Forming Your Own Range in STD bvb spot/Plugging IRC

was asked to post this in the BC and figured it was fairly informative/good fodder for discussion.

so discuss away:

<hmnfugitive> weaktight | Hand | 5As - $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem am I being retarded or is this ok?
<hmnfugitive> only 10 hands but idk what hes repping here
<hmnfugitive> hes like 47/20 with like 100 but sample size ldo
<hmnfugitive> 100 ats
<surviva> snap
<surviva> snap
<surviva> snap
<surviva> snap
<surviva> snap
<surviva> flat pre
<hmnfugitive> really
<surviva> <hmnfugitive> really
<surviva> you're ahead of his range
<surviva> IP
<hmnfugitive> so theres no point in 3bet bluffing
<surviva> so unless your 3b is for value
<hmnfugitive> ok i see
<surviva> form a range for how you play your preflop range against this player pre
<surviva> now
<surviva> do it
<hmnfugitive> Flat: [Axs - ATs] JTs QTs KTs QJs 56s-9Ts
<hmnfugitive> also middle pairs 66-99
<hmnfugitive> 3b: TT+ AK AQ AJ KQ
<hmnfugitive> and maybe 22 33 44 55
<hmnfugitive> fold everything else?
<surviva> you're only 3b bluffing like 24 combos?
<surviva> when his range is ATC and he's OOP?
<hmnfugitive> thats why i thought id add Axs for 3betting
<hmnfugitive> but you say thats too strong
<surviva> why would you add a hand you can call profitably?
<hmnfugitive> so what kinds of hand cant i call profitably but that either have blockers/are somewhat playable post
<hmnfugitive> like K8s K9s
<yaawn> cuz it's more profitable as a 3b
<surviva> if you can 3b bluff profitably with a huge range, then you don't need to turn a perfectly good hand into a bluff just so you bluff more
<hmnfugitive> so how do you increase ur 3b bluff range
<hmnfugitive> what kinds of hands are not profitable to call with
<hmnfugitive> against atc IP
<hmnfugitive> 27o?
<colddecked> what's your folding range?
<hmnfugitive> Everything - (3b range + flat range)
<colddecked> wouldn't it make sense to take part of your folding range and turn that into you bluffing range?
<surviva> yes
<surviva> it would
<hmnfugitive> right but how do you select that
<hmnfugitive> the hands in ur folding range
<surviva> seeing as how you could profitably call with like 3x's as many combos as you listed
<colddecked> so wouldn't you take the top part of it and add them into your 3b bluff range?
<surviva> say you're in a HU match
<surviva> villain is opening 80% of buttons
<hmnfugitive> ok
<hmnfugitive> you look at his fold to 3bet
<hmnfugitive> if hes folding alot you 3bet alot
<surviva> we would fold A9o to his open
<surviva> ?
* HarleyGuy ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers.)
<hmnfugitive> fuck no
<surviva> then why are we folding it here getting the same price against a similar range except now we're IP?
<hmnfugitive> so this is 3bet bluff range?
<surviva> what is a 3b bluff range?
<hmnfugitive> wouldnt we flat this because A9o is still ahead of his range
<surviva> yeah, i'd personally snap flat A9o here
<surviva> for the same reasons i would HU except now we're IP
<hmnfugitive> A2o?
<hmnfugitive> is slightly less valued and possibly behind his range
<surviva> now we're getting closer
<surviva> i'd personally call that here
<hmnfugitive> oh wow
<surviva> A2o is AT WORST 50/50 against ATC and we have position
<MrBucket> weird weird hand........
<hmnfugitive> reverse implied odds tho right if ace hits
<hmnfugitive> ok yea were ip
<surviva> lol reverse implied odds
<surviva> it's a single raised pot and we're IP
<surviva> unless we start like 3b shoving A-high flops, we're not gonna lose THAT many big pots
<hmnfugitive> ok
<surviva> blech
<surviva> brb
<surviva> playing for a split imo
<hmnfugitive> so K2o
<hmnfugitive> or like K8o
<hmnfugitive> some shit like that were we do have blockers
<surviva> yeah
<surviva> i'd flat K7o+ prolly
<hmnfugitive> lol really im really understimating the equity of these hands
<hmnfugitive> but you are assuming that I'm good post flop - even in position
<hmnfugitive> fml
<hmnfugitive> say he barrels alot
<hmnfugitive> but we miiss flop
<surviva> have a wide calling down multiple streets range
<hmnfugitive> lol
<surviva> have a rebluffing range
<surviva> have a folding range
<colddecked> lose 4 flips straight -> getting sucked out -> tilt 3 bi's, should stop wasting my run good on husng
