No theme werewolf gameplay thread

[baudib]

It's a team game and there's so much subjectivity to everything else.

For villagers, bolding a wolf is great but what's the equivalent as a wolf? Bolding a villager is pretty easy. How about getting a villager lynched? But sometimes as a wolf, it's better to stay out of the fray.

It'll take a long time before we get real meaningful sample size anyway, this is mostly just for bragging rights.

[OngBonga]

Yeah a list of wins and losses as wolf/villager/3rd party/mods would be interesting, but anything more than that is probably overkill. I don't really care how many times I've bolded a wolf. If that's a measure of success then next game I'm bolding everyone d1 and bragging that I soulread the entire wolfteam d1, and the stats will agree with me.

[wufwugy]

Hey WrongBonga, it's called a ratio.

And if we're going for bragging rights, W/L will tell us nothing. Actually, not so much nothing as less than nothing because it would likely give the opposite impression in many ways

[OngBonga]

W/L will tell us nothing.

I disagree. It's a team game. I'm all about winning. While it's mildly satisfying to have a great individual performance while being on the losing side, I'd rather play like shit and win. I'd rather be rilla than keith in this game.

[Luco]

I CCL about win / loss as long as it's entertaining

[wufwugy]

I disagree. It's a team game. I'm all about winning. While it's mildly satisfying to have a great individual performance while being on the losing side, I'd rather play like shit and win. I'd rather be rilla than keith in this game.

That's funny because I'm sure Rilla would prefer to be Keith in this game

Besides, how does winning matter? Nobody remembers who wins, people only remember who pulls sickness. We try to win to keep the spirit and propel in the right direction, but nobody calls Gator goatwolf because of his wolf wins but because he pulls sickness as a wolf

[wufwugy]

I guarantee Gator has more wolf losses than wins too. Or could be tied at like 3v3 or something. Gizmo probably has like 3v1 wolf wins. I'm 0v1 in a game that taught me why the seer blows

[wufwugy]

Which brings me to a different point: seer is the craven's weapon. If you want to dominate some fool because you think he's a wolf then vig him, if you want known villagers then revive some deadeers. All the seer freaking does is disincentivize great play since the punishment for great play is to get seered

I'm still a little sore over my one wolf game. The strategy was in full on blast mode and our epic victory was all but cinched if the freaking seer couldn't decide that because I was unlynchable, it would be best to seer me. Shit sucks. Rilla played a great wolf then too

[wufwugy]

Was thinking about it the other day, and I think a ghost vigilante is way too powerful. If this game was ghost vigs, I think the village wins. But I do like the idea of one-off ghost seers. What I mean is that the dead thread chooses a player each night to look up and they choose which player that knowledge goes to. But they can never choose the same players twice. This goes on until every player has either been looked up or given a look up, or if that's too pro-vil, then it goes on until something like three of the targeted players have died

[OngBonga]

I can only remember losing as a wolf here once. That was thanks to cbee. Can't even remember if we won or lost when hoopy seered me n1. I'm more interested in my win/loss ratio as wolf than villager. I suppose I'd be interested how many MVP's I could legitimately claim, but that's subjective at the best of times.

You're right that sickness matters, but we all remember the sickness, that's what reputation is for.

idk what wolf bolds will tell me, seeing as I can be very splashy with my vote. I suppose lynching wolves is worthy of note, or vig stats would be interesting, but ultimately what matters most to me is wolf win/loss, followed by villager win/loss.

[OngBonga]

A wolf lynch/mislynch ratio as villager would probably be the best measure of villager strength.

Wolf win/loss ratio best wolf measure, while a surviving wolf tally would also make for interesting comparisons.

[OngBonga]

Most nommed player would be another interesting comparison. I'd bet good money that the most common n1 nom is TLR.

[MadMojoMonkey]

One thing about giving the dead thread the power is that the special doesn't have to survive to end-game to make the most +EV use of the power.

The fewer targets, the better chance of using it correctly.

[wufwugy]

Honestly what I think would be better is if we created a handful of trophies and the mod of each game dished them out to who he thinks won them.

