The Wall

[CoccoBill]

Bolded is monumentally false. "everything we got" would include securing the southern border, over which tons and tons and tons of illicit drugs come into the country. It's like if someone broke into your car every single night. You tried calling the cops, you tried using an alarm, you tried security cameras in your driveway, and many other measures. You can't say you're given it "everything you got" until you try locking your car door at night.

...since a locked car has never been broken into? Building a wall would probably hinder drug trafficking by land from the south, but do nothing about any other direction, nor drugs coming by air, sea, tunnels or manufactured locally. If you think a wall would solve the problem, or even make a significant dent, it's you who's delusional. As long as there's demand there's going to be supply. It's practically impossible to even keep prisons drug free, how on earth do you think it's possible to do for an entire huge country?

So who's job is it to seek justice for that victimization? Who's job is it to protect others from becoming victims?

There's a massive correlation with drug abuse and social status. Diverting some of that drug war money to welfare, medical and rehabilitation would imo be the best way to help the victims.

Nice link...the fact remains that less than 5% of prison inmates, less than 0.1% at the federal level, are in jail just for possessing drugs. The idea that massive expenditures in the war on drugs would disappear if they were legalized has no basis in reality.

As has been said many times already, this isn't just about possession charges but all drug related crime. How big is the black market for alcohol in the United States? How many deaths per year by competing alcohol gangs? How about during alcohol prohibition times?

Ok, but there is tax income from alcohol and tobacco. That doesn't mean we have to apply that standard to every substance there is. If we agree that the net effect is negative, and a burden......why do you support adding ANOTHER burden? If it's your position that it's possible for a burden to become so large it's unsustainable....why would you move toward that?

That's exactly the point, without taxation alcohol and tobacco would be an enormous financial burden now. By lifting the prohibition on alcohol and starting controlled distribution and taxing of it the problem has been alleviated tremendously. Same can be done for all of the rest.

Fake news!!
Alcohol consumption dropped almost 30 percent at the onset of prohibition. Illegality was a deterrent.
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/16/op...a-success.html

Right. What about after the onset.

"By the greatest majority of indicators, the biggest drops in alcohol consumption and alcohol problems actually came before national prohibition went into effect. Those drops continued for about the first two years of Prohibition and then alcohol consumption began to rise. By 1926, most of the problems were worse than they had been before Prohibition went into effect and there were a number of new problems -- such as a drinking epidemic among children -- that had not been there before."

http://www.druglibrary.org/prohibitionresults1.htm

Except for addictive-ness and higher risk of overdose.

As already evidenced by the stats you've also been quoting, alcohol for example is right up there with the big boys in addictiveness, as are a lot of prescription drugs. Overdoses then?

"Prescription drug abuse causes the largest percentage of deaths from drug overdosing. Of the 22,400 drug overdose deaths in the US in 2005, opioid painkillers were the most commonly found drug, accounting for 38.2% of these deaths."

http://www.drugfreeworld.org/drugfac...tatistics.html

You'll get no argument from me there. I believe the entire psychiatric community are just legalized drug dealers. If that's a problem, we should fix it. We shouldn't just say "fuck it, make everything legal then". You're driving in the wrong direction.

I hope you'll realize that's a purely emotional response based on fear and morality, not on facts. I used to be passionately against drugs and all for ever harsher measures too.

[BananaStand]

If you think a wall would solve the problem, or even make a significant dent, it's you who's delusional

One of us is definitely delusional. And you're the one who *imagined* that I would support a wall. You do the math.

There's a massive correlation with drug abuse and social status. Diverting some of that drug war money to welfare, medical and rehabilitation would imo be the best way to help the victims.

I would bet a lung that the vast majority of junkies in the USA are already on welfare.

As has been said many times already, this isn't just about possession charges but all drug related crime. How big is the black market for alcohol in the United States? How many deaths per year by competing alcohol gangs? How about during alcohol prohibition times?

That's a false narrative. Organized crime, and it's associated violence, was heavily on the rise prior to prohibition. Alcohol just gave them something to do. If alcohol were kept legal, they would have wreaked havoc through stolen goods, prostitution, or gambling.

Right. What about after the onset.