<surviva> and have a very small calling one street range
<hmnfugitive> is ur rebluffing range > callign one street range?
<hmnfugitive> depends ldo
<hmnfugitive> so ok im starting to understand equity differences of those hands against atc
<hmnfugitive> but when do you change from flatting to 3b value?
<hmnfugitive> specifically pp
<hmnfugitive> like 88+?
<yaaawn-ing> no
<yaaawn-ing> 35
<yaaawn-ing> bout 35s
<yaaawn-ing> 35o
<luck> +lol
<hmnfugitive> 35o is ur 3bet value haha
<luck> tree fifty
<MrBucket> weaktight | Hand | 88 - $0.05/$0.10 Ante $0.02 No Limit Holdem
<yaaawn-ing> jokes aside 3betting 35o > 3betting 88 imo
<hmnfugitive> right 35o is ur bluff
<hmnfugitive> 88 ur stuck with his 3bet calling/ 4betting range
<hmnfugitive> which is awful
<yaaawn-ing> but i was trolling u by saying 35o
<yaaawn-ing> let's just be clear
<luck> not sure what
<yaaawn-ing> tree fiddy
<hmnfugitive> yep
<luck> questino is mr bucket
<luck> playing some league of legends
<luck> later
<hmnfugitive> TT+?
<surviva> maybe
<surviva> it depends
<hmnfugitive> on his reaction to 3bets
<surviva> just don't 3b/be confused with TT/JJ
<surviva> 'cause it's like SO profitable to flat with
<surviva> don't put yourself in a marginal spot with it
<hmnfugitive> so that means ur 3bet range versus this guy is heavily weighted twoards bluffs
<surviva> i wasn't NECESSARILY saying you shouldn't 3b TT/JJ
* Retrieving #flopturnriver modes...
<surviva> just saying you shouldn't just do it 'cause it's cool
<surviva> you should do it with a plan
<hmnfugitive> yea i understand
<hmnfugitive> if he flats alot of 3bets were likely to get into tough spots post
<hmnfugitive> so flatting is good there
<hmnfugitive> well in that case
<surviva> nah, if he flats a lot than 3b'ing is good
<surviva> him flatting a ton is the best spot for 3b'ing for thin value
<hmnfugitive> right if he DOESNT flat alot of 3bets flatting is good
<surviva> yeah unless he 4b's a lot
<hmnfugitive> ok
<surviva> then 3b/shoving can be priting money
<surviva> if he 3b/folds a ton then 3b'ing TT is retarded
<surviva> open/folds*
<hmnfugitive> right cuz hes only calling iwth AK KK QQ
<hmnfugitive> AA
<hmnfugitive> were fucked against that
<hmnfugitive> say he flats a ton
<hmnfugitive> we 3bet TT
<hmnfugitive> flop sucks dick
<hmnfugitive> AcJs3c
<hmnfugitive> or some shit like that
<hmnfugitive> he checks
<hmnfugitive> we obv check behind
<surviva> ...
<surviva> yeah?
<surviva> see how position is awesome?
<hmnfugitive> right but say he bets turn 2/3
<hmnfugitive> on like a 2d
<hmnfugitive> how easy of a fold is that
<surviva> like 2 out of 3 opportunities? or like 67% of the time?
<hmnfugitive> 67%
<surviva> i mean, either way it's an easy fold
<surviva> the flop was awful for your hand and awesome for his range
<surviva> and betting is retarded
<surviva> and checking makeshis range ahead of our
<surviva> s
<MrBucket> i like this table
<hmnfugitive> but arent players going to like "take a stab" at that showing of weakness?
<MrBucket> 200 bb deep with two fish on my right, two nits on my left
<hmnfugitive> idk i feel paranoid when i check with some showdown value
<hmnfugitive> i feel like im often folding the best hand, but hwen i call im always owned ldo
<surviva> well yeah, he could be betting light
<surviva> but we can't exploit that
<surviva> because his range is ahead of ours
<hmnfugitive> ok
<surviva> and we have THE BOTTOM of our range
<surviva> literally
<surviva> no worst hands in our range
<hmnfugitive> except our bluffs
<hmnfugitive> no wed cbet our bluffs this flop
<surviva> we bet the flops usually
<hmnfugitive> so nvm
<hmnfugitive> ok say instaead its mad dry with one over
<surviva> hard to exploit someone making the correct play
<hmnfugitive> Ac9s3h
<surviva> except to put him in a spot where he's unlikely to make the right play
<surviva> but in this spot we can't because betting the flop sucks
<hmnfugitive> right
<surviva> i'd still check back flop
<hmnfugitive> Ac9s3h check check turn 7d
<surviva> turn is closer to a call
<hmnfugitive> ok i see
<surviva> depending on how stabby villain is, how likely we think he is to bet river
<surviva> how wide his preflop range is
<hmnfugitive> makes sense
<hmnfugitive> ok thanks man i gtg
<MrBucket> yo
<surviva> no prblem
<surviva> sup?
<MrBucket> this entire conversation
<MrBucket> should be posted to bc