Awards could be like this

MVP - In this game it goes to Keybored

How The Fuck Did He Get Away With That?! award - Goes to OngBonga

So Close Yet So Far - goes to Keith or JKDS

If Only We'd Listened To Him - goes to Dhubermex or JKDS

Honorary Wuf - Luco

Honorary SDM - Mojo

Honorary BID - BID


Anyways, we could establish some specific awards with specific criteria then have like badges or something like Dhubs mentioned. That would work quite well IMO

[wufwugy]

How The Fuck Did He Get Away With That?! would go to the player whose team won and he successfully aided the win in the most ridiculous manner. For this game Ong would get it due to convincing everybody that he truly wanted Rilla dead

So Close Yet So Far would go to the villager when they lose and he got everything right but then got convinced otherwise, or who got half of things right and half of things wrong and the loss involved the wrong part. JKDS is a good example for this since he was super gung ho on the final wolves but eventually got convinced otherwise

If Only We'd Listened To Him goes to the villager when they lose who died while he got everything (or most everything) right. Dhubs is a great example of this

Honorary Wuf goes to the villager who gets many things wrong and ends up defending the fuck out of a wolf

Honorary SDM goes to the player whose team lost and he crashes and burns

Honorary BID goes to the player whose team lost partly because he checked out

Wolf Badges for every win as a wolf

[wufwugy]

MVP should be renamed to That Shit Was Sick, Kid in honor of one of the rare clear cut MVP's, Keybored

[BankItDrew]

I get Honorary BiD award? Fucking bull

[Keith]

how about the "why the fuck did we listen to him " award - gabe resulting in the luco lynch

[wufwugy]

^^I like it

[a500lbgorilla]

Pffft, I've been playing spreadsheet wolfhunter for 2+ years now and none of you are even close to the proper saber-metrics.

[a500lbgorilla]

Rilla played a great wolf then too

LOL I'm blushing. The only game I think I played well in was when cbee blew me out of the water. Before I opened up my playbook and started to feel a bit naked in these games.

[a500lbgorilla]

That's funny because I'm sure Rilla would prefer to be Keith in this game

Besides, how does winning matter? Nobody remembers who wins, people only remember who pulls sickness. We try to win to keep the spirit and propel in the right direction, but nobody calls Gator goatwolf because of his wolf wins but because he pulls sickness as a wolf

Also, if no one has noticed, Keith has been pretty next-level these past handful of bouts.

[Keith]

thanks rilla......I haven't played every game ....maybe taking time out rather than signing up for every game helps to step back and come at the games I do play with more enthusiasm.

[baudib]

I like Rilla's idea of tracking player tendencies by alignment in a Bill James way.

The problem with so many individual awards, I think, is that this is truly a team game and stressing individual performance seems counter-intuitive.

As a villager, you really 4 jobs:
1. Clear yourself
2. Clear other people
3. Find wolves
4. Get the wolves lynched

I think the postgame bitch sessions are a huge part of the fun of this game, and it's awesome when someone goes "I knew Players X, Y and Z were wolves." And Player Z can go, "Yeah but I got you mislynched on D1, so STFU."

I'd be interested in seeing how people fare at f5 and f3, obviously if you go deep and your team won, that's a significant performance.

[JKDS]

As a villager, you really 4 jobs:
1. Clear yourself
2. Clear other people
3. Find wolves
4. Get the wolves lynched

Someone teach me how to do 1). How I not get lynched when everyone is too afraid of wolf-jkds? Wolf jkds isnt even that amazing anymore compared to the lot of you! Stop lynching me! Im a villager, honest!

[wufwugy]

Protip from Ser Unlynchable: force them to feel bad or dumb about lynching you

[baudib]

i will appeal to emotion so JKDS won't lynch me

[baudib]

The thing I'd like to study about people's wolf games would be:
1. How often they vote their wolf bros
2. How often they vote off wagon
3. How often they hammer home the mislynch

again it's an issue of sample size but it'd be interesting to see

[JKDS]

i will appeal to emotion so JKDS won't lynch me

I couldnt figure out how to fight this in thread without sounding wolfy. But every possible ww argument has logical flaws. Further, appealing to emotion isnt even alignment indicative! I was so mad!!! Its like "appeal to emotion, appeal to emotion" and all i want to do is say "SHUT UP AND LISTEN TO ME". The response of course would be "appeal to emotion".

[JKDS]

With all this statistic stuff, so long as our "intro to ww" thread doesnt include a step saying "download the HUD wolftracker v2.0" then ok.

[baudib]

I couldnt figure out how to fight this in thread without sounding wolfy. But every possible ww argument has logical flaws. Further, appealing to emotion isnt even alignment indicative!

This is so true. Villagers can look wolfy, wolves can do villagery things. This game is like poker in so many ways, you need to find where people are in their range.

[JKDS]

I want to were the wolfs again, but I dont like the fast paced games of other sites. Halp

[wufwugy]

If Jewkids desires to were of the wolfs, he must bow before Wufmod (bestmod!) and delcare his blood right: Ruler of the Seven Games, King of Wolferos, Father of the Seers, Son of the Angels, Vigilantes Bane, Breaker of Maws, Unlynched and Unnommed, Maester of Strategy, and The Villager Who Was Promised

[BankItDrew]

Ignore wuf, he's trying to be melodramatic.

I'm down for a new game.

