Re Entry Tournaments

[Credsfan03]

Are re entry tournaments bad for the game of poker? Many pros have came out and said that they feel re entries are bad because they give pros who can fire off multiple bullets a huge advantage over amateur players who can only afford to fire off one bullet. On the other hand you could argue that they are good for the game because they generate higher prize pools and people will play worse trying to build up a big stack fast knowing they can re enter if they bust. What are your views on this subject?

[PokerKing]

I think they are bad once they have replaced all normal tours, and we only have re-entry and re-buy left on the market. I favour normal tours over all these re-buy tours. I haven't figured out yet what the big difference is between re-buy and re-entry other than that you get a bigger stack in re-buy if you re-buy as soon as allowed.

[donkbee]

Re-entry tournaments you usually pay rake again (each time you re-enter), rebuys you pay rake once.

[PokerKing]

Re-entry tournaments you usually pay rake again (each time you re-enter), rebuys you pay rake once.

Yes, so they are only a benefit to the house. So, will they slowly replace Re-buys? We'll see...

[Credsfan03]

I feel they are bad for the game unless in high roller games. Why should I pro get more shots than most of the field when they already have an edge. For those of you who are aware of the US online sites carbon offers re entry on all tournaments and there traffic has really began to suffer. Bovada does not offer re entry on any of there tournaments and has excelled to become the greatest American site and one of the greatest sites in the world. Carbon can barely hit there guarantee in there 100k while Bovadas 100k is getting around 200k each week.

[FlowJoe]

I feel it should be limited to 1 or 2 max so as to level playing field for all bankrolls!! Huge bankrolls dominate with unlimited reentries at middle and lower buy-ins!! HIGH ROLLERS ARE A DIFFERENT STORY AND I HAVE ZERO KNOWLEDGE, so I will defer!!!!
Muahahahah!!

[OngBonga]

If those with a huge bankroll dominate these games, then don't play them unless you have a huge bankroll, right?

I've had some good results with rebuys, but I play the opposite of how people say I should. I insta double my stack, and I'll addon, but I don't sit there shoving light and reloading. I'll play the rebuy stage tight, looking to double up with a tight range vs the crazy fuckers going wild. I'll rebuy if forced to, up to the point that a rebuy stack is worth 20bb+, at which point I'll abandon the game if I bust. But it's not my intention to double up or reload, I just want to double up and am happy to have a way back into the game if I get sucked or coolered.

Prizes are immense relative to buy in, and bubble prizes are usually at least 7x BI, so if I've just kept it to the 3x BI, then cashing is already a decent return, and it just gets better from there.

I think too many people just think the right play is to go wild, but most who take this approach are not rolled sufficiently to play this method optimally.

[PokerKing]

If those with a huge bankroll dominate these games, then don't play them unless you have a huge bankroll, right?

I've had some good results with rebuys, but I play the opposite of how people say I should. I insta double my stack, and I'll addon, but I don't sit there shoving light and reloading. I'll play the rebuy stage tight, looking to double up with a tight range vs the crazy fuckers going wild. I'll rebuy if forced to, up to the point that a rebuy stack is worth 20bb+, at which point I'll abandon the game if I bust. But it's not my intention to double up or reload, I just want to double up and am happy to have a way back into the game if I get sucked or coolered.

Prizes are immense relative to buy in, and bubble prizes are usually at least 7x BI, so if I've just kept it to the 3x BI, then cashing is already a decent return, and it just gets better from there.

I think too many people just think the right play is to go wild, but most who take this approach are not rolled sufficiently to play this method optimally.

Good post.

It's not that I play many Rebuys, but if I do, I do it like you, trying to build up a stack, and then always take an add-on. The only difference, I don't always insta double my stack

If I bust and a rebuy would give me less than 10bb, I'll leave the game. I'm not lucky enough to get back from that spot

[sah_24]

Horrid for the overall game , and as someone else already said just look at what carbon and merge has done to their player pool compared to Bovada which continues to grow ! The fish just go broke too fast , and it is bad for even the pros in the long run because it kills the games !

[FlowJoe]

If those with a huge bankroll dominate these games, then don't play them unless you have a huge bankroll, right?

