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spoonitnow
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03-15-2010, 08:39 AM
Post subject: The Official Don't F'ing Open Limp Thread
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,405
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^^^
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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heist
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One Pair
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20
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So, ideally, our VPIP and PFR stats should be the same? ie 33/33?
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heist
So, ideally, our VPIP and PFR stats should be the same? ie 33/33?
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No
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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heist
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One Pair
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20
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kthx
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speedcake
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 434
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lol
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your banner burned here
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 721
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The discrepancy in VPIP and PFR comes in the times we call PF bets AND when we check the BB, right?
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kiwiMark
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nu Zuland bru
Posts: 934
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Checking the big blind does not affect VPIP as you're not voluntarily putting that money in the pot.
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* dranger smells like bum piss and dog shit all over down there
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heist
So, ideally, our VPIP and PFR stats should be the same? ie 33/33?
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thread doesn't say never limp it says never open limp. As far as i know open limping is when it's folded around too you and you just limp in. I would say this is a bad play 99 percent of the time
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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or spoon may actually mean limping in general but i always thougt in poker open meant the first person to put money in the pot.
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jaytoi
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 119
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i dont open limp, that's why im sending out questions when people of note advise it :S
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Im ready this time.
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jaytoi
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 119
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So you'd raise k8 off heist?
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Im ready this time.
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jaytoi
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleogre
or spoon may actually mean limping in general but i always thougt in poker open meant the first person to put money in the pot.
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yeah otherwise it's "limping behind"
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Im ready this time.
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heist
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One Pair
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytoi
So you'd raise k8 off heist?
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I'd fold it preflop jaytoi, then contemplate what clothes to wear tomorrow.
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jaytoi
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 119
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Fair enough. The time saved by such an immediate decision would allow such time for contemplation.
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Im ready this time.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Spoon is right. You can, of course, get away with open limping in a very narrow circumstance, which is where you can read the table and are confident that nobody's going to raise a limped pot except in very narrow circumstances where you would want to get out anyway. And advanced players can limp re-raise in certain circumstances (basically when you have a strong hand you want heads-up and are confident that your limp will be iso-raised by a player acting after you whose raising range is way behind your hand).
But those two scenarios comprise probably 1/10 of 1 percent of all the poker you play. Which means that open limping should be about as rare in your game as hitting quads.
In fact, that's probably a good measure of how often you should open-limp. If you open-limp more often than you hit quads, you are doing it too much.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,539
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I support this thread!
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jaytoi
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LawDude
Spoon is right. You can, of course, get away with open limping in a very narrow circumstance, which is where you can read the table and are confident that nobody's going to raise a limped pot except in very narrow circumstances where you would want to get out anyway. And advanced players can limp re-raise in certain circumstances (basically when you have a strong hand you want heads-up and are confident that your limp will be iso-raised by a player acting after you whose raising range is way behind your hand).
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Yeah thats what i was thinking about at 2NL- that "narrow circumstance" is rather prevalent. 80% of tables (especially ones with high %players to flop) look like this : limp,limp, limp, limp , limp , call, call ,call ,call ,call. So a raise often only serves the purpose of value, as you never get isolation out of it. And your own limp in turn never gets iso raised unless, as you said, they most likely have a better hand than you're limping with. So limping works there (@2NL) with a hand that needs to hit a flop (you can't bluff with 90 % percent of the time), as you're likely to be playing fit or fold, and the less money you waste before getting this said fit the better.
I definitely agree that open limping basically never works when you have a table where anyone is thinking about more than what they want to wear tomorrow, as it's always going to get iso- raised, so why not raise yourself , etc etc etc. It's probably even good at 2NL for value, and for newcomers for getting the idea drilled into their head of raise/fold poker.
It's just some tables do not seem to have any thought process in their actions sometimes..
And yes open limp-reraising AA UTG at a super aggressive table can work too.
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Im ready this time.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,405
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If it's such an aggressive table then open raise and get 3-bet and don't give away wtf your hand is.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld
I support this thread!
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I support your sig
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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DJJunkPauds
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytoi
Yeah thats what i was thinking about at 2NL- that "narrow circumstance" is rather prevalent. 80% of tables (especially ones with high %players to flop) look like this : limp,limp, limp, limp , limp , call, call ,call ,call ,call. So a raise often only serves the purpose of value, as you never get isolation out of it. And your own limp in turn never gets iso raised unless, as you said, they most likely have a better hand than you're limping with. So limping works there (@2NL) with a hand that needs to hit a flop (you can't bluff with 90 % percent of the time), as you're likely to be playing fit or fold, and the less money you waste before getting this said fit the better.
I definitely agree that open limping basically never works when you have a table where anyone is thinking about more than what they want to wear tomorrow, as it's always going to get iso- raised, so why not raise yourself , etc etc etc. It's probably even good at 2NL for value, and for newcomers for getting the idea drilled into their head of raise/fold poker.
It's just some tables do not seem to have any thought process in their actions sometimes..