You mean AFTER a black market had time to develop, and the ways to access it had spread through word of mouth (it's not like they could text each other, or post on craigslist, back then).....yeah, ok, it went up. That's kinda my point. It went down when everyone thought it was gone, and illegal, and had no access to it. As that changed, usage went up. So, what do you think will happen if they started selling 8-balls at Trader Joe's?

As already evidenced by the stats you've also been quoting, alcohol for example is right up there with the big boys in addictiveness, as are a lot of prescription drugs. Overdoses then?

You're making my point for me again. Prescription drugs are legal, but tightly controlled. The government decides who can sell them and who can't. Sales are heavily regulated, and taxed, exactly the way you're proposing we do for other hard drugs.

Yet there is STILL a black market for those substances. There are STILL people going to jail. There is STILL violence. People are STILL getting addicted and abusing the drug. Open any newspaper and you'll find talk about the opioid epidemic, or the opioid crisis in America. That's a drug that is exactly as legal as you're suggesting coke and heroin should be. And it's going poorly.

[CoccoBill]

One of us is definitely delusional. And you're the one who *imagined* that I would support a wall. You do the math.

Right, it was really a stretch in a topic called "The Wall" in response to your comment about securing the southern border.

That's a false narrative. Organized crime, and it's associated violence, was heavily on the rise prior to prohibition. Alcohol just gave them something to do. If alcohol were kept legal, they would have wreaked havoc through stolen goods, prostitution, or gambling.

Why do you want to give them something to do? According to Ken Burns's documentary Prohibition, the federal government lost $11 billion in lost tax revenue alone during the prohibition. Drug trade is the 2nd largest market on the planet, I don't think that's a good thing. At least make the bastards innovate rather than handing them a business model.

You mean AFTER a black market had time to develop, and the ways to access it had spread through word of mouth (it's not like they could text each other, or post on craigslist, back then).....yeah, ok, it went up. That's kinda my point. It went down when everyone thought it was gone, and illegal, and had no access to it. As that changed, usage went up. So, what do you think will happen if they started selling 8-balls at Trader Joe's?

I would think it's much more important what the long term effects are rather than some temporary effect. Personally, I don't think anything significant would happen, as nothing negative has happened in e.g. Holland, Portugal, or the US after repealing the prohibition. You have still to demonstrate why something would happen.

You're making my point for me again. Prescription drugs are legal, but tightly controlled. The government decides who can sell them and who can't. Sales are heavily regulated, and taxed, exactly the way you're proposing we do for other hard drugs.

Yet there is STILL a black market for those substances. There are STILL people going to jail. There is STILL violence. People are STILL getting addicted and abusing the drug. Open any newspaper and you'll find talk about the opioid epidemic, or the opioid crisis in America. That's a drug that is exactly as legal as you're suggesting coke and heroin should be. And it's going poorly.

Well great if your point has all along been the same as mine, I must have misunderstood!

So if these things are STILL happening, how's that drug war stuff workin' out for ya? Like I said, it's not like we can ever completely stop any of that as long as there's demand. Those who want drugs will get them where they can get it the cheapest and easiest, unless the underlying issues driving people to narcotics are dealt with.



In other news: http://thefreethoughtproject.com/2-y...drugs-plummet/

[BananaStand]

Right, it was really a stretch in a topic called "The Wall" in response to your comment about securing the southern border.

I don't know man, I've only stated my opposition to the wall like nine times in this thread.

Why do you want to give them something to do?

I don't. I want to eradicate them, and put them in jail. It's easier to do that when their activities are crimes.

I don't think anything significant would happen, as nothing negative has happened in e.g. Holland, Portugal, or the US after repealing the prohibition.

Again, drugs are not legal in Portugal! They are de-criminalized. That's something you would do if there were unfair, or disproportionate punishments for the lowest level offenders. We don't have that problem in America. Only 247 people are in federal prison for drug possession.

You have still to demonstrate why something would happen.

Because it's there. Alcohol consumption nearly doubled from 1935-1945 (AFTER prohibition). Once booze hit the store shelves again, people drank more. If Trader Joes sold 8-balls.....people would buy them.

So if these things are STILL happening, how's that drug war stuff workin' out for ya?

It could be going a lot worse. The legality of prescription opiods is part of what's fueling the epidemic. Making more stuff legal would obviously make it worse.