I've had some good results with rebuys, but I play the opposite of how people say I should. I insta double my stack, and I'll addon, but I don't sit there shoving light and reloading. I'll play the rebuy stage tight, looking to double up with a tight range vs the crazy fuckers going wild. I'll rebuy if forced to, up to the point that a rebuy stack is worth 20bb+, at which point I'll abandon the game if I bust. But it's not my intention to double up or reload, I just want to double up and am happy to have a way back into the game if I get sucked or coolered.

Prizes are immense relative to buy in, and bubble prizes are usually at least 7x BI, so if I've just kept it to the 3x BI, then cashing is already a decent return, and it just gets better from there.

I think too many people just think the right play is to go wild, but most who take this approach are not rolled sufficiently to play this method optimally.

OK well, first I thought this thread was about re-entries not rebuys (online I assume you are talking about). Rebuys online are different and one should stack up as they wish IMO. But at brick and mortar RE_ENTRY tournaments where the juice is also needed which ups the expense, your suggestion is to not play without a big bankroll????? OK that's not an option at least for me. So the question was are they good for the game, again I still feel that they are NOT at the low and mid level! Your methodology while interesting didn't at all address the OP's question!! The big bankroll mentality to just BOMB and re-enter which skews the play and IMO makes the opening levels more BINGO~! Just my opinion, therefore I Stand with BAD FOR THE GAME!! The bigger pool is great but re-entries should be limited not unlimited!!

[OngBonga]

Yeah ok if OP is talking about bricks and mortar re-entry games, I misinterpreted his post.

But the idea of not playing the game, as blunt as that seems, remains. Seems to me that these mega bankroll guys who are crushing the game are sufficiently rolled for the stakes they're playing, while those they blow out of the water are not. If the buy in is a big deal, then you're out of your depth. That's bankroll management, not mockery.

Is it good for the game? It's good for these poker pros that people who disregard bankroll management are playing their stakes. It might not be good for the lower stakes player who thinks he's rolled for the game he's playing when he's not.

The point is, a $50 re-entry game is going to require a larger bankroll than a $50 freezeout. If you don't accept this, then you're a fish. And fish are great for poker.

When I say don't play these games, I'm saying don't be that fish who's playing out of his depth.

[Credsfan03]

Rebuys you can immediately double your stack and add on at some point. Re entries you get a starting chip stack and when you bust you can pay the entry fee again and get the same starting stack. For example this weekend carbon has a $200+15 125k gtd tournament with a 10k starting stack. If you get knocked out then you can pay $200+15 to get another 10k chips. For those of you non Americans you might not know much about these tournaments since pokerstars does not use them to my knowledge. The game carbon is hosting this weekend you can re enter for the first four hours. With blinds going up every 15 minutes there will be a point where you can buy in and get less then 10 bbs. Many regs will fire 5+ bullets during the game (especially towards the end of the re entry stage) to try to basically buy a big stack. In a lot of cases live tournaments are starting to adapt to this format since they can rake in more money. The pros with big bankrolls and rich fish will act much like the regs on carbon do. It affects the casual players who try to satellite into these big games. Why would a casual player want to play these tournaments when they know that players that already have an edge can have many more chances then they do? Some would argue that wealthy fish make re entries valuable because they can add a lot of money to the pool. I actually think it decreases the edge a good player has over these wealthy fish since they can basically buy a stack and anybody can be dangerous with a large amount of chips. We need to do away with re entries, limit the amount of times people can re enter, or decrease the amount of time in a tournament that re entries can take place.

[Credsfan03]

Here are a couple of pros views on re entry tournaments.
http://www.chrismoorman.com/reentry-tournaments/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0w6LLY5Ddk Funny how a lot of the pros love re entries

[OngBonga]

Many regs will fire 5+ bullets during the game

If this is the average, and is necessary to maintain a level playing field, then those who play $200 re-entry games should be rolled the same as someone playing a $1k freezeout.

I wouldn't touch a $200 re-entry game if I was only rolled for $200 freezeouts.

[OngBonga]

If I were a re-entry pro, I'd be looking to identify those who are uncomfortable with the format, and exploit them. That's not being a bully, or a wannabe highroller or anything, that's me playing poker, looking for every edge I can find.

Don't play these games if you're not comfortable playing vs higher rolled regs who will not sweat at losing 5 buyins.

