that someone might do that with a flush draw and assume instead that they've run into a monster and their top pair top kicker isn't good. As you get better at poker, your ranges get more accurate, because you realize the arguments in favor of things like raising small pocket pairs and raising flush draws on the flop. And of course, it's a positive feedback loop-- as your ranges get more accurate, you also get better at poker, which means even more accurate ranges, etc. So I think spoon's advice is very important and that beginning players should immediately start thinking about putting players on ranges, and this is true EVEN IF THE RANGES THAT THE PLAYER COMES UP WITH ARE, AT FIRST, QUITE INACCURATE. They will get better as the player improves, but the player is only going to improve if he or she is thinking about ranges.

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01-29-2010 07:58 PM #18
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	Originally Posted by Sasquach991 How do I put villains on a range if I don’t know how to play poker? The same way you learn anything when you don't know anything about it. You try like hell, then you go back and review and analysis your trials. Then you try again and repeat the process. The biggest reason someone would have this attitude is if their ego is trying to protect them from failure. There's nothing wrong with that happening, I mean that's one of the ego's natural jobs, but at some point you have to take over and commit to the learning process. Part of this committal is realizing that it's okay to make mistakes.
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01-29-2010 08:06 PM #19
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	Originally Posted by eragotte This isn't figure-skating, this is a group of people at a table trying to take every fucking penny and every ounce of worth you have on a financial and human level. If someone can't stand being berated over completely ignoring one of the most basic concepts in some endeavor then they need to get the fuck out this is oddly very motivating... Here's a thought along those same lines: Taking someone's money is about the closest you can come to legally taking their life away in a card game.
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01-30-2010 02:49 AM #20
Outlaw View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Nov 2007 Posts 1,043	Originally Posted by spoonitnow Originally Posted by Sasquach991 How do I put villains on a range if I don’t know how to play poker? The same way you learn anything when you don't know anything about it. You try like hell, then you go back and review and analysis your trials. Then you try again and repeat the process. The biggest reason someone would have this attitude is if their ego is trying to protect them from failure. There's nothing wrong with that happening, I mean that's one of the ego's natural jobs, but at some point you have to take over and commit to the learning process. Part of this committal is realizing that it's okay to make mistakes. This. I think the best players in the game are, for the most part, the only ones who don't think they are the best players in the world. And that makes them able to become better because they are more willing to exercise self-examination and push themselves to improve.

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01-31-2010 11:07 PM #21
Robb View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2007 Posts 3,230	Originally Posted by spoonitnow Originally Posted by Sasquach991 How do I put villains on a range if I don’t know how to play poker? The same way you learn anything when you don't know anything about it. You try like hell, then you go back and review and analysis your trials. Then you try again and repeat the process. This is the key to improving, imo. Trying ranges at the table, trying ranges in threads on FTR, trying ranges in IRC, trying to put ppl on ranges in the coffee shop - just trying every freakin' time try to put ppl on a range. See how it works out. When you nail it, review what you did well. When you screw it up, try to isolate where you got lost in the hand. Just keep trying.
	My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are sob so hard to play against
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02-02-2010 05:35 PM #22
mz102489 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Oct 2009 Posts 74 Location utg	Just sayin.

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02-02-2010 06:20 PM #23
Random_Hero View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2006 Posts 603 Location Dundee - Scotland	great thread

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02-04-2010 11:41 AM #24
iloveaces View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2009 Posts 55	What I'm finding difficult at the moment is choosing a starting range preflop. Because I'm playing 2NL it seems people will call your raise with Ax, Kx and some starting hands that are just plain retarded. I generally sit out for a couple of orbits when I first join a table to see what people are calling with but that's what I'm having trouble with right now.
	Originally Posted by AdamThePirate Iloveaces, your signature is completely redundant.
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02-13-2010 04:02 PM #25
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	Originally Posted by iloveaces What I'm finding difficult at the moment is choosing a starting range preflop. Because I'm playing 2NL it seems people will call your raise with Ax, Kx and some starting hands that are just plain retarded. I generally sit out for a couple of orbits when I first join a table to see what people are calling with but that's what I'm having trouble with right now. I just want to note that it's not necessary when at the table to try to put your opponent on a specific hand-for-hand range (though in your study it can be useful for reasons I won't get into here even if you're off a bit on what his true range is). If you think a guy who has stats of 47/8 is calling your raise with Ax, and you open AQ from EP and the flop comes A45r, then it's time to bet pot for two streets and shove the river. You don't have to think in terms of "Okay I think his range here is something like {22-TT,A2s+,K3s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K7o+,Q9o +,J9o+,T9o}," especially when the range you're dealing with is so large. That's part of what I meant in the OP about how there's a certain fuzzy factor with these ranges. The larger the ranges get, the more fuzzy they become.
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02-14-2010 12:55 PM #26
dranger7070 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Oct 2008 Posts 4,080 Location Butnaahhhhhh	Originally Posted by mz102489 Just sayin. GOGO RED POWER RANGER! (My fav as a kid obviously )

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02-18-2010 10:16 AM #27
hhsale View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Visit Homepage Join Date Feb 2010 Posts 19 Location Russia	lol

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09-17-2010 05:42 PM #28
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	Bump.
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09-17-2010 10:21 PM #29
Micro2Macro View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jan 2009 Posts 5,038 Location No structure	in soviet russia, range puts you on opponent.

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09-18-2010 01:26 AM #30
markalius7 View Profile View Forum Posts Join Date Sep 2010 Posts 15	Looool Originally Posted by dranger7070 GOGO RED POWER RANGER! (My fav as a kid obviously )

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01-24-2011 09:48 PM #31
Sasquach991 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Sep 2008 Posts 1,251 Location Rat Cheer	Bump
	"Just cause I'm from the South don't mean I ain't got no book learnin'" Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla ...we've all learned long ago how to share the truth without actually having the truth.
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01-25-2011 11:47 AM #32
daviddem View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2009 Posts 1,509 Location Philippines/Saudi Arabia	Here is a picture that you can use as a gentle reminder to repeat offenders: Do not click if you have epilepsy: you've been warned
	Last edited by daviddem; 01-25-2011 at 04:04 PM. Virginity is like a bubble: one prick and it's all gone Ignoranus (n): A person who is stupid AND an assh*le
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01-25-2011 12:41 PM #33
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	I like this better YouTube - Super Mario Bros 3 - Beginner's Circle Edition I wish I still had my Zelda gifs I made
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01-25-2011 01:01 PM #34
JR9477 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2008 Posts 529 Location Iowa	Trying to send people into shock?
	(Josh)
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01-25-2011 03:48 PM #35
spoonitnow View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Best Strat Poster 2012 Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 10,093 Location Trying to FUNCTION	Yeah that post should probably edited to a link with a warning for people who have epilepsy (not joking).
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