I will never 'get it'

I think I may have hit upon a revelation. For the first time I think that I am trying to learn something where the basic elements are actually very illusive. How do I mean?

Reading hands. I understand the principle. I can use Poker Stove (or at least one of its functions) but in the time I have to make a decision the best I can pin someone down on is something like 'probably a high pair or high suited connectors'. That specific. Sure, I am trying to use that knowledge, but it's a bit vague.

Equity. Again, I have a broad understanding of what this means, but I can only apply the principles broadly.

Back to reading hands. Best advice is if someone bets they hold something reasonable (unless they are bluffing). But in another thread I am advised to watch for calling stations who call even with strong hands. So, if I follow the advice, I never go up against someone who raises or calls! (I am doing well against peeps that fold at least! )

But none of it is that simple. Looking back over the very short period I have been playing, the concepts I know are all getting just a tiny bit clearer.

Some day I think I'll have it figured that the bloke calling me to the river is a holding station and make the decision to fold. And I'll be right. And then sometime after something else will happen to make me think that maybe I still don't understand that one!

So what to do.

Well I read an excellent article by the Dean today. The link is bookmarked on my laptop, so not today folks! But play, play and play some more. Over and over again (and keep reading and reviewing as I go) and slowly, ever so slowly I will get closer to 'getting it'.

But I will never 'get it'.

The key to using pokerstove is to practice with it when you aren't playing. Stove ranges for different villains in different situations. Do this thousands of times. Eventually you'll start to see that a lot of these situations are fairly typical and when you see one of these situations at the table you'll have a good idea of what kind of equity you have in this spot, because you've practiced.

Beware of the fallacy of pokerstove.

Loads of microbonks punching random, unrealistic ranges into the thing convincing themselves they:

a) knwo what they're doing
b) made correct calls/folds

I know exactly how you feel. When i first started playing i never realised how much effort goes in to getting good and the sheer amount of information one must absorb.

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

Beware of the fallacy of pokerstove.

Loads of microbonks punching random, unrealistic ranges into the thing convincing themselves they:

a) knwo what they're doing
b) made correct calls/folds

Sounds worryingly like me!

Originally Posted by jippo88

I know exactly how you feel. When i first started playing i never realised how much effort goes in to getting good and the sheer amount of information one must absorb.

yeah it's pretty insane this is why it tilts me when ppl irl are like oh you don't work you play poker

I think pokerstove can be really usefull but a danger as well when used incorrectly.

Well, I have the first two books in my poker library. Time to start learning about poker in my lunch breaks, on the train, in the bath, in bed and some other places too!

Which two did you buy?

Texas Hold 'Em for Dummies by Mark Harlan

Texas Hold'em For Dummies: Amazon.co.uk: Mark Harlan: Books


Holden on Hold 'Em by Anthony Holden

Poker Book Review: Anthony Holden's 'Holden on Hold'em' | PokerNews


Purchased in Foyle's Charing Cross Road store

Foyles Bookshop - Our Bookstores

An amazing shop, the biggest bookshop I have ever seen by a very large margin. An entire section just on poker!

I'd be wary of some of the info you get from books as they are often quite outdated to today's games. Getting coaching and videos from coaching sites are often better than most books. Keep playing more hands and post them to get opinions from other players.

There's a lot to learn and people who don't play poker won't understand how much effort it takes to be decent at the game.

Originally Posted by ColdDecked

I'd be wary of some of the info you get from books as they are often quite outdated to today's games.

^ this

IMO a great guide to the Micros is: BlackRain79: Book

written by a current player and proven winner, and all-round decent bloke.

Check it out, sez I

I haven't been playing serious poker long enough to know what info beginner books give that's outdated at the micro level. Any examples?

Originally Posted by ColdDecked

I'd be wary of some of the info you get from books as they are often quite outdated to today's games. Getting coaching and videos from coaching sites are often better than most books. Keep playing more hands and post them to get opinions from other players.