And yes open limp-reraising AA UTG at a super aggressive table can work too.
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Yeah, that's about as good an outline of one the most exploitable poker tendancies as you could make. Here's how those same tables you describe look when I'm playing them: limp limp limp limp complete raise to 8xBB fold fold call fold call <flop> check bet 2/3 pot fold fold, hero scopes 25.5 BB.
I raise all pocket pairs from every single position, almost no matter what. I raise them 4+1 per limper x BB. Then what happens is that A. Everyone folds, and I win, B. Most people fold, and I see a flop, which I continuation bet my way out of, C. I flop a set, someone makes a hand/plays back at me because I've been frickin' raising all day/feels invested in the pot, and I stack them. Here's what happens when my opponents limp with their small pairs: I raise with an absurdly wide range, and cbet them off 7 out of 8 flops, turning an automatic profit, even if they call me 100% of the time. 1 time out of 8, they make it obvious they have a set, and I loose the minimum. Here's what happens when you make a set in a limped pot: nobody cares, and you make 7 big blinds.
I raise with suited connectors for the same reason as above, but not quite to the same extent.
If you never limp, you'll have almost limped as much as you should have: you're way more likely to limp to much than not enough, so just don't limp. Never ever limp. One day you'll be playing 200NL, and crushing it, and you'll come back and read this, and be able to cite some limited exceptions to this. That's when you can limp, until then, don't do it. You're loosing almost no money, and probably saving a bunch.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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what if i have say QQ in the co and the button is a 60/40 lag monkey who raises almost every limped pot but only 3-bets say 10 percent of hands. Should i limp raise or just raise and hope to get 3-bet?
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MasonGamble
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 65
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the only time this doesn't work is at a table with a Maniac.. I mean a litteral Callingstation Maniac..... I usually get off these tables but after losing an all-in bet with AA to K8o after raising from the button and getting re-raised all-in from BB w/ K8off I stayed at said table to get my money back. However I found this guy would call each and every pre-flop raise no matter what, and I mean NO MATTER what...
we're seriously talking calling a 4xbb raise with 72o...
I stacked up off this character many hands but in the end he ended up with most my money by hitting crazy lucky flops, turns and rivers.
So my question is, in this type of situation, how do you suggest to play the preflop?
I limped several strong hands and that was usually when I would collect. However, when ever raising pre- he always flopped the crazy nuts. I know in the long run he will lose more then he wins, but this doesn't help the short term game where he doubles up and exits table.
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"Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't interupt those who are doing it"
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eragotte
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 504
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Quote:
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So my question is, in this type of situation, how do you suggest to play the preflop?
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if you were properly rolled you would love these guys and just keep buying back in til he is broke.
tbh though when there is a guy that i know is tripling every bet whether i open limp or call at a table behind me i will limp like 67s since if i raise he 3bets every time. (ive only played with a guy aggro enough to do this once in all my time playing though)
edit:
Quote:
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doesn't help the short term game where he doubles up and exits table
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- buddy list n stalk him.
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MasonGamble
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 65
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lmao, I DID!!!! haha... and i did buy back-in once, doubled up off him and I know I should have left then but he was just giving the money away. This is the second time in all my online play that I have ran into someone like this, so I agree, it doesn't happen often. But I will find him, and I will tilt him... He's negative $1100 profit anyway, so not sure if he even understands what Tilt is, but I will put him there.
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"Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't interupt those who are doing it"
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 721
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"Chasing players isn't profitable in the long run."
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
"Chasing players isn't profitable in the long run."
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wat
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 721
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I meant that if someone stacks you, having a personal vendetta to "get them back" isn't profitable in the long run.
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MasonGamble
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 65
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i don't agree. I am watching this guy now. his playing habits are not changing. He is playing every two cards that fall infront of him. When the time is right I will join his table and stack off from him and get my money back. after that I will hopefully never see him again, lmao
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"Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't interupt those who are doing it"
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
I meant that if someone stacks you, having a personal vendetta to "get them back" isn't profitable in the long run.
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It depends, but let's say focused.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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why would you not want to chase players worse then you
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 721
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who said anything about not chasing fish?
im talking about in game chasing of a player that has stacked u...effectively just another facet of tilting
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CBAT
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 831
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<cbat|grinding> weaktight | Hand Poll | T9s - $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Holdem
<cbat|grinding> 57/36
<cbat|grinding> 88% cbet 100% fold to cbet
<cbat|grinding> 8.5AF
<cbat|grinding> 21.43bet over 77 hnd
<cbat|grinding> AF drops down a little on turn
<@spoonitnow> you should limp behind preflop
<@spoonitnow> if it's folded to you
<@spoonitnow> i open limp this
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,405
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<@spoonitnow> i open limp this
<cbat|grinding> =-O
<@spoonitnow> or maybe minraise
<@spoonitnow> either is probably fine
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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02-11-2012, 02:29 PM WPT Lucky Hearts Poker Open Day 1A: Uri Kadosh Leads
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