Christianity could be a higher order way of organizing lives

[oskar]

wtf...
I asked you at least three times to give me an example where scripture is a better tool than logic, and the best you could give me was something about communal prayer.
Anything. Let's say your cousin is a drug addict and we want to get her cleaned up. Route A: appeal to scripture. Route B: intervention and rehab.
idk what you were talking about, because I personally can't think of anything where scripture would be helpful in any way. That's why I asked you for examples... over and over again.

[wufwugy]

I asked you at least three times to give me an example where scripture is a better tool than logic.

I did provide this. I approached the idea from a couple different ways, and the way I most specifically provided what you asked for is explaining that when my family uses logic to try to solve a specific problem, they fail, yet when they use the Bible, they succeed.

Nobody is saying that the Bible provides more logic than one can logic by himself. It doesn't. This thread is about the observation that people are people, that even if logic and reason are great in theory, in practice, people have deep flaws when trying to use it.

[oskar]

I did provide this. I approached the idea from a couple different ways, and the way I most specifically provided what you asked for is explaining that when my family uses logic to try to solve a specific problem, they fail, yet when they use the Bible, they succeed.

What problem?
give me an example.
I don't mean to ask you about your private life, so just give me a hypothetical.

If I don't know what you're talking about I can't say if there's no way to convey the solution to the problem through logic.

[wufwugy]

What problem?
give me an example.
I don't mean to ask you about your private life, so just give me a hypothetical.

If I don't know what you're talking about I can't say if there's no way to convey the solution to the problem through logic.

You CAN convey the solution to the problem through logic, but that's different than if the person conveyed to would be persuaded by it.

As I discussed about my family. I have put a good deal of effort into doing exactly that, and the results are of no change in perspective by them. YET when I started doing the same thing through the lens of the Bible, perspectives began changing.

[wufwugy]

Wife asks do I look fat in these jeans

Husband says yes

Wife gets angry

Husband says you asked you want the truth

Wife gets angrier

Wife says you always do this you're always a jerk

Husband says you always do this you're a bitch

It escalates and escalates.

Then a friend shows up and sees the escalated conflict

The friend gets irritated that the husband and wife would do this in front of people and eventually attempts to bring in logic to bed the situation down.

The husband and wife want nothing of it. The wife points the finger at the husband for being wrong and the husband points the finger at the wife for being wrong.

Now, imagine they are both devoted Christians who view the Bible as greater than their own egos, and instead the same situation happens yet the friend brings out the Bible and explains the same logic through the lens of Jesus or Moses or a parable. Then the husband and wife filter that logic through the authority that is God (in their minds) instead of through the lens that is the natural homo sapien that naturally protects the ego.

[Poopadoop]

Or, he could just hit the husband with the Bible for being such a fucking idiot that he doesn't understand women at a grade 1 level.

Srsly, Oskar you are asking him a different question than the one he's talking about. You're right because you're talking about how you don't need religion to have a moral code, and he's right because he's saying a lot of people respect a moral code that's based on Jebus but not one that is based on logic and reason alone.

[wufwugy]

Srsly, Oskar you are asking him a different question than the one he's talking about. You're right because you're talking about how you don't need religion to have a moral code, and he's right because he's saying a lot of people respect a moral code that's based on Jebus but not one that is based on logic and reason alone.

I tend to think that maybe some people can successfully navigate the world through their own logic. I don't see much evidence that this is the average, though.

[oskar]

Srsly, Oskar you are asking him a different question than the one he's talking about. You're right because you're talking about how you don't need religion to have a moral code, and he's right because he's saying a lot of people respect a moral code that's based on Jebus but not one that is based on logic and reason alone.

Most of the moral code that's in the bible is being dismissed by most christians. The criteria by which they select what they choose to apply and what they choose to dismiss is based on logic, their own sense of morality and the zeitgeist.

[oskar]

Now, imagine they are both devoted Christians who view the Bible as greater than their own egos, and instead the same situation happens yet the friend brings out the Bible and explains the same logic through the lens of Jesus or Moses or a parable. Then the husband and wife filter that logic through the authority that is God (in their minds) instead of through the lens that is the natural homo sapien that naturally protects the ego.

If you could actually find a parable from the bible that works here I'd be genuinely impressed. If you can, maybe that's something to tag on as something they can relate to. It's always good to have an analogy the person can relate to, but it's immaterial if that example comes from scripture or the carphone warehouse.

Yes, a lot of ignorant shit is perpetuated in the name of religions, but not disproportionately so. Humans do ignorant shit all the damn time, often not in the name of religion.

I called out spoon on it so I have to call you out too. You could plug in any two things in this statement to condone anything. The only way this could be valid is if you can show that the shitty things that happen because of religion would happen without religion as well, which is a hard stance to take if you think about circumcision, fgm and all the shit that went down in the middle ages.

[wufwugy]

If you could actually find a parable from the bible that works here I'd be genuinely impressed.

Cain and Abel works.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I called out spoon on it so I have to call you out too. You could plug in any two things in this statement to condone anything, so it can't be valid.

That's not the reason I condone religion.
That's a statement that points out people who cite the negative consequences of religion often ignore the negative consequences which are not of religion.
If you're going to say religion is bad because it has negative consequences, then I ask, "compared to what?"
Naziism was anti-religious, as was Stalinism. Neither exactly great examples of positive consequences.

The reason I condone religion is the other post on the subject, that even if it only helps some people be better people for a few hours a week, then it's fine.
The only counter is to show that there is a net increase in negative effects which counters this positive. I'm not seeing it.