[Poker Orifice]

Some would argue that wealthy fish make re entries valuable because they can add a lot of money to the pool. I actually think it decreases the edge a good player has over these wealthy fish since they can basically buy a stack and anybody can be dangerous with a large amount of chips.

So wealthy fish with big stacks are dangerous? How can that possibly be true?

[Poker Orifice]

I think too many people just think the right play is to go wild, but most who take this approach are not rolled sufficiently to play this method optimally.

How do we know this? How can we possibly make this assumption?

I find very often (on most sites) while playing a 'rebuy' we are going to be on the same table for that first hour. There's an advantage to getting more chips in play on your table (if you actually have an edge on the field that is).


rebuys & re-entries. Big difference. Not sure why rebuys got introduced in this thread?

[OngBonga]

I think...

I don't know. I make this assumption because I'm assuming that a lot of people think that to play a $10 re-entry or rebuy, you need to be rolled for $10 mtts. This is not the case.

Yeah I brought rebuys up, sorry about that.

As for this...

There's an advantage to getting more chips in play on your table

Only if you're not paying for them.

[donkbee]

Only if you're not paying for them.

Presumably you'd be getting them in the middle in +EV spots and if it doesn't work out, you can get them again later on in the tournament if you stay at the table. So tilting when you get moved though :/

Re-entries you start again at a different table.

[Tom1559]

In my view re-entries are bad for the game. I am not too keen on re-buys but have come to terms with them but re-entries I am struggling to reconcile with the principles of poker.

[Poker Orifice]

I don't know. I make this assumption because I'm assuming that a lot of people think that to play a $10 re-entry or rebuy, you need to be rolled for $10 mtts. This is not the case.

Yeah I brought rebuys up, sorry about that.

As for this...



Only if you're not paying for them.

Whether it's a re-entry or just regular freezeout, I don't think it changes anything as far as BRM guidelines go. It's quite common for people to play a re-entry 'once' & not re-enter whereas if you're doing that in rebuys it is much different scenario & a losing one at that.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen good players splashing around during the rebuy period, often easily making ~5 rebuys but also very often ended up extremely deepstacked heading into the remainder of the tournament.
Before I had much of a clue as far as rebuy tournament strategy goes, I couldn't see how this could be a good idea (ie. "those donks are getting a shot at those chips w/o having to pay for them") but after watching a couple vids. & doing some reading (& watching good players on my tables) I thought otherwise. (actually I think the very first rebuy strat. vids. I watched were here on FTR... a $3r/a in I believe 5parts).

[Poker Orifice]

In my view re-entries are bad for the game. I am not too keen on re-buys but have come to terms with them but re-entries I am struggling to reconcile with the principles of poker.

So you don't like it when other players in the tourney are 're-entering'? ... & as tourney progresses many seem to continue to do so despite getting shallower stacks each time they do. (have seen them still re-entering to get a 10bb stack... errm why not buy into another mtt ?)

[dombo]

Agree with PO.

[drmcboy]

The only real problem with re-entries is that the kind of people that think re entry gives 'pros' a big advantage are the same people you really want playing poker tournaments. It is poor thinking (unless your goal is to "win" rather than win money) but fish by definition often think poorly. If you have an event that would have had 100 people, but the worst 5 stay home because it is a re-entry, you have hurt everyone's EV in ways that are hard to measure.

Here in vegas, almost everyone has gone to re-entry for dailys/weeklys except for the Wynn which has a 200 RB on saturdays. It quickly became the biggest weekly tourney in town after starting from almost no base a couple years ago. For special events, it depends on the venue, but RE is more common that no RE. Our online sites do not have RE yet, but I keep waiting for someone to figure out it would work. It takes forever to implement new features (supposedly due to the gaming commission) so that may be why. I expect most US facing sites in the future will have it and to be using my pro edge to buy into the USCOOP PLO event 11 times.

[joker131]

id rather re-entry. not so many fish. u get players rebuying as soon as possible with rebuy and throwing them in with any 2 live cards, really annoying no good saying wait for postion and good hands as any cards can hit, unless u can afford at least 3 or 4 rebuys I suggeast playing re-entry tornys. I play $5 re entry mtt at party and wilim hll most go to level 10 or 12 before late reg end.