There's a lot to learn and people who don't play poker won't understand how much effort it takes to be decent at the game.

I'm learning about the effort required!

I definitely will keep getting opinions on hands!

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

^ this

IMO a great guide to the Micros is: BlackRain79: Book

written by a current player and proven winner, and all-round decent bloke.

Check it out, sez I

The blurb looks exciting. I especially liked the word 'crush'. I'll take me a little look at eBay and Amazon...

Originally Posted by gjoselepen

so you mean it's not safe anymore in pokerstove?

I'm seeing poker stove like a tool. A knife maybe. Use it badly, cut off a finger. Use it well, gut a fish.

Isn't half the point that as you develop an understanding of odds and ranges and stuff, you more easily spot that the fish-monkey is just randomly hitting buttons because that's the only way it makes sense when held up to your model?

I'd suggest not worrying too much about books. I really think you're better off lurking this forum and just playing. Books have a way of making you robotic rather than robust.

Originally Posted by Chusko

I'd suggest not worrying too much about books. I really think you're better off lurking this forum and just playing. Books have a way of making you robotic rather than robust.

Oh, I shan't worry about them, just read them! ;p

I take on what you mean though. Once I get a grip I am happy that my mind will start extrapolating and I will be here in the forum asking 'why' like a small child!

Imo the best thing to do us start categorising people. You don't need many categories. Just use nit/tag, lag, station, crazy aggro idiot.

Then adjust your play for each category.

Stations: give wide range, value bet, beware against aggression.

Lags: let them bet into you, call with good/medium hands, muck crap.

Nit/tags: value bet, bluff a little, play poker.

Crazy agro idiots: get it in light and expect high variance.

This sounds too simplistic. And it is. But its a good starting point. As you play people, categorize them based on stats and add notes to help narrow their range as and when you get useful info. At msnl this should work quote well and has the benefit of getting you used to thinking about ranges, adjusting your play and taking notes, all of which are vital for your growth as a player.

Thanks Dan. I like this advice, manageable and staged.

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

^ this

IMO a great guide to the Micros is: BlackRain79: Book

written by a current player and proven winner, and all-round decent bloke.

Check it out, sez I

OK, I have got myself a copy of this book and read a fair bit of it already.

Well, it does seem to be different! The advice seems to be pointing in quite a different direction to what I am used to and I am not sure that it sits well with me. I think it may be such a specific target audience; someone who wants to win money at playing literally millions of hands of the microest of the micro hands.

At my level talking of bad runs of 100,000 hands is rather unsettling!

The author claims that his techniques will get one thinking about the game to open up and look for your own winning strategies at any level. So one reason to carry on reading - to see if he is right about that!

I know that I am never going to be able to play so many hands as this guy talks about so I need a steady and relatively safe game, I suspect. Too much variance could knock me out of the running with the number of hands I am likely to play in the near future. Of course as I start being happy about multi-tabling I can mitigate that risk.

Having said that I have not read the whole book yet and so judgement is reserved. But my final observation is that I applied my usual rule of read some then play some. But after reading the first 70 or 80 pages of this book I felt completely disorientated and did not feel like I knew what I was doing at all! Stopped play after a half-dozen hands!

Probably needs some time to settle in my poor little brain.

You should try the infamous 19-hand strategy.












[ ] serious

Originally Posted by binky bee

But after reading the first 70 or 80 pages of this book I felt completely disorientated and did not feel like I knew what I was doing at all!

The more you learn, the more you realize how much more you don't know.

I've felt the same way as you before, keep studying and posting on the forum and I'm sure it will pass.

Originally Posted by StarGrinder

You should try the infamous 19-hand strategy.

The starting hands suggested to me by bikes are a very narrow range and with the same reasoning. The hands are slightly different, but bikes's reasoning was the same.

Today on the train as I travel to London, I will be reading a more balanced book, and that will help steady me!

