*** Official Putin Started Shootin' Thread ***

[OngBonga]

There's probably that many nations who recognise Crimea as Russian. That doesn't really change the discussion about whether Crimea belongs to Russia.

I don't want to keep coming across as a Putin apologist but I think we should be careful about our language, just as Putin should be when he implies nuclear escalation. I don't believe that Russian policy is to exterminate Ukrainians, and I don't believe Russian soldiers would be willing to indiscriminately kill Ukrainians, except maybe in the case of collateral damage resulting from a clear military objective.

Genocide happens when ethnic people hate each other., and one has a significant dominance over the other. In this case, the genociders are motivated to kill by hatred. Before the war, Russian and Ukrainians considered themselves Slav brothers. I don't think you could find enough Russian soldiers willing to carry out a policy of genocide. There is no reason for a Russian to hate a Ukrainian just for being Ukrainian. The Russian solider knows the Ukrainian is defending his home.

The only way I can see genocide happening is if those carrying it out are unaware of the true objective, or that a small group of extreme loyalists to Putin are carrying out atrocities. Genocide is a policy, it's not an accident of war. You have to do more than show an atrocity happened, you have to show it was intended that way.

[Poopadoop]

Before the war, Russian and Ukrainians considered themselves Slav brothers.

Well, they didn't let that stop them from massacring Poles in WWII, so there's that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

[OngBonga]

Well, they didn't let that stop them from massacring Poles in WWII, so there's that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Yeah their secret police (NKVD) carried these atrocities out, not regular Soviet soldiers. So you're actually supporting my argument. Only extreme loyalists could carry out genocide. Now does Putin have loyalists made of the same stuff Stalin had? Does Putin command the same respect and authority?

[Poopadoop]

Yeah their secret police (NKVD) carried these atrocities out, not regular Soviet soldiers. So you're actually supporting my argument. Only extreme loyalists could carry out genocide. Now does Putin have loyalists made of the same stuff Stalin had? Does Putin command the same respect and authority?

So the Holocaust wasn't a real genocide because it was mostly carried out by the SS and Gestapo, who were fiercely loyal to Hitler? I didn't know that it had to have unanimous approval among the population or it didn't count. Oh well, Holocaust happens...

It really doesn't matter which individuals are doing the genociding, if they're getting direction from the top and following it, or, if they're doing it on their own initiative and their superiors are just looking the other way, it amounts to the same thing.

How many Russian soldiers have been court-martialed for executing civilians? I'm guessing it's a number somewhere between zero and none.

[OngBonga]

Genocide is basically the worst of the war crimes. It's worse than ethnic cleansing because the intention here is simply to drive a population from a territory, usually by means of brute force but it's a step down from genocide where you're not even giving them a genuine chance to leave. Genocide, that's where you round up Jews, gays and anyone else you don't like, and gas them. That's not trying to drive a population away from a territory, that's a clear policy to exterminate people based purely on their identity.

Ethnic cleansing is something many people might be turning a blind eye to, if and when Ukraine retake Crimea and evict the Russian population. You might want to be careful what moral standards you set right now, because the side you support might well have to cross those lines too if they are to achieve their military objectives.

War is shit.

[Poopadoop]

Genocide is basically the worst of the war crimes. It's worse than ethnic cleansing because the intention here is simply to drive a population from a territory,

What's the word for taking children from a combat zone and back into your own country. Ethnic borrowing?

Because that's what Russia has been doing.

Ethnic cleansing is something many people might be turning a blind eye to, if and when Ukraine retake Crimea and evict the Russian population. You might want to be careful what moral standards you set right now, because the side you support might well have to cross those lines too if they are to achieve their military objectives.

So you think if Ukraine does ethnic cleansing I'd be ok with it because it's Ukraine doing it? Huh?


Really it's kind of pointless arguing over semantics of how big a cunt Putin is. Ok, let's say he isn't as bad as Hitler or Stalin because he either doesn't have the power or he doesn't want to. Great, let's give him a pass then.