[Luco]

tldr wuf wants a beej

[MadMojoMonkey]

If no one else wants to mod a game, then I have some ideas. I can't remember who, but I thought someone mentioned a Nov/Dec game over the holidays. If a mod has ideas ready to roll, then I'm happy to wait until next year to offer to mod.

If people want to play now, and no one is jumping up to mod, then I have 2 formats I'm working on. Each is an attempt to re-balance against FTR's strong village trend.

***
1) Extra Wolf
4 W
1 angel
1 seer
1 vig
5 - 8 V


2) Confused Specials
3 W (1 reads V to seer, is vig-proof)
1 angel
1 seer
1 vig
1 unfortunately hairy V (reads W to seer)
5 - 8 V


I want my first modded game to be as straight-forward as possible, and that lends to 1). The changes made to 2) are extremely easy to implement, and no more complicated than a standard game.

I'm not certain that the vig-proof power on the special wolf is necessary. On the one hand, it adds a power to the wolves, which is good. On the other hand, the special wolf's power to read as V seems quite strong, and maybe also adding vig-proof is over doing it.

I know there are issues with a fully powered angel who can save any single target on every night. This will need to be resolved in either game format. If I'm going to mod, this will be resolved before I open a sign up thread.

[baudib]

i'd prefer a vanillaish game

ffs we had enough fancy mod gadgetry the last two

[MadMojoMonkey]

I can wait until after the weekend, and then maybe give a couple of days for other responses.

If no one volunteers to mod a game, then I will.

I'm interpreting baud's post as a vote for the 4-wolf game I outlined. (Correct me if I misread you, baud.)

[OngBonga]

I'll play ofc but I'm unlikely to be as gung ho as normal, I need a relaxing game so here's hoping I'm a regular boring villager.

[wufwugy]

id be good for one or two small posts a day

[Keith]

why do WW noobs think they have the experience to know that the game is broken and how to fix it. Thats why i don't think noobs should be game mods . they don't have the experience to know how situations are dealt with in the past or how the kinks they want to introduce alter the game. You said that you wanted to mod to see different strategies....read through the old dead thread and wolves threads for past games if thats what you want to see.In dhubers mod game he asked me and baud in PM how to deal with a situation that came up. that is where lack of experience shows up.

[dhubermex]

In dhubers mod game he asked me and baud in PM how to deal with a situation that came up. that is where lack of experience shows up.

True story and it was unfortunate that a game mod had to inconvenience players and drag them into the decision-making process.

As a WW fan I have mixed feelings on inexperienced mods.

On one hand Keith brings up a very valid point about how a WW n00b-mod can decrease players' enjoyment of a given match. On the other hand it's a lot of fun to mod a WW game, even considering the amount of work that goes into it. I think as long as the mod places the priority on players' enjoyment it has a reasonably good chance at working out well, but I'll respectfully defer to the views of more experienced WW players on this.

[OngBonga]

I can't say I really care all that much.

[MadMojoMonkey]

You'd think I was offering stabbings, Keith.

I'm offering to mod a game because people have expressed a desire to play and no one else has offered to mod.

I thought someone (I forget who) said they had a game lined up for Nov/Dec sometime. I wasn't expecting to even offer to mod until after that, presumably early next year. However, I have started to work on the game dynamics and I have something to offer.

If you think I have short-comings and things to learn, then you have can:
A) be rude and call names and ask rhetorical questions about noobs,
OR
B) be helpful, and point me in the right direction and alert me to things I need to be aware of.

Your move.

[wufwugy]

Keith's point is accurate, but beggars can't be choosers. We have a small group here and kinda need to take whichever mods we can get

Also, modding doesn't have to be that hard with a dead thread that isn't still technically playing. I have used dead thread consensus to make mod decisions before. I don't think there are that many fuckups a mod can do. When those fuckups are made, they probably have to do with modkills. Since it seems people have wide disagreement on modkill policy in the first place, that probably isn't the biggest deal. Example, if some others were modding the latest game, there may have been two modkills where I chose zero. But in the anon game, there were three modkills that I probably wouldn't have done, but that doesn't necessarily mean one is right and one is wrong. The games run regardless and we have fun

[wufwugy]

I think mmm would be just fine for a modding

[wufwugy]

Especially since he cares about fairness

[baudib]

I thought hoopy was modding?

[OngBonga]

hoopy too busy with ur mom.

[baudib]

i'm in a 51-player GoT mishmash so I'd rather not multitable.

if new game starts in a week+ I'll be in

[BankItDrew]

I think mmm would be just fine for a modding

This.

[OngBonga]

If drew can do it anyone can.

Wait...

[wufwugy]

What BID assumed modding would be like




What BID's actual modding experience was like




What BID assumed everybody else experienced during his modding




What we actually experienced

[OngBonga]

I remember when Gillian Anderson was hot.

[Hoopy]

I thought hoopy was modding?

I can still mod if you like.