Since I horribly derailed the last thread concerning IRC (sorry about that), this might be a good place to repost some of the good strat discussions that take place in there from time to time.

tilt rant in irc http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...rc-173340.html

here's something decent from quite a while back, but why not
<suspenders> um
<suspenders> reads, where we're going we don't need reads
<suspenders> (but really we do)
<daven> 29-22-3, 60% attempt to steal, 50% fold to 3-bet, 45% cbet, 0% fold to cbet (0/4), 120 hands
<daven> is what my hud told me
<daven> he knows that sb is calling atc
<suspenders> PF standrad for you?
<daven> depends on table
<daven> usually i open fold
<daven> obviously, but sometimes...
<daven> the nits were respecting my ep opens although i guess it is a kinda marginal play to iso the sb
<daven> sorry, bb
<daven> like, i was ubernit this morning session
<daven> 2k hands at 15-11
<suspenders> let's say the river is a 2-5
<suspenders> what's your decision and sizing
<daven> ok, villain's range is good to know here
<daven> and that's kinda wide pre-flop
<daven> 22-JJ, scs, broadways, Axs
<daven> calling the flop with any piece/made hand and even some draws
<daven> turn he folds a lot
<daven> by the river the value is kinda thin
<daven> but without thinking i bet-fold
<daven> if 2-5
<daven> or Q-A
<daven> river J/9/8 i check behind
<daven> 7/6 i bet-call ldo
<daven> hand on, bet-call q
<daven> sizing for both is $13
<kiwiMark> daven: ouchies, re: riots
<kiwiMark> Anyway, I'm off now
* kiwiMark is now known as kiwiMark|drinks
<daven> have fun, watch out for upstairs windows
<suspenders> I don't get $13
<suspenders> are you trying to rep thin value b/c that's silly with our hand
<daven> um, it is thinner than it first appears
<suspenders> right but your bet sizing reps your hand
<suspenders> silly billy
<daven> yeah, true.
<daven> but nobody cr bluffs like ever
<daven> it also reps scared overpairs
<suspenders> right
<suspenders> which sucks if on like a 2-5 river he has 99/JJ/etc
<suspenders> hard to put you on Tx opening UTG+1
<daven> and also reps scared AK
<suspenders> and most players would assume you aren't getting 3 streets from JJ+
<daven> ok, so sizing then?
<daven> like, i check KK any river here
<daven> but i bet TT the same size
<suspenders> upper 20s probably
<suspenders> right
<suspenders> so ppl should look you up somewhat lightish here
<suspenders> with a bigger bet
<suspenders> smaller bet as I said reps hands like KK
<suspenders> I might bluff with those sizes if somehow I got here with one
<suspenders> I think that's a mistake
<daven> why?
<suspenders> b/c w/ $13 you're never bluffing
<daven> on a blank river he's only raising hands >> T9 here
<daven> and he's likely c-r all hands > T9
<suspenders> we're still discussing a 2-5 river
<suspenders> right
<daven> if i bet small with TT = max value line? or ?
<suspenders> no
<suspenders> look his range seems fairly week on a 2-5river
<suspenders> 88/99/JJ
<suspenders> stuff like that makes by far and away the most sense
<daven> 66/77
<daven> 66/77/88/99/JJ
<suspenders> ok fine w/e
<daven> or?
<suspenders> we're valuebetting
<daven> i guess he donks river with a good hand
<suspenders> so let's forget about 66/77
<suspenders> and talk about maximzing value from 88/99/JJ
<suspenders> perhaps even QQ
<suspenders> I mean your'e opening UTG+1, I'd flat QQ there
<daven> um, are we going to give him a range ?
<suspenders> lol
<suspenders> that's what we're doing boss