[JoeShowdown]

I like them. The action was crazy at Bay 101 this week due to the 1 time reentry option. They lowered the buyin from 10k with no rebuys to $7500 with an option to enter 2 times. It has made the pros like Negreanu actually pay more into the prize pool than 2 years ago because they will gamble it up late on day1a to either get a decent stack or just re-enter fresh on day1b. Satellite winners enjoy it because the pros are gambling it up although facing them twice is tough, the first bullet is easier money than if they were on 1 bullet.

[Poker Orifice]

I like them. The action was crazy at Bay 101 this week due to the 1 time reentry option. They lowered the buyin from 10k with no rebuys to $7500 with an option to enter 2 times. It has made the pros like Negreanu actually pay more into the prize pool than 2 years ago because they will gamble it up late on day1a to either get a decent stack or just re-enter fresh on day1b. Satellite winners enjoy it because the pros are gambling it up although facing them twice is tough, the first bullet is easier money than if they were on 1 bullet.

ah I got that Nice subtle bragpost imo (obv.)

[JoeShowdown]

bragpost? What am I bragging about? That I live close to Bay 101 and was there last week when the WPT was playing? I wish I played this year, but I had bad set over set luck in a satellite.

[firbster]

I hate them they can be costly if you tilt and cant get your self to get away been my down fall

[woohoo sue]

since the beginning of reentry/rebuy I've disliked them....they allow for more bingo plays and that is not good for poker..that said I have been enjoying the ones with late registration attached...gty s with very low buyins allow for a jumpin and scoop effect .....but still makes me looking at the rebuys some players commit to in one game. I personally, when looking for a poker game, look for smaller late reg times and limited rebuys/addons for the a more purist poker play. I've given up finding one without this feature anymore..its so sad. I play live so infrequently but I'm bummed to hear this form of game has infected it too.

[vger76]

I know some have the opinion that if you are going to play a R+A, you need to plan on at least 5 rebuys, plus the addon. I personally don't like the rebuy/reentrys online because most people shove any 2 for BINGO vs poker. But that is the nature of the beast these days vs freezeouts.
I was playing live once, this guy was late showing up, shoved with rags, and then wanted to re-enter. It was a freezeout and he didnt even pay attention to the game before he sat down.

[jyms]

Those styles of play aren't about BINGO as you put it. It's about taking advantage of the game and trying to build a large stack in comparison to the blinds so after the add on period you can settle in to playing some good poker. THe more people doing that the bigger the stacks get at that table in relation to the other tables of the tournament.

[donkbee]

When I was playing MTTs more, I used to play rebuy hours like an idiot. I've since learned that rebuy hour isn't for punting stacks and trying to get it in as much as possible, it's still used for +EV spots

[OngBonga]

I have no idea why donkeys shoving any two cards is anything other than totally awesome.

[OngBonga]

Presumably you'd be getting them in the middle in +EV spots and if it doesn't work out, you can get them again later on in the tournament if you stay at the table. So tilting when you get moved though :/

Re-entries you start again at a different table.

Indeed, I'd say this is why it's so great that people are donking any two. If we have a tight stacking range, then we're usually getting it in good with the ability to rebuy if we bust. It's much easier to build a stack in rebuys if we play a solid game while most others play like shit.

[dombo]

I hate them they can be costly if you tilt and cant get your self to get away been my down fall

A stop loss is so important just make a plan how much you want to spend and stick to it.

[dombo]

I have no idea why donkeys shoving any two cards is anything other than totally awesome.

+1

[Credsfan03]

I should make myself more clear. I do not mind limited re entries. For example if you bust on day 1 you can come back the next day. I am not a fan of unlimited re entries where you see people firing over ten bullets in one game.

[dombo]

I should make myself more clear. I do not mind limited re entries. For example if you bust on day 1 you can come back the next day. I am not a fan of unlimited re entries where you see people firing over ten bullets in one game.

Why??? I think someone who uses 10 re-entry bullets on one tourney almost never is a good player.

[drmcboy]

Why??? I think someone who uses 10 re-entry bullets on one tourney almost never is a good player.

Or at least, they are not playing the bullets well. Many 'good' players feel like they are so awesome when they have chips they think spending 10x the BI and gambling in bad spots to try and get them makes sense.

ITT you see the reasons I have concerns about RE - it makes a lot of the players you want in tourneys uncomfortable.

Also, WSOP.com (NV) officially has at least one RE tourney now since my last post, expecting more.