Everything I am about to say may be trivial and redundant, but I'm going to anyways.

Preflop is easy game. When folded to you, you should know exactly which hands to play and how to play them. Develop your own personal system and stick to what eventually works for you. My simplistic question that I ask myself is: Do I probably have the best hand right now? Yes - raise. No - fold. Play super tight UTG. like PP's, and AQ+.

You need to think less about your hand and think more about their hand. This is your number one priority. This is the same thing I just explained in the preflop questioning. Do the same postflop. When you're not totally sure if you have the best hand, try to get to a showdown asap and for as cheap as possible. Your tight preflop play will cushion this strategy because you probably had the best hand preflop which means most of the time you'll have the best hand on the river (if checked down 100% of the time).

IMHO Books and pokerstove and other programs are overrated as far as 'getting it'. You'll get it with training your brain to make poker decisions. Don't be lazy! Ask yourself a couple of questions before every decision. Like, do I have the best hand most of the time? Yes - bet! I'm constantly asking myself if now is a good time to bet.

Originally Posted by binky bee

Well, it does seem to be different!

I'm curious...how so? All seems common-sense to me.

[FWIW - i have no agenda here; jus' a-tryin to learn like you, and maybe earn a bit of karmic rakeback for helping out a fellow newbie]

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

I'm curious...how so? All seems common-sense to me.

[FWIW - i have no agenda here; jus' a-tryin to learn like you, and maybe earn a bit of karmic rakeback for helping out a fellow newbie]

I think it is for two reasons. 1 - it is more aggressive than the play I have had recommended to me before as a starting point (the theory being, play safe, learn, progress, open up). 2 - it is just straight in there with a game plan! And a pretty big one!

I am not discounting it at all and will return to the book. I will want to utilise it I think when I am comfortable with a basic standard of play, then use it to see if it does provide for a crushing solution to the lower stakes.

With all of that in mind, I am still totally worried about his theory. With my other commitments I do not anticipate playing enough hands for a high variance game. So safe is likely to be best for me.

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Everything I am about to say may be trivial and redundant, but I'm going to anyways.

Preflop is easy game. When folded to you, you should know exactly which hands to play and how to play them. Develop your own personal system and stick to what eventually works for you. My simplistic question that I ask myself is: Do I probably have the best hand right now? Yes - raise. No - fold. Play super tight UTG. like PP's, and AQ+.

You need to think less about your hand and think more about their hand. This is your number one priority. This is the same thing I just explained in the preflop questioning. Do the same postflop. When you're not totally sure if you have the best hand, try to get to a showdown asap and for as cheap as possible. Your tight preflop play will cushion this strategy because you probably had the best hand preflop which means most of the time you'll have the best hand on the river (if checked down 100% of the time).

IMHO Books and pokerstove and other programs are overrated as far as 'getting it'. You'll get it with training your brain to make poker decisions. Don't be lazy! Ask yourself a couple of questions before every decision. Like, do I have the best hand most of the time? Yes - bet! I'm constantly asking myself if now is a good time to bet.

Good solid advice which accords with a lot of other sources!

I'm working on it!

You should def pay attn to and take any advice you can from Drew. Unless of course it has to do with werewolf.

Look up Ace Poker Drills. It's a software for beginners that trains you in a "flashcard" style format about equity and preflop play. It may help you intuitively start understanding equity in a variety of situations. It also has a free equity calculator that in my opinion is much better than pokerstove.

Here it is... some of AOK's finest material.
Texas Holdem Starting Hands - 19 Hand Strategy

Originally Posted by 2Cord McCord

Look up Ace Poker Drills. It's a software for beginners that trains you in a "flashcard" style format about equity and preflop play. It may help you intuitively start understanding equity in a variety of situations. It also has a free equity calculator that in my opinion is much better than pokerstove.

Oh, now this looks like it is worth a go! Thanks!