<daven> don't get a tat
<daven> get a scar
<daven> way cooler

<dranger_libertyinsandiego> and lolagreed daven
<dranger_libertyinsandiego> but the Corps is a lil more lenient on tats than brands lol
<daven> so, you like it as played? based on river - but we gotta think about other rivers?
<daven> so, ok with flop and turn play?
<daven> cos they own you and a brand is someone else may own you?
<suspenders> what else were you supposed to do
<daven> good, just checking!
<daven> ok, so river 3-5 are the only interesting scenarios then
<suspenders> nah J-A
<daven> J i check behind, Q i go broke
<suspenders> checking back the jack seems like a mistake
<daven> i just don't see him calling much on a jack river
<dranger_libertyinsandiego> ok
<daven> and it's bet-fold
<dranger_libertyinsandiego> g2g
<dranger_libertyinsandiego> ill post some pics of my new tat tomorrow probx
<dranger_libertyinsandiego> probs*
<dranger_libertyinsandiego> later

<suspenders> against 66-QQ on the river
<suspenders> on a 6TT7J board
<suspenders> with half the 88/99 combos taken out
<suspenders> you're dead even
<daven> sure, now, split that into 3
<daven> hands he calls, hands he folds, hands he raises
<daven> and add some JT/T9/AT
<daven> he calls QQ
<suspenders> really not expecting him to have those Tx hands ever
<suspenders> pretty stunned at ATo tbh
<daven> um, T9/JT/AT are in the agreed pre-flop range
<suspenders> "agreed"
<daven> so when do they disappear
<daven> 22-QQ/SCs/Broadways/Axs
<suspenders> disagree there
<daven> ok, i took silence as agreement
<suspenders> i mean I like that range were he on the button
<suspenders> I think it has to be tighter/stronger from the SB
<daven> hmm, i would if the bb wasn't dead money
<suspenders> I'd say that's a much better argument if he's the BB and fish is SB
<daven> true
<daven> ok, make it suited broadways
<suspenders> my main point is
<suspenders> no matter his range
<suspenders> when we bet the river it's clearly for value
<suspenders> but when you bet $13 on the river it's never as a bluff
<suspenders> so it's fairly easy to play perfectly against a $13 bet
<daven> i'm stuck on whether there is any value to be had now
<suspenders> 2-5 river
<daven> ja
<daven> ok,
<daven> JJ/QQ/99/JT/T9
<suspenders> 88=99
<daven> &88, yep
<suspenders> like if he has JJ
<suspenders> and you bet $13 on the river
<suspenders> you're repping a wider value-betting range than had you bet like $27
<suspenders> I think we can agree on that
<daven> which means i get more calls?
<suspenders> ?
<suspenders> why
<daven> cos villain isn't thinking about range so much, he's like, hmm, i gotta call
<daven> whereas vs $27, he's thinking uhoh i don't like 99 much anymore
<suspenders> you're never going to get anywhere in poker thinking like that
<suspenders> c
learly what your bet-size represents is huge here
<daven> yeah, and $13 reps weaker than $27 = he is calling the hands we get value against way more often
<suspenders> $13 does NOT REP WEAKER
* badgers has joined #flopturnriver
<daven> in his mind it does
<daven> badgers - a hand, assuming river 2-5, betsizing and why
<daven> http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...00.html#934793
<daven> also, villain is <daven> 29-22-3, 60% attempt to steal, 50% fold to 3-bet, 45% cbet, 0% fold to cbet (0/4), 120 hands
<oskar> (11:53:18 AM) dranger_libertyinsandiego: what do we think ^?
<badgers> the 2nd hand?
<oskar> like omg theres an eagale inside u
<suspenders> let's look at your "range" for betting $13 vs something in the upper 20s
<suspenders> gimme your range for betting $13
<daven> yep
<badgers> it's a pretty tough spot...
<badgers> basically the only T you get value from is JT
<suspenders> the hand with the river as is, is not a tough spot
<badgers> JJ+ probably 3bets preflop
<daven> ok, say 2-5 river
<badgers> ohhhh
<badgers> sorry :S
