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 Originally Posted by surviva316
I don't know why this needs to be divisive. I don't know what it's like to be a woman. When an issue comes up that concerns women, I open my ears to women because they have a special perspective on the discussion. I don't take this as an insult to my intelligence.
As an example that isn't directly relevant to intersectionality, I've way too often seen people have extremely strong opinions on what rape victims would "logically" do in certain situations or how it should be handled. These are opinions that I've almost never seen shared by victims of sexual assault and that isn't borne out by any research on the issue. If these self-proclaimed "rationals" would shut up for a second on their completely inane speculation, they would learn a thing or two about what it's like to be a rape victim--perspectives that aren't much likely to be gained by sitting in an echo chamber with fellow non-rape victims.
This is an extreme example, but just trying to illustrate that it's extremely reasonable to recognize blind spots in your own perspective and listen to people who have a special insight into that particular topic. White males very often get offended by this perceived accusation of ignorance or feel censored by being shut out of the conversation, but it's just a fact of life: if you're not black, the best way you can learn about what it's like to be black is to shut up and listen, and so on for being gay, a woman, a religious minority or anything else. This perspective on the issue shouldn't divide us. If you want to enter the conversation, just listen for a bit.
Agree. For obvious reasons, it's important to hear each side.
Adjunct: I think people from the "non-victim" side have been wrongly shutdown in their opinions. Regarding rape, it has gotten to the point where it is "wrong" to say that women are more likely to get raped if they get blackout drunk around nothing but horny teenagers. We're allowed to have the conversation about how men who rape are bad, but we're not allowed to have the conversation that women are in part responsible for keeping themselves safe.
Instances of legitimate oppression are much rarer going one way than the other because one group is in power and the other isn't (talk about being dangerously reductive with my wording, yikes!). I'm part Irish and part Italian (essentially 0% Anglo). In history class, I learned about the shit "my people" went through in Boston and New York and Philadelphia at the turn of the century and saw racist (or ethnicist) cartoons and caricatures that were published in papers, and I laughed them off. Hell, I even had to stop drinking due to personal problems with alcohol, and I don't bat an eye at people making Irish drinking jokes.
It's not because I have enviably thick skin; it's because it's so alien and silly to me. No one actually thinks less of Irish people these days, no one actually passes over my resume because I have a lot of vowels in my name, I don't actually feel like I need to hide the fact that I had a drinking problem lest it legitimize hurtful stereotypes about "my people," etc. I just scoff it off with my typical white-male "Like you could fucking say anything that could hurt me" hubris. Same for when I was a white dude living in Harlem. I got angrily called a cracker once or twice; nothing more than a funny story for me to share. It's not a double standard for me to expect otherwise the other way around.
History has shown us one way for oppressed groups (like the Irish once were) to become no longer oppressed groups (like the Irish are today): regardless of the oppression, take personal responsibility, stop being a victim, and start embracing the values that lead to a better life. The Irish, Italian, and Jews have done this at large. A small proportion of blacks have done this. I would argue that it is MUCH harder for blacks to do it, because racism against them has been more institutionalized*, but that doesn't change the fact that we only know of one way out of this hole. That which digs the hole even further is the cult of victimization. We should listen to grievances and try to end grievances, but we've gone way beyond that when it comes to a handful of non-white, non-male demographics.
Here's an example for how out to lunch we've gotten: I once worked with a black guy and we had no issues with each other. He misheard something I said and thought I was being racist. What was his reaction? He threw a fit. He contacted several bosses and threatened to quit if I wasn't fired. I was in a whole heap of trouble at first. But I explained things to my bosses (who were also black) and they agreed that I was misheard and that I didn't say anything racist. Of course, from the beginning I knew that the only thing that mattered was what the offended person thought and that I would be fired if he remained mad, so as soon as I heard he was mad, I pulled down my pants and apologized profusely. I hadn't done anything wrong, but I ended up virtually apologizing for him having wrongly heard me and explicitly that I didn't understand what it was like being black in such a racist world. It was nonsense, but at the time I believed it.
Anyways, the reason I'm telling you this story is because it is an example of why black communities continue to have it so hard. His behavior was very standard where he grew up. His starting point was that whenever there is a question, he is the victim of racial oppression. A sign that his community was climbing itself out of this hole would be if he did not throw a fit and did not blame others, and instead tried to prove that racism has no merit. It's the Booker T Washington thing, more or less. But of course his name is heresy in some circles.
I actually feel sorry for the black guy I worked with, because he was a nice guy and he and I became better friends after the incident. He didn't mean any harm and he was very pleased when things resolved nicely. Even though I was a victim of the cultural norms of victimization that were knocked into him all his life since I very nearly lost my job over it, he was probably even more of a victim of it since it probably clouds his every social interaction.
It would be totally fine if the standard was to express grievances. But the standard today for way too many is to be perpetual victims. This hurts us all. It hurts those it's trying to help the most.
*The institutionalization is thought to be from racist white southern types, but it's not. It hasn't been from that demographic for many decades. The institutional racism that harms blacks so intensely these days is the same that Thomas Sowell discusses turned his safe and rapidly growing in prosperity Harlem home of his youth into the gangland it is today: the welfare state directed at keeping blacks dependent and the drug war.
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