My setup is based on trying to keep the game balanced but fun. Last game with no specials things got very frustrating/stagnant, but at the same time specials that are overpowered/unkillable just makes the game to easy for the village.

I've based the setup partly on "Ultimate Werewolf", which uses points values to keep things even.

If you like I can post the setup tomorrow when I'm back home.

[Hoopy]

hoopy too busy with ur mom.

She's a demanding lady!

[wufwugy]

Yes post your setup

Then we can have

A MODOFF!

MMM vs Hoops! Who will win the opportunity to mod!

[OngBonga]

She's a demanding lady!

I know.

[Hoopy]

Off the top of my head the main things are that while the seer is as normal there are a few things that can throw his looks off. Also the angel is reduced to a one shot power. This stops there being an outed seer and hidden angel for more than 1 night which is unbalanced imo.

[Hoopy]

Yes post your setup

Then we can have

A MODOFF!

There can be only one..........

[Hoopy]

Alright I pieced together what my setup was.

16 players total.

Seer - 1 lookup each night, only finds out if wolf or villager.

Priest - Once during the game choose to protect someone at night.

Tough Guy - If attacked at night survives for 24hrs the next day.

8 Villagers

Miller - Appears as a wolf to the seer.

Cursed - If attacked at night they become a wolf.

3 Wolves - 1 Kill per night.

Tough Guy, Miller and Cursed do not know their powers until they are activated/made clear.

Thoughts? I've tried to make it so a mass claim early on is difficult.

[wufwugy]

Heh I like it.

[wufwugy]

Cursed should probably know his role at the beginning. He should be told that his desired alignment is wolf. He can still be a part of a village win, but it is not a win for him

[wufwugy]

I like if the Priest could target for save each night, but only loses the power after it works. Making it just a one-off use means all he's doing is waiting for the seer to out and hoping it's not a fakeout or that the seer didn't hit the miller

[wufwugy]

Part of me wants to say that I like a Tough Guy who is unnommable no matter how many times he gets targeted, but he doesn't know it. He could only die by lynch and the wolves would have no nomming power to take him out. Nobody knowing who the Tough Guy is would make it kinda interesting since everybody might suspect they are the Tough Guy

[Keith]

don't like the only 1 protect feature. In effect it gives the wolves free rein to eat the better village players. if you want to stop an outed seer from being protected , just word it like that . i.e priest makes a save each night but cannot save an outed seer.Like wufs version of the tough guy as well.

[Hoopy]

Cursed should probably know his role at the beginning. He should be told that his desired alignment is wolf. He can still be a part of a village win, but it is not a win for him

I like it.

I like if the Priest could target for save each night, but only loses the power after it works. Making it just a one-off use means all he's doing is waiting for the seer to out and hoping it's not a fakeout or that the seer didn't hit the miller

Alright that seems better, otherwise it's a 1D role I guess.

Part of me wants to say that I like a Tough Guy who is unnommable no matter how many times he gets targeted, but he doesn't know it. He could only die by lynch and the wolves would have no nomming power to take him out. Nobody knowing who the Tough Guy is would make it kinda interesting since everybody might suspect they are the Tough Guy

That seems very powerful.

[baudib]

i prefer more fire power. more death is cool

vig >> angel/priest

why don't you just give the wolves specials

wolves get roleblockers or a vig

or give each side poisoners

[Hoopy]

why don't you just give the wolves specials

wolves get roleblockers or a vig

or give each side a poisoner

What does a poisoner do?

[baudib]

i talked about this in the dead thread

there's a village poisoner and a wolf poisoner

the village has a healer

at night, each poisoner picks a player to poison

the next day, the healer gets to choose which one to heal. the player not healed dies at end of day obviously.

this creates a lot of discussion, typically both sides will choose to poison a wolfy player.

if the village healer dies, the poisoners become straight up vigs

if the village poisoner dies, it becomes a level as typically the healer will always heal the poisoned player.

[wufwugy]

Poisoner is messy. It can work, but only if the mod wants a lot to do and the players want a very non-vanilla game

[wufwugy]

That seems very powerful.

It may not work, but could be used to replace an angel. Its power is sorta weird since nobody would be able to exploit it by much since nobody would know who it is, even the tough guy himself. it's the sort of thing i like because i like provoking players to look at things differently. but yeah, it may not fit

i like your structure with the cursed and priest changes i mentioned. we havent done a miller yet and cursed is a neat role. i very much enjoyed it when i played it

[OngBonga]

I definitely like not telling the miller, otherwise optimal play is to just claim d1, which simply confirms him as villager because a counterclaim would be stupid.

[baudib]

Miller definitely sounds cool. If you're an outed wolf you have some sorta last line of defense.

[baudib]

but seriously, more death. c'mon


n2 wolf vig