<daven> as played it's easy check behind
<daven> i think
<badgers> yeah I agree
<badgers> sorry too early in morning lol
<daven> so, river 4h
<daven> for example
<daven> we're debating bet sizing etc
<badgers> $24 minimum
<daven> and we gotta split his range into 3, right = calling range, folding range, cr shove range
<suspenders> I really doubt we're getting c/r'ed ever on the end
<daven> why? i'm lost here, you both agree, = i'm gonna learn something
<suspenders> dude
<daven> yeah, he's leading the river with his monsters most of the time
<suspenders> i've said it 20 times
<badgers> 99/88/jt/t8/t9
<suspenders> by betting small you reps hands you normally wouldn't be valuebetting
<suspenders> with a big size
<badgers> it looks more like air
<suspenders> ^^^^^^
<suspenders> and we've opened UTG+1
<suspenders> to Tx is not a part of our typical range
<daven> does it look more like air? is my question i guess
<suspenders> you're repping a hand like QQ by betting small, which is not what you want to represent against 88/99/JJ
<daven> like, assuming a typical villain here
<daven> he's more likely to bluff catch vs a big bet?
<badgers> it looks more like a full house/air given your EPopen
<badgers> he may fold slightly more frequently to a big bet
<suspenders> not likely to bluffcatch, but your range is crazy polarized
<suspenders> with a big bet
<badgers> but not enough to make up for the time that you win more by betting bigger
<daven> i dunno if i barrel AK here
<badgers> does he know that?
<suspenders> probably should barrel a lot here
<suspenders> EP open against his SB calling range
<daven> i probably don't 3-barrel air enough
<suspenders> seems like a pretty simple spot of our range is lolstronger than his
<daven> yeah, we agree on everything but sizing
<daven> and i'm starting to get it
<daven> he's calling JJ both sizes, same with JT/T9
<badgers> idk if I would barrel AK here, it's hard to get him to fold 88/99 when he picks up the gutshot and I think that's a decent part of his range
<daven> QQ on river?
<badgers> unless we plan on 3barrelling a lot but I would want more reads before I did that
<daven> play
<badgers> same thing
<badgers> $24
<badgers> min
<badgers> oh wait
<daven> even when our range suddenly became weaker against his?
<badgers> idk it depends if he's bad enough to call Tx here
<daven> cos there are twice as many Tx hands
<badgers> which he is apparently
<badgers> preflop I mean
<daven> 9T/TJ mostly, and AT, maybe Kts/QTs
<daven> TT
<daven> i check QQ behind, awful?
<badgers> no i think it's ok
<suspenders> if you check back QQ then you'll def want to bet big with Tx
<suspenders> I'd bet $27+ with Tx/boats/air and $9 with JJ-AA
<suspenders> this is on the low-card river
<daven> I'm going to post the low card version in FTR FR forum
<suspenders> lol
<badgers> I guess he pretty much never has air here
<daven> cos i definitely gained something from this
<badgers> so vbetting JJ is fine
<badgers> since he'll never turn a hand into a bluff
<badgers> and we're marginally ahead of his range
<suspenders> basically with JJ-AA on the river I'd bet w/e size I bet on the turn
<badgers> 79/78 also possible
<daven> 89 also then
<badgers> as is like A6/86/96
<badgers> some combos
<suspenders> nah
<suspenders> i mean flatting from the sb against EP open with those seems like a stretch
<badgers> 86s can definitely play this way
<suspenders> 78/89 work postflop, but should be discount PF a bit
<daven> 29-22
<badgers> I'm not really thinking offsuit
<daven> suited for sure
<suspenders> you'd get better advice in the SH forum
<suspenders> sowwy but it's true
<daven> but the mod would move the hand...
<suspenders> cuz this is a creative kind of spot
<suspenders> ya I'm not saying to do it
<suspenders> this is one of dem outside the box kinda thangs
<daven> ok, another one that's kinda similar
<daven> but completely different