Quote Originally Posted by mojo
Should we, the citizens of this society, be outraged that the police response to a benign situation (the guy was literally asleep when they arrived) resulted in death? Yes.
I agree. This is cause for outrage. But don't punish society by making the streets less safe. Take the badges off these cops, prosecute them if necessary. Send the message that they won't get away with being irresponsible and trigger happy. But police still need to be able to deal with someone drunk at the wheel of the car. In the UK, that's grounds for arrest. If they simply arrested him, let him sleep it off in a cell, and dealt with him in the morning, this would be no problem.

The communities that are persecuted by police are in fear of their lives with every police interaction.
If I were a cop in USA, I'd live in fear of my life with every interaction with the public. Guns are the problem here. If the population is armed, then the police need to be.

That puts them in the psychological position to assume they have the choice to die in police custody or to maybe live if they can get away from that situation.
I find it hard to believe this is a common occurrence. Most people if they fear for their lives will simply comply, act very passively, they're not going to leg it or fight armed cops. People shouldn't be afraid of police, assuming they are not criminals, and if they are then that is a problem that needs addressing. But as I said before, it can't come at the cost of taking police off the streets altogether. That doesn't make people safer. Most people who get shot by police needed shooting because they were a serious threat to other people. The police should be doing everything possible to ensure people who don't deserve to be shot don't get shot. Sometimes it will inevitably happen, and when it does, it gets massive media attention.

As you describe that incident, then there is no way this man should have been shot. He should have been quickly arrested and left in a cell overnight. So the policing here seems very much lacking in competence. That needs addressing, no question.

But the greater problem - the root of the problem - is the systematic criminalization of black culture and other counter cultures by the legislature.
You refer to this a lot, and while I'm not arguing with you, all I'm aware of is cannabis, which is no longer treated with the same degree of gravity in USA (for the most part, best I can tell). What other racist laws exist? I'm almost certain this is not a problem in the UK. Cannabis laws here discriminate against a fuck ton of white people as well as black people. Weed isn't really black culture, it's human culture.

Law should be easier to change than the behaviour of individual police.

If you insist on reading my questions and explorations as though I'm trying to trick you into saying abolish the police, then you're going to fail to see my actual point.
I appreciate you're not saying abolish the police, oskar said that, and that's why we're talking about it. You seem to be saying things that I agree with... reform. Where we disagree is the need for an active police force. You were the one who pointed out ancient civilisations didn't have police forces. I've argued you can't compare civilisations. I'm saying we need a police force, and I can't really figure out if you agree or disagree because you're so defensive when I mention the word "abolish".

I'm trying to get to the heart of what the police want and what we as a society want from the police.
We should all want the same thing... law and order, public safety, a civilised society.

That's one of the most astoundingly incorrect things you've ever said.
I mean it's like blaming soldiers for the atrocities of war. The crimes are committed by those pulling the strings